Converters... You get what you pay for
12-23-2006, 09:36 PM
#101
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A hi-stall LU clutch doesnt know or even care if its behind a 3.0L v6 or a hi-po v8. The LU clutch seen above is used for cruising ONLY. It won't handle LU of any sort at medium throttle or WOT.
It takes only a few KW more to move a V8 at cruise than a buzz-box - so the argument is moot. At these power levels a 9.5" clutch is designed to hold, it should make little difference as to the peak power output of the vehicle. You try to hold it beyond its limits - THEN you see stuff like pictured in this thread.
You can play with high friction bonded compounds to increase holding power, like for towing etc.. But in the end, everything has its limits. 9.5" cltuches are STILL designed for cruising - not WOT or medium throttle LU.
You have to spend big bickes on a converter that will hold medium throttle 4th gear pulls and WOT if thats what you are after.
You can also over-pressurize a converter LU to the point it wears the bonded clutch lining from its plate. When it comes loose, all LU goes away and bits float around causing major loss in holding efficiency and eventually overheat. People need to realise its not a stick it in and forget scenario - its a balancing act of power and holding efficiency much like the bits in an engine.
It takes only a few KW more to move a V8 at cruise than a buzz-box - so the argument is moot. At these power levels a 9.5" clutch is designed to hold, it should make little difference as to the peak power output of the vehicle. You try to hold it beyond its limits - THEN you see stuff like pictured in this thread.
You can play with high friction bonded compounds to increase holding power, like for towing etc.. But in the end, everything has its limits. 9.5" cltuches are STILL designed for cruising - not WOT or medium throttle LU.
You have to spend big bickes on a converter that will hold medium throttle 4th gear pulls and WOT if thats what you are after.
You can also over-pressurize a converter LU to the point it wears the bonded clutch lining from its plate. When it comes loose, all LU goes away and bits float around causing major loss in holding efficiency and eventually overheat. People need to realise its not a stick it in and forget scenario - its a balancing act of power and holding efficiency much like the bits in an engine.
Last edited by MNR-0; 12-23-2006 at 09:44 PM.
12-23-2006, 10:13 PM
#102
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So: to sum up:
1.Aftermarket converters are restalled smaller engine converters.
2.Some try to cut corners by reusing junkyard or small engine stock components. Some use the best upgrades but still it is a money game and you get what you pay for.
3.Other times, the incorrectly centered hub,. etc...can cause a particular converter to fail while the basic idea/concept is still valid.
4.Install of an aftermarket unit in a stock a4 tends to promote, burning/slipping....NEED a tranny cooler to offset effect.
5.How you drive, vehicle weight, other factors will determine if your TC lasts 1 wk or 10 yrs.
REAL WORLD: Got a cheapo restall? Don't go ragging on it every red light.
Race all the time? Get the best possible TC. The $500 you save will cost you a $1500 tranny rebuild.
1.Aftermarket converters are restalled smaller engine converters.
2.Some try to cut corners by reusing junkyard or small engine stock components. Some use the best upgrades but still it is a money game and you get what you pay for.
3.Other times, the incorrectly centered hub,. etc...can cause a particular converter to fail while the basic idea/concept is still valid.
4.Install of an aftermarket unit in a stock a4 tends to promote, burning/slipping....NEED a tranny cooler to offset effect.
5.How you drive, vehicle weight, other factors will determine if your TC lasts 1 wk or 10 yrs.
REAL WORLD: Got a cheapo restall? Don't go ragging on it every red light.
Race all the time? Get the best possible TC. The $500 you save will cost you a $1500 tranny rebuild.
12-23-2006, 11:13 PM
#103
yes we only use new parts and you are correct the lockup clutch was never intended to take WOT but cruising , Which isn't surprising considering if you compare the lock clutch to a standard trans clutch its being ask to take the same abuse at WOT locked as the standard clutch and its 10 times smaller and the standard may have as much as 1000 pounds apply pressure compared to the 300 psi or so the auto has .In fact the only plus the auto lu clutch has in that scenario is its submerged in fluid which helps in cooling .
And all that based on the stock area converter clutch .
Now as you stated with the lockup clutch used normally just cruising and since that was its intent it was made as a gas saver , then there would be little difference between a full size clutch and the smaller ones since the torque to keep the vehical moving would be minimally different and tip in it unlocks and tip out it unlocks which is the way it was made to work ,
Now PWM is a different story the smaller clutch is at a major disadvantage because of it smaller size the amount of slip is preprogrammed based on the stock converter clutch and slip with identical settings would be much greater and with the smaller surface area heat will be much greater and converter clutch failure much sooner thats why it not only should be but must be eliminated either mechanically or by tune but preferably both since just doing it mechanically may cause clutch to full apply at a lower speed than would be ideal so really both are needed. You would want to raise the lockup enable speed.
As for the PWM and the why well its a bit more complicated than smoothing out the lockup apply its all about the never ending search for efficiency for the govs min fuel requirements to avoid the taxes imposed on gas guzzlers if you limit converter slip or loss at lower speeds then you end up with better around town numbers is what its all about and it is a balancing act between durability and that by design.
Ok well i am a trans guy not a converter guy so if i have stated anything incorrect I opologize and the converter guys are welcome to correct me.
If you want to set you PCM to lockup under WOT which I personally fail to understand why you would since you would loose torque multiplier then you should consider a multi clutch unit for your purpose for the additonal holding area just like you add additional clutches to the trans clutch packs .
But generally for small diameter clutches the following in the order listed should be done
1- disable the PWM Which we do on all our units
2-Increase the apply and release fluid feed size same as above
3-Remove if present the encapsulated check ball from the input shaft though with the feed holes enlarged this isnt such a big deal .
4- add a large cooler
On the matter of the converter this is about im more concerned with the hub pictures and gaulding at the i beleave its the stator looks like there were some clearance issues of some sort I can say the trans was full of aluminum and there was nothing inside the trans that it could have possibly come from we took the trans apart from end to end and studied every part ,
But then again Im not a converter guy.
And all that based on the stock area converter clutch .
Now as you stated with the lockup clutch used normally just cruising and since that was its intent it was made as a gas saver , then there would be little difference between a full size clutch and the smaller ones since the torque to keep the vehical moving would be minimally different and tip in it unlocks and tip out it unlocks which is the way it was made to work ,
Now PWM is a different story the smaller clutch is at a major disadvantage because of it smaller size the amount of slip is preprogrammed based on the stock converter clutch and slip with identical settings would be much greater and with the smaller surface area heat will be much greater and converter clutch failure much sooner thats why it not only should be but must be eliminated either mechanically or by tune but preferably both since just doing it mechanically may cause clutch to full apply at a lower speed than would be ideal so really both are needed. You would want to raise the lockup enable speed.
As for the PWM and the why well its a bit more complicated than smoothing out the lockup apply its all about the never ending search for efficiency for the govs min fuel requirements to avoid the taxes imposed on gas guzzlers if you limit converter slip or loss at lower speeds then you end up with better around town numbers is what its all about and it is a balancing act between durability and that by design.
Ok well i am a trans guy not a converter guy so if i have stated anything incorrect I opologize and the converter guys are welcome to correct me.
If you want to set you PCM to lockup under WOT which I personally fail to understand why you would since you would loose torque multiplier then you should consider a multi clutch unit for your purpose for the additonal holding area just like you add additional clutches to the trans clutch packs .
But generally for small diameter clutches the following in the order listed should be done
1- disable the PWM Which we do on all our units
2-Increase the apply and release fluid feed size same as above
3-Remove if present the encapsulated check ball from the input shaft though with the feed holes enlarged this isnt such a big deal .
4- add a large cooler
On the matter of the converter this is about im more concerned with the hub pictures and gaulding at the i beleave its the stator looks like there were some clearance issues of some sort I can say the trans was full of aluminum and there was nothing inside the trans that it could have possibly come from we took the trans apart from end to end and studied every part ,
But then again Im not a converter guy.
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Last edited by performabuilt; 12-23-2006 at 11:42 PM.
12-23-2006, 11:53 PM
#104
Originally Posted by 2002_Z28_Six_Speed
Fuddle,
Can you please explain the differences between the clutch which you use in many hi power applications and this take out clutch from a 2.2L 120HP Cavalier?
Your clutch
Take out Cavalier
Notice that the carbon CERMANIC survived the Cavaliers wailing horsepower but did not stand up to a V8 motor.
If this is the clutch you use I know a local shop that will sell them to you for 2 dollars a unit. As many as you need.
Can you please explain the differences between the clutch which you use in many hi power applications and this take out clutch from a 2.2L 120HP Cavalier?
Your clutch
Take out Cavalier
Notice that the carbon CERMANIC survived the Cavaliers wailing horsepower but did not stand up to a V8 motor.
If this is the clutch you use I know a local shop that will sell them to you for 2 dollars a unit. As many as you need.
12-24-2006, 12:13 AM
#105
The clutches are extremely similar. However, with the replaced clutch material, and the precision tolerances on surface, we simply don't see clutch failure under normal circumstances with this, the Performance Series converter. As has been stated, and quite accurately, the clutch is used when cruising, NOTHING more. It has nothing to do with WOT and if everything else is taken care of, such as adequate apply pressure, and removal of PWM if necessary, you simply won't run into a problem.
If clutch surface is what you are looking for, look into our HP Series converters(HP/Street and HP/Race). These converters use a billet cover, and have considerably more clutch surface than the competition. For an example, look at #2 here: http://www.fuddleracing.com/SeeingTh...ndMirrors.html . That is a direct comparison between clutch surfaces in our HP series converters and the competition. Those converters are where to go if you want clutch size.
Also, we have never marketed the Performance Series converter as being anything but a high quality converter that, if used correctly, will handle reasonable power. We have dozens of customers running deep into the 10s with this converter. However, we acknowledge that it has its limitations. It probably won't handle a stroker, and it probably won't handle a blower. That is exactly why the HP/Street Series was developed. It was designed to be the best, and to do so, clutch size had to be significantly increased.
Anyone who is currently running this converter, don't let anyone convince you that your converter is in any danger. There is a reason we offer the warranty we do. Largely because we simply don't have to use it often as our converters hold up extremely well. Hell, I didn't even upgrade to the HP/Street until I put a stroker in my T/A.
If clutch surface is what you are looking for, look into our HP Series converters(HP/Street and HP/Race). These converters use a billet cover, and have considerably more clutch surface than the competition. For an example, look at #2 here: http://www.fuddleracing.com/SeeingTh...ndMirrors.html . That is a direct comparison between clutch surfaces in our HP series converters and the competition. Those converters are where to go if you want clutch size.
Also, we have never marketed the Performance Series converter as being anything but a high quality converter that, if used correctly, will handle reasonable power. We have dozens of customers running deep into the 10s with this converter. However, we acknowledge that it has its limitations. It probably won't handle a stroker, and it probably won't handle a blower. That is exactly why the HP/Street Series was developed. It was designed to be the best, and to do so, clutch size had to be significantly increased.
Anyone who is currently running this converter, don't let anyone convince you that your converter is in any danger. There is a reason we offer the warranty we do. Largely because we simply don't have to use it often as our converters hold up extremely well. Hell, I didn't even upgrade to the HP/Street until I put a stroker in my T/A.
12-24-2006, 12:22 AM
#106
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Originally Posted by buffman
GMRacer13 are you going to bash performabuilt also cause they use an adapter ring also (based on the picture on their site).
12-24-2006, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by GMRACER13
I'm not "bashing" anybody. The fact is the small lock-up clutch found in a stock 4-cyl convertor can not take the weight of an f-body. Think of the clutch as a lever. The lock-up clutch in the stock convertor is close to the same width as the one found in these 4-cyl convertors with adapter rings. However, the stock torque convertor is much larger in diameter compaired to these little 4-cyl convertors. The larger diameter gives the clutch more leverage in adition to having more surface area. Give me a lever long enough and I could lift the World. I have nothing to gain from "bashing" companies on the internet. I don't sell or manufacture torque convertors. I have, however, seen first hand how the majority of these budget stall convertors are manufactured and I wouldn't put one in my car or any of my friend's cars. It's your dime, do with it what you will.
understandable. I went back and looked at the pics, as I was on the old reliable laptop earlier when reading, so I couldnt view them. That thing doesnt look very inviting to have in a TC
I'd hate to see how long it'd last in a 4000lb beast such as mine.Performabuilt, got any pics of your TC companies,LU clutch??
From what i've been reading over the past few days, I dont think i've read about a failure caused from any particular tc company using the 4cyl front cover. I think more or less you'd agree that failures come from using junk/inadequate parts inside them. from what I recall the average weight savings by not using a billet front cover is around 4lbs on a 9.5" converter...
12-24-2006, 01:36 AM
#108
That would be correct 4-5 lbs , seems small but on the other hand ever played with a centrifuge or a bucket swinging put four more pounds of water in it and you might be surprised multiply that by 4000 rpm and you would be amazed , as for the pics sure and they would look not so different from the converter shown , But then thats not the big issue I see with the converter though the most obvious problem, but it has and underlying cause no one has noted, As 1 and only stated the shifts were firm so no pressure problem there but the filter had something in it that had nothing to do with the converter clutch lots of gound up aluminum yet the trans had no damaged parts no washers or pump ground up no case damage nothing ,As for our converter we have not had a dissatisfied customer to date and for those that do feel the need ? to lockup under throttle we will have a converter for that also in the coming week, But as i said since hp is a calculation of torque pushes a given amount of weight a certain distance in a given time then taking away torque multiplication by engaging the clutch racing would seem point less , Yes I know on the dyno you get higher hp numbers but on the track you get LOWER ET numbers with and auto and the converter is the why since with the expanded gears without it and auto would frankly fall on its face, ever drove and auto with the converter clutch stuck on? I have and it sucks.
Now on the matter of this converter our trans even though the filter was crammed with aluminum dust, the trans itself was fine other than some screens full of aluminum dust restricting the solenoids, But even though the problem was not with our trans and you can believe this if it was we would say it was and move to correct it since we are not restricted by budgets we are not tied to the bottom line like some may be ,today I had brunch with my boss and as he says we have bigger plans and to achieve those we have to make the best trans and converters available and so we shall.
We do strongly suggest using our converter with our trans, we don't require it and as 1 and only says we looked after him anyway, but we stand behind our trans and we believe in our converters other wise we would be suggesting that you use someone else's with our trans. Our profit margin on our converters is tiny and is no motivation to push them, We offer them because we want to be sure our customers at least have the option of knowing that when they buy a trans from us they can also get and excellent converter and that we will stand behind both and we do.
Our converter prices are low and when the new style comes out so will they be , But that, in and of itself is deceiving since our cost and sale price are so close to each other, Personally I would have introduced and would introduce the newer converters at a much higher price and avoid the comparisons to the lower priced units that are out there, but though I do answer tech and decide where we market, I do not determine how things are marketed or the prices, that is up to the people who crunch the numbers and decide the best marketing technics, I just come on this and other forums answer questions and help anyone that ask whether there may be sale in it or not.
PerformaBuilt is a very different company we are in this for the long haul and we could not afford to make any inferior product and we do not. As I have said over and over we are new to this venue for sales but we are not new to the transmission business, In fact I would dare say there are few if any on this forum who have been around so long,
We are a different company with a new plan which put simply is the customer and there needs are no1 which is why im here for everyone on this forum everyday and I help you even if you bought from someone else, We trash no one we only state the facts as we see them,
But its late and Im off to bed I hope everyone is having and excellent holiday
performabuilt
Now on the matter of this converter our trans even though the filter was crammed with aluminum dust, the trans itself was fine other than some screens full of aluminum dust restricting the solenoids, But even though the problem was not with our trans and you can believe this if it was we would say it was and move to correct it since we are not restricted by budgets we are not tied to the bottom line like some may be ,today I had brunch with my boss and as he says we have bigger plans and to achieve those we have to make the best trans and converters available and so we shall.
We do strongly suggest using our converter with our trans, we don't require it and as 1 and only says we looked after him anyway, but we stand behind our trans and we believe in our converters other wise we would be suggesting that you use someone else's with our trans. Our profit margin on our converters is tiny and is no motivation to push them, We offer them because we want to be sure our customers at least have the option of knowing that when they buy a trans from us they can also get and excellent converter and that we will stand behind both and we do.
Our converter prices are low and when the new style comes out so will they be , But that, in and of itself is deceiving since our cost and sale price are so close to each other, Personally I would have introduced and would introduce the newer converters at a much higher price and avoid the comparisons to the lower priced units that are out there, but though I do answer tech and decide where we market, I do not determine how things are marketed or the prices, that is up to the people who crunch the numbers and decide the best marketing technics, I just come on this and other forums answer questions and help anyone that ask whether there may be sale in it or not.
PerformaBuilt is a very different company we are in this for the long haul and we could not afford to make any inferior product and we do not. As I have said over and over we are new to this venue for sales but we are not new to the transmission business, In fact I would dare say there are few if any on this forum who have been around so long,
We are a different company with a new plan which put simply is the customer and there needs are no1 which is why im here for everyone on this forum everyday and I help you even if you bought from someone else, We trash no one we only state the facts as we see them,
But its late and Im off to bed I hope everyone is having and excellent holiday
performabuilt
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Last edited by performabuilt; 12-24-2006 at 02:13 AM.
12-24-2006, 02:47 AM
#109
This situation is unfortunate. If there were a problem with the converter itself that caused destruction of the transmission, Fuddle would have taken financial responsibility at that point to fix the transmission. We take care of our customers.
As far as the accusations from the transmission builder that this converter failed and sent aluminum through the transmission, remember that Fuddle Racing never had the opportunity to see inside this converter. If the transmission builder's accusations were true, and metal from a prematurely failed converter was sent through the transmission causing any damage, Fuddle Racing would have accepted financial responsibility for the damage. Unfortunately for the customer, any evidence of failure is highly tainted with the converter having been opened and handled by another company.
As far as the accusations from the transmission builder that this converter failed and sent aluminum through the transmission, remember that Fuddle Racing never had the opportunity to see inside this converter. If the transmission builder's accusations were true, and metal from a prematurely failed converter was sent through the transmission causing any damage, Fuddle Racing would have accepted financial responsibility for the damage. Unfortunately for the customer, any evidence of failure is highly tainted with the converter having been opened and handled by another company.
12-24-2006, 03:06 AM
#110
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this thread needs to be locked for many reasons.
1st off everyone makes mistakes (the companies fault)
2nd if you don't let someone try to make it right, you can't bitch (in general)
3rd MOST of the time you get what you pay for.
4th most name brand TC failure is probably due to incorrect instaltion, bad tunning, bad driver, or not buying the right TC for your applaction.
5th this thread hasn't helped out any LS1 tech'ers in a while, I have seen good and bad things said about every name brand tc company in the auto section and you know why, read the first 4 over agian with number 4 being most of the time.
please don't miss understand me I am not pointing out certian people in this thread, my statment is in general. now performabuilt and fuddle lets just get a long and have a good Christmas.
1st off everyone makes mistakes (the companies fault)
2nd if you don't let someone try to make it right, you can't bitch (in general)
3rd MOST of the time you get what you pay for.
4th most name brand TC failure is probably due to incorrect instaltion, bad tunning, bad driver, or not buying the right TC for your applaction.
5th this thread hasn't helped out any LS1 tech'ers in a while, I have seen good and bad things said about every name brand tc company in the auto section and you know why, read the first 4 over agian with number 4 being most of the time.
please don't miss understand me I am not pointing out certian people in this thread, my statment is in general. now performabuilt and fuddle lets just get a long and have a good Christmas.
12-24-2006, 03:10 AM
#111
Originally Posted by orangefun
this thread needs to be locked for many reasons.
1st off everyone makes mistakes (the companies fault)
2nd if you don't let someone try to make it right, you can't bitch (in general)
3rd MOST of the time you get what you pay for.
4th most name brand TC failure is probably due to incorrect instaltion, bad tunning, bad driver, or not buying the right TC for your applaction.
5th this thread hasn't helped out any LS1 tech'ers in a while, I have seen good and bad things said about every name brand tc company in the auto section and you know why, read the first 4 over agian with number 4 being most of the time.
please don't miss understand me I am not pointing out certian people in this thread, my statment is in general. now performabuilt and fuddle lets just get a long and have a good Christmas.
1st off everyone makes mistakes (the companies fault)
2nd if you don't let someone try to make it right, you can't bitch (in general)
3rd MOST of the time you get what you pay for.
4th most name brand TC failure is probably due to incorrect instaltion, bad tunning, bad driver, or not buying the right TC for your applaction.
5th this thread hasn't helped out any LS1 tech'ers in a while, I have seen good and bad things said about every name brand tc company in the auto section and you know why, read the first 4 over agian with number 4 being most of the time.
please don't miss understand me I am not pointing out certian people in this thread, my statment is in general. now performabuilt and fuddle lets just get a long and have a good Christmas.
Merry Christmas.
12-24-2006, 09:19 AM
#112
If you want to set you PCM to lockup under WOT which I personally fail to understand why you would since you would loose torque multiplier
this thread needs to be locked for many reasons...
5th this thread hasn't helped out any LS1 tech'ers in a while...
5th this thread hasn't helped out any LS1 tech'ers in a while...
12-24-2006, 10:46 AM
#113
Good Morning, First we at PerformaBuilt have no issue with anyone ,We have called no name nor down graded any company , I simply stated the fact we tore down the trans to inspect, We found 2 things aluminum and clutch material. We then proceeded to care fully inspect the transmission for the source of both, There was no source.
We dont attack companies call names and in fact I have tried to stay out of this thread in general, My only purpose in even posting in here last night was to address a question previously posted concerning our converter clutch in our own units and to post what my understanding of converter clutch operation is intended for.
On the matter of the advantage in certain situations of locking the clutch such as with spray I can understand that though Personally I would probably choose a tighter or lower stall converter to try and achieve that rather than locking the clutch and on the flip side if I was trying to get both worlds I would probably buy a multidisk type converter just for that purpose, Since as I earlier stated the lockup clutch is much smaller than a manual clutch and disk yet you would never put a 4 inch disk clutch in front of a T6 and honestly expect it to hold for any extended period of time At wide open throttle and physics are always bound by the same rule, Friction, Area and Apply pressure equals holding ability. The lockup clutch is at a major disadvantage in all three areas comparably. Lock up clutches whether in 9 INCH or THe factory size nether were intended to be used in that way. I have seen where the lockup valve in pump has become stuck before with a factory size converter and you could still with effort keep the car running while holding the brakes and giving some gas and pulling through the clutch, Try that with a manual it wont happen.
I also though until recently have not posted in this thread I have watched it carefully and it has been a very informative thread much more so than a bashing thread in fact if it was edited a little and all the informative information taken to the top it would make a very good sticky for general information about converters
And finally on the matter of the converter with the pics posted perhaps it was built on a bad day, stuff happens its good to see the sponsor would be willing to repair or replace the converter that does indeed show character, I'm sure in time as with every sponsor here we to will have a converter to fail for some reason since nothing man made is perfect whether its a converter on here or the next xbox or play station some of you are hoping to get or have gotten for Christmas its just a fact of life. In fact I myself just bought a new razer phone just the other day had it for a couple days and it locked up would not make or receive calls and I had to wait in line at a service center to have them look at it then replace it , Failures in anything are a fact of life and its how the manufacturer handles them thatS most important .
Since we have been on this board and you can look at every post we have made never have we insulted , Bashed or in anyway put down any sponsor or non sponsors product
Even on a few occasions where we have been hit at a little we did not get into the game since it would serve no purpose for us to Do that and we try to keep our Business practice strictly professional , We do and will continue to offer help to anyone whether they bought anything from us or not as everyone here is aware we do,
Again as to the converter this thread was started over I will not say that the manufacturer makes a bad product or even a poor product yes there were defiantly issue with that particular one, but I have also read many post on many boards of people who were very happy with there products which proves that this would not normally be the case.
So I will let everyone know there is no battle between PerformaBuilt and The converter manufacturer or with any one on this board our only goal is and was to take care of our customer, And thats all i will say about that in this post and any future post in this thread from PerformaBuilt will be strictly techinical in nature.
Thanks and I hope everyone is having a happy holiday
We dont attack companies call names and in fact I have tried to stay out of this thread in general, My only purpose in even posting in here last night was to address a question previously posted concerning our converter clutch in our own units and to post what my understanding of converter clutch operation is intended for.
On the matter of the advantage in certain situations of locking the clutch such as with spray I can understand that though Personally I would probably choose a tighter or lower stall converter to try and achieve that rather than locking the clutch and on the flip side if I was trying to get both worlds I would probably buy a multidisk type converter just for that purpose, Since as I earlier stated the lockup clutch is much smaller than a manual clutch and disk yet you would never put a 4 inch disk clutch in front of a T6 and honestly expect it to hold for any extended period of time At wide open throttle and physics are always bound by the same rule, Friction, Area and Apply pressure equals holding ability. The lockup clutch is at a major disadvantage in all three areas comparably. Lock up clutches whether in 9 INCH or THe factory size nether were intended to be used in that way. I have seen where the lockup valve in pump has become stuck before with a factory size converter and you could still with effort keep the car running while holding the brakes and giving some gas and pulling through the clutch, Try that with a manual it wont happen.
I also though until recently have not posted in this thread I have watched it carefully and it has been a very informative thread much more so than a bashing thread in fact if it was edited a little and all the informative information taken to the top it would make a very good sticky for general information about converters
And finally on the matter of the converter with the pics posted perhaps it was built on a bad day, stuff happens its good to see the sponsor would be willing to repair or replace the converter that does indeed show character, I'm sure in time as with every sponsor here we to will have a converter to fail for some reason since nothing man made is perfect whether its a converter on here or the next xbox or play station some of you are hoping to get or have gotten for Christmas its just a fact of life. In fact I myself just bought a new razer phone just the other day had it for a couple days and it locked up would not make or receive calls and I had to wait in line at a service center to have them look at it then replace it , Failures in anything are a fact of life and its how the manufacturer handles them thatS most important .
Since we have been on this board and you can look at every post we have made never have we insulted , Bashed or in anyway put down any sponsor or non sponsors product
Even on a few occasions where we have been hit at a little we did not get into the game since it would serve no purpose for us to Do that and we try to keep our Business practice strictly professional , We do and will continue to offer help to anyone whether they bought anything from us or not as everyone here is aware we do,
Again as to the converter this thread was started over I will not say that the manufacturer makes a bad product or even a poor product yes there were defiantly issue with that particular one, but I have also read many post on many boards of people who were very happy with there products which proves that this would not normally be the case.
So I will let everyone know there is no battle between PerformaBuilt and The converter manufacturer or with any one on this board our only goal is and was to take care of our customer, And thats all i will say about that in this post and any future post in this thread from PerformaBuilt will be strictly techinical in nature.
Thanks and I hope everyone is having a happy holiday
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12-24-2006, 11:11 AM
#114
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I point out that performabuilt and fuddle have both given out very good info. and both have done a great job on being professials about this dicussion so thumbs up to both of you 
, some of this info should be rewriten for a sticky. I have learned a lot here, so thanks for that, and as I said before my statments were in general, but sleeping on it we shouldn't lock it, your right Ragtop99. Merry christmas everyone!!!!!!
I say all of the stalled auto guys should go out and give the road a gift for christmas
, some of this info should be rewriten for a sticky. I have learned a lot here, so thanks for that, and as I said before my statments were in general, but sleeping on it we shouldn't lock it, your right Ragtop99. Merry christmas everyone!!!!!!I say all of the stalled auto guys should go out and give the road a gift for christmas
12-24-2006, 11:49 AM
#115
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Originally Posted by 1jfuddle
Unfortunately for the customer, any evidence of failure is highly tainted with the converter having been opened and handled by another company.
12-24-2006, 12:05 PM
#116
Originally Posted by zspot98
Are you saying that the only way to determine if a converter is bad is for you to crack it open and make that determination? Can't another experianced tranny guy tell what happened as well as you? I guess, I would also be a little sceptical about sending a product back to the manufactuer, just for them to tell me that the reason this happened was due to my own mistakes. You have to look at this guys side too John. Let's say he did send the converter back to you and you said; "the converter didin't cause the tranny failure, but we'll gladly send you a new converter". Now he has to make a decision, put your stall back in another rebuilt tranny and hope the same thing doesn't happen or go another route. I would hope that anyone that has doubts about a companies product would attempt to get a second opinion. I know if a doctor said something serious was wrong with me, I'd probably go for a second opinion. Like stated in this thread, "people make mistakes".
12-24-2006, 12:32 PM
#117
On the matter of the advantage in certain situations of locking the clutch such as with spray I can understand that though Personally I would probably choose a tighter or lower stall converter to try and achieve that rather than locking the clutch and on the flip side if I was trying to get both worlds I would probably buy a multidisk type converter just for that purpose...
12-24-2006, 12:38 PM
#118
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Originally Posted by RagnZ
all this talk about fuddle has got me worried......i just got a 3400 fuddle hp street converter and i'm about to put it in tomorrow and on top of all that i'm sprayin a 125 shot.....i'll keep everyone posted on how things go with it.....i got it used out of a wrecked t/a with 500 miles on it...
12-24-2006, 01:27 PM
#119
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Originally Posted by Ragtop 99
I agree with you that a purpose built mult-disk converter is probably the best way to go. The advantage of it over a lower stall converter is that locked up there is no converter stretch and resulting loss of efficency. Also for the typical street rod, a higher stall multi-disk allows for a better NA performance off the bottle.
I've seen varying opionions on the use of multi-disk converters. There's the added weight, which drags down the efficiency of the fluid coupling. Also since the MD TCs use the inner OD to hold one or more of the steel plates, they will chatter over time. Chatter will get louder and the chatter comes from the new "extra" room/clearance the plates have made in the drive slots. Then we all know where that extra debri goes
To mr transmission ..
12-24-2006, 01:39 PM
#120
Well as they say theres a trade off for everything compromises are a must particularly since most of us are always doing everything we can to have our cake and eat it too.
Each person must try and figure out what there goal is and what they are willing to sacrifice as far as drivability and durability to get it. unfortunatley there is no one size fits all when it comes to performance parts, But then thats a good thing since if there was there would just be one company making them and ( WE WOULD BE THE ONLY COMPANY IN BUSINESS) That was a JOKE of course for any who don't have a sense of humor .
Each person must try and figure out what there goal is and what they are willing to sacrifice as far as drivability and durability to get it. unfortunatley there is no one size fits all when it comes to performance parts, But then thats a good thing since if there was there would just be one company making them and ( WE WOULD BE THE ONLY COMPANY IN BUSINESS) That was a JOKE of course for any who don't have a sense of humor .
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