Converters... You get what you pay for
12-23-2006, 08:49 AM
#82
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Originally Posted by Ragtop 99
Most of the clutch failures reported on this board are caused by the normal wear of routine driving and not because someone sprayed a 200 shot through a locked clutch. Unless the converter is being locked up at WOT by someone who changed the programming or installed a switch, it simply isn't going to see a lot of torque whether the car is heads & cam or stock. Look at the PCM programming. You simply can not get close to WOT without the clutch unlocking.
You can alter the friction properties of the clutch material and strength of the material, but having more surface area rather than less is more appealing to me. I've seen a number of different "superior" clutch materials fail over time in clutches with reduced surface area.
You can alter the friction properties of the clutch material and strength of the material, but having more surface area rather than less is more appealing to me. I've seen a number of different "superior" clutch materials fail over time in clutches with reduced surface area.
12-23-2006, 09:29 AM
#83
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Originally Posted by BlackHawk T/A
I've actually seen a trend with clutch failures on here - most of them are installed on the stock transmission and its trying to use PWM, which has to be a cause for wear I would think.
Im afraid longevity is bought at a price. Some converters have clutches designed to slip, but certainly ceramic and carbon clutches are materials selected NOT to.
12-23-2006, 10:31 AM
#84
Guys this was in a brand new Performabuilt level 3 tranny. I dont think line pressure was an issue. Evrything worked great, the shifts were extremely firm and chrisp. I had about 250 miles on the combo and i never saw temps higher than 180 degrees. Normally they was around 150. I was going down the hwy at 65mph when it started acting up. A weird noise was coming from i assume from the converter. It great that fuddle stands behind his product and best of luck to him. I just wanted to show people what exactally they are getting. Im just wanting to get my car back on the road at this point. It has been very frustrating, But i would like to thank Frank from Performabuilt once agian for helping me out in time of need.
12-23-2006, 12:14 PM
#86
Originally Posted by 1jfuddle
Actually, real world testing and R&D has shown this clutch's ability to handle even a well modified LS1 due to the demanding build process involved in controlling clutch surface, using the correct materials, and precision cover work. While the piston cannot house a clutch the size of our HP/Street (no converter we've seen does-including from your former employer), this clutch is more than capable of handling even well modified LS1 setups. Ask the hundreds of happy Fuddle Performance Series customers. They will beg to differ with your assessment. As stated, this converter has proven itself time and again in modified setups.
Yes, but you have forgotten the volume difference between a factory 298mm (GM V8 in 1995), and a 245mm converter. Significant volume is lost moving to a smaller converter, and, as such, pressure on the blades is never going to be the same as in a full diameter converter. Also, torque multiplication is at its greatest on initial impact on the blades ("JUST starting to take off").
I guess it is my turn to nit pick. Sorry.
We have more than 20 years of experience in building converters, and once again, we not only offer, but encourage our customers to take advantage of free refreshes under warranty. This means that our highest powered customers have their converters back after hard seasons to get a good once over. We have never seen deformation of the blades. Even on extreme setups.
Yes, but you have forgotten the volume difference between a factory 298mm (GM V8 in 1995), and a 245mm converter. Significant volume is lost moving to a smaller converter, and, as such, pressure on the blades is never going to be the same as in a full diameter converter. Also, torque multiplication is at its greatest on initial impact on the blades ("JUST starting to take off").
I guess it is my turn to nit pick. Sorry.
We have more than 20 years of experience in building converters, and once again, we not only offer, but encourage our customers to take advantage of free refreshes under warranty. This means that our highest powered customers have their converters back after hard seasons to get a good once over. We have never seen deformation of the blades. Even on extreme setups.
Aren't you only in your 20's or just out of it?
I guess they start early in your family.Look, if you ignore factor of safety you end up with what you just got. Broken parts. I get sick of people using the "IM THE WORLD" arguement and "THE FEW ARE THE SAME AS THE WHOLE argument." Just because it works for a couple of people don't mean it works in the real world.
Please post your research. As you have never release ANY research before but always claim to be out of state researching.
Further if you wish to talk about impulses and forces on the blades you need to look at more than just raw volume. The size ratio, flow speed, and speed ratio are all important. Just because you decrease the mean diameter doesn't mean you can use bottom of the barrel parts and expect it to hold up to modern cars.
12-23-2006, 12:48 PM
#87
Fuddle,
Can you please explain the differences between the clutch which you use in many hi power applications and this take out clutch from a 2.2L 120HP Cavalier?
Your clutch
Take out Cavalier
Notice that the carbon CERMANIC survived the Cavaliers wailing horsepower but did not stand up to a V8 motor.
If this is the clutch you use I know a local shop that will sell them to you for 2 dollars a unit. As many as you need.
Can you please explain the differences between the clutch which you use in many hi power applications and this take out clutch from a 2.2L 120HP Cavalier?
Your clutch
Take out Cavalier
Notice that the carbon CERMANIC survived the Cavaliers wailing horsepower but did not stand up to a V8 motor.
If this is the clutch you use I know a local shop that will sell them to you for 2 dollars a unit. As many as you need.
12-23-2006, 01:35 PM
#88
Originally Posted by 2002_Z28_Six_Speed
If this is the clutch you use I know a local shop that will sell them to you for 2 dollars a unit. As many as you need.
thanks to all the "experts" here.. a month ago I knew nothing about converters, now I know nothing, but am confused as well
...My TCI was an off the shelf, but "Designed" with the TBSS in mind according to what Trevor said..so much so that TCI themselves didn't know this particular model existed and I had to get the part number from trevor himself (ridiculous if you ask me) TCI's lock up clutch was not the issue, but a lack of either workmanship or inferior parts was, as a fin or two broke with only 175mi on it.. like previously stated before, you get what you pay for, my Vigilante 9.5" multiDisc 3plate was $900 and worth every penny as it drives flawlessly and performs the same at the track... "Everyday" driving (from what the "experts" have related to me, and as well as I have read is the enemy of the aftermarket converter), the thousands of cycles the clutch goes through, locking and unlocking is where the "better" companies (DailyDriven, not track Queens) seem to shine.. just sharing what I've learned through my mistakes and own research (amazing the drive one takes on when he is left to "fend" for himself, thanks to a "Lack of Customer Service from TCI) I am glad some have good experiences with them, i have not, nor have many friends, I gave them a shot and they could care less what they did to my Truck (5k mi 8mos old at that) never once offering as much as a new converter shipped out to replace the blown one, money off a new one (which I wouldn't have taken, but at least offer it)..just cast me aside..no problem, I'm better off, just keep hearing about the "customer service" from them and it makes me laugh... Those guys even gave me a hard time about returning the blown (2week old) one, saying they'd call me back with instructions?? I talked to a supervisor and had to have it "handled" by the upper most people running the show there...that really pissed me off, thanks to them, but the regular mgr's and floor personnel SUCK.... and if the TCI rep on here wants to look into this claim, be my guest I have the names, dates, times of EVERYONE and what they told me to do.... anyway, best of luck to those without a Vigilante or Yank and have a DailyDriver with a high stall, you'll need it..
12-23-2006, 02:02 PM
#89
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Originally Posted by Trust
1jfuddle, you are good sir. It sounds like you stand behind your product. Your warranty program seems great. I would buy from you if I needed another converter. (Contradicting my other post).
Last edited by zspot98; 12-23-2006 at 03:58 PM.
12-23-2006, 03:29 PM
#91
Fuddle, You seem real quick to push the blame to low line pressure and excessive pulse width modulation. You also talk about your hundreds of happy customers. Thats great, but if you do a search on here you will find quite a few unhappy customers as well. It great that you stand behind your product and offer to warranty because that makes you look like the good guy.
12-23-2006, 05:24 PM
#92
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who else has looked at that clutch first hand and acctually knows what they are talking about?
I'm just asking because I bought a converter and have a feeling it will not last
I'm just asking because I bought a converter and have a feeling it will not last
12-23-2006, 06:15 PM
#94
Originally Posted by TonyGXP
My TCI was an off the shelf, but "Designed" with the TBSS in mind according to what Trevor said..so much so that TCI themselves didn't know this particular model existed and I had to get the part number from trevor himself (ridiculous if you ask me) TCI's lock up clutch was not the issue, but a lack of either workmanship or inferior parts was, as a fin or two broke with only 175mi on it.. like previously stated before, you get what you pay for, my Vigilante 9.5" multiDisc 3plate was $900 and worth every penny as it drives flawlessly and performs the same at the track... "Everyday" driving (from what the "experts" have related to me, and as well as I have read is the enemy of the aftermarket converter), the thousands of cycles the clutch goes through, locking and unlocking is where the "better" companies (DailyDriven, not track Queens) seem to shine.. just sharing what I've learned through my mistakes and own research (amazing the drive one takes on when he is left to "fend" for himself, thanks to a "Lack of Customer Service from TCI) I am glad some have good experiences with them, i have not, nor have many friends, I gave them a shot and they could care less what they did to my Truck (5k mi 8mos old at that) never once offering as much as a new converter shipped out to replace the blown one, money off a new one (which I wouldn't have taken, but at least offer it)..just cast me aside..no problem, I'm better off, just keep hearing about the "customer service" from them and it makes me laugh... Those guys even gave me a hard time about returning the blown (2week old) one, saying they'd call me back with instructions?? I talked to a supervisor and had to have it "handled" by the upper most people running the show there...that really pissed me off, thanks to them, but the regular mgr's and floor personnel SUCK.... and if the TCI rep on here wants to look into this claim, be my guest I have the names, dates, times of EVERYONE and what they told me to do.... anyway, best of luck to those without a Vigilante or Yank and have a DailyDriver with a high stall, you'll need it..
12-23-2006, 07:30 PM
#95
Originally Posted by TonyGXP
Best of luck to those without a Vigilante or Yank and have a DailyDriver with a high stall, you'll need it..
Originally Posted by Blackhawk T/A
I've actually seen a trend with clutch failures on here - most of them are installed on the stock transmission and its trying to use PWM, which has to be a cause for wear I would think.
12-23-2006, 07:38 PM
#96
Thats why we make all our transmission units incapable of pwm . and enlarge the release apply feeds to the converter clutch. Making it a very defined on and off operation .This really should be done even with a stock converter in a hi performance or really from my own experience any 4L60E. PWM (pulse width modulation)(controlled converter clutch slipping) was not one of GMs or anyone elses better ideas , The earliest I saw of it was chrysler with there 604 trans and it did not work out at all well for them either.
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12-23-2006, 08:05 PM
#97
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^^ exactly. When I got my trans built, pwm was disabled. Im not sure your guy's lsx transmissions still have that checkball on the input shaft, but at least on lt1 era transmissions, its recommended to remove it to allow the converter to have the most defined ON or OFF operation.. I dont know why you'd want to use PWM operation with an aftermarket converter anyways. That just calls for longevity issues (as mentioned)
Again sorry for not keeping up on things, but the trans cooling lines on ltx cars operate at around 17-20psi. the stock hardline on the car is very close to if not 3/8". last time I checked 3/8" = close to -6an...
GMRacer13 are you going to bash performabuilt also cause they use an adapter ring also (based on the picture on their site).
Again sorry for not keeping up on things, but the trans cooling lines on ltx cars operate at around 17-20psi. the stock hardline on the car is very close to if not 3/8". last time I checked 3/8" = close to -6an...
GMRacer13 are you going to bash performabuilt also cause they use an adapter ring also (based on the picture on their site).
Last edited by buffman; 12-23-2006 at 08:16 PM.
12-23-2006, 08:12 PM
#98
Originally Posted by RevGTO
I'd be just as pissed as you are Tony, if what happened to you happened to me, and I would hate the company that supplied the part. But what you experienced was a catastrophic failure, and that has happened with every brand mentioned in this thread. And customer service horrors have been plentifully reported with Yank as well as TCI or Fuddle. As far as daily driving is concerned, my TCI has over 15,000 on it with too many track passes to count. It's worked perfectly in all respects since day one.
12-23-2006, 08:17 PM
#99
Originally Posted by performabuilt
PWM (pulse width modulation)(controlled converter clutch slipping) was not one of GMs or anyone elses better ideas.
I was suprised at how firm lock-up was after the shift kit install. I loved it. Most of us have different sensibilities than the general public, though ...
12-23-2006, 09:35 PM
#100
Yes we do use the adapter ring in that particular line of converters and we have had no issues however we do suggest the elimination of the PWM however just after the first of the year since demand for these converters and satisfaction has been so good we will be offering the billet plate version with the larger clutch area also in a different line for those who do intend on using lockup regularly at WOT etc .
The smaller diameter units are a bit lighter which is a plus and are fine with PWM disabled and lockup applied at WOT only for the occasional dyno run , GM didn't lock the converter at WOT with any size unit .
The offerings and pricing on the large clutch units will be available in the next few days ,
We have had them all along but we have been watching to see what demand there was they will still be 9.5 but will have the larger backing plate area ,
The smaller diameter units are a bit lighter which is a plus and are fine with PWM disabled and lockup applied at WOT only for the occasional dyno run , GM didn't lock the converter at WOT with any size unit .
The offerings and pricing on the large clutch units will be available in the next few days ,
We have had them all along but we have been watching to see what demand there was they will still be 9.5 but will have the larger backing plate area ,
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