Blackened2k

iTrader: (4)

please this doesn't mean crap. You will say ANYTHING to get some of the meat on the table when you're starving.

GMmexican

iTrader: (7)

Even if you dont like GM lots of people will loose jobs and we will no longer see any new camaros or corvettes, and products like the LSx block are a direct evolution of GMPP racing pedigree will be gone as well

t_raven

iTrader: (12)

I haven't been totally pleased with all of GM's vehicles over the last few years and I don't know squat about running a huge corporation. But I'm always surprised when people want to talk about how Honda and Toyota make such better quality vehicles. If the big three weren't making trucks and SUVs who would be? Not all of us want small 4 banger cars and some of us need the capacity of a truck or SUV. I was a Honda tech for 3 years and I've worked for GM dealers as well as independants. Wanna know why Hondas "last so long"? Honda owners care about maintenance more than GM owners. I've personally owned 3 GM trucks with 350 engines that had over 200,000 miles and ran great still. I've also seen civics with 50,000 miles that were beat to hell. My service writer at the Honda dealer had an 03 Grand Am that needed head gaskets around 20k miles, but what about the 04 Accord that had the oil pump pick up fall off and destroy the engine at less than 5,000 miles? Often times when I hear people complain about american cars sucking compared to Hondas and Toyotas they are talking about 20 yr old neglected domestics compared to 5 year old well maintain imports.

Anyway sorry for the rant, and sorry if I got off topic, but as an automotive tech I get tired of people blaming car companies for the fact that they (the owners) are too cheap to maintain their vehicles and I just needed to vent............And plus I just like to hear myself type

Jon5212

iTrader: (2)

^^^ I'm going to agree with you on those points. My wife has an 06 Civic with about 30K on it. I'm not impressed whatsoever with that car. It is the most uncomfortable car i've ever been in. I'm 6' 6" so yeah its a little small but driving the camaro is far superior.

pewter02z28gs

as tech myself i agree 100%

Bitemark46

Yep. That's exactly what they are doing.

The money isn't going to fix the problem. Its only going to delay the inevitable. What do they think that "whala" all the sudden this money is going to give them new ideas, concepts, better money management, time management, cheaper wages/pentions, etc. ??

Let all 3 fail!

05CherryGXP

There are realistic reasons for any bailout is a good idea, often times it is cheaper to give GM the money now rather and keep them afloat, rather than having to give all their workers unemployment and welfare once the company goes under. Either way the tax pay pays in the end.

The problem with GM is, it is regressing. Look at the JD Power Reliability ranks for say 2003 or 2004 compared with the ones for 2007 and 2008. Caddy and Buick are up at the top, kicking *** and taking names, but Pontiac and Chevy are getting worse. It seems for every good product Chevy brings out, like the Malibu, they take two steps backwards.

GM cannot survive as the worldwide leader of automotive if it does not pull its head out of its *** and do well in the small and midsized car segement. GM can survive as a luxury brand (Caddy), performance (the Vette and other LS products) and trucks (Silverado, Tahoe, etc), but if thats all it sells then it has to become smaller.

Until GM can convince the world that they have a plan to ensure that their reliability ratings go up and they market good small and midsized cars (good quality cars, none of this Aveo crap) I don't want them getting any money.

TT632

iTrader: (3)

I'd have to agree that the small cars could be an area where they could bring it up a notch. Trucks good! Malibu and its sister platforms good, LSX engined vehicles great! A ten item hit list for each vehicle line and its largest complaint or warrantee item would address a lot of the quality perception issues. Having been an Engineer for American and a Japanese OEM you see the bad and the good of each one and theres not much of a difference. GM has never been appreciated for innovation even when they are leading edge; ala: Turbocharged cars in the 60's, Grand nationals in the 80's, hydroformed frames, LSx series of Engines, Onstar etc.

I have also seen as some of the techs above mentioned completely deficient areas on Japanese, European and Korean vehicles that are "rarely criticized".
You hear this, even on this board "I will never buy an American vehicle again". You never hear "I will never buy a Korean vehicle again" even after all of the junk Hyundais they dumped off on our shores in the 80's and 90's, Hell they still suck, but they have a 100k warrentee! Same appies to Mitus and Subs. You don't see any old ones because they are crap.
Not sure what the psychology of this is: blast an American vehicle when they have issues and ignore the deficiencies in a Foreign built vehicle. I would think the reverse would be true.

Either way these Foreign companies don't supply us with jobs even approaching the big three and our American supplier base! If they want to make money off of us they better employ us and not just end point Assembly plants which is just lip service anyway! Just like Japan and China, If you want to sell to them you better move your factory there!

horist

They need to fail.. and then get rid of the useless UAW

No more of this unskilled labor, assembling a car in an assembly line w/ergonomic smart tools, getting paid wages many skilled laborers don't make.

TT632

iTrader: (3)

That’s the 3 million job question. How do you replace 3 million jobs with pittance that the Foreign manufacturers have on our shores, while our companies are restructuring.

Even though I currently work in an aerospace division of my company, other divisions supply sub component parts to the big three. We supply very few parts to the Foreign manufacturers, because they buy from their own back in Japan, Germany or Korea.

If the big three American manufacturers do go done it will bring the Foreign car manufacturers with them. The job losses will be so great no one will be buying cars including Foreign ones.

LS1LT1

iTrader: (16)

Translation: the U.S. needs to fail.
That's essentially what you're saying because that's EXACTLY what's going to happen if the U.S. auto industry is forced into a bankruptcy/restructuring.
This could ultimately lead to what will someday be referred to as THE END of life in the U.S. as it was once known.
Such a shame.

LS1LT1

iTrader: (16)

Exactly.
It's a lose lose situation no matter how you slice it.

IFRYRCE

iTrader: (3)

Swing on Toyota's nuts some more. You **** me off sometimes doing that all over the place. You like them so much, get a Supra and get off LS1tech.


GM has to say a lot of BS to get the idiots in congress to push this thing through. I've been a republican my whole life, but not anymore. They're F*cking ignorant idiots about this whole issue. The automakers have been restructuring all year, cutting positions and jobs and making moves to make profitability easier. They made shitty products in the late 70s and throughout the 80s, but started a turnaround in the 90s and since 2000, they've been making the best products in their (GM at least, I really don't know crap about ford or chrysler) 100 year history. Their showrooms now are full of products that according to magazines that are as import-biased as Meent and 3/4 of this thread here are equal to or BETTER than their foreign competition. Malibu anyone?
The German press admits that the CTS-V is better than the M-series or AMG. Honestly, anyone who doesn't have their head up their *** has sat up in the last eight years and taken notice that GM has made a turnaround. They're on the right track, with Chevy having only .5 MPG less on average than Honda fleet-wise even including all their industrial vehicles and trucks. Chevy is the THIRD MOST FUEL EFFICIENT AUTOMAKER after Mini and Honda, and when you look at the vehicles each of the three makes and how close Chevy is, you realize how far along GM really is.

GM, at least, is on the right track. So what if they need some cash now to keep going. They'll pay it back and become profitable with ease in the next few years, especially since the UAW is being/has been broken. If you don't think so, I really think you ought to pull your head outta your ***.

Not to attack anyone, but this issue REALLY pisses me off.

LS1-450

iTrader: (33)

Yours is the most un-informed, ignorant statement that I have read on this site; and you're a moderator?

I am educated & have done business in several Countries. If you want to "blame" anyone for the current state of the auto Industry & actually the electronics manufacturing Industry you can start w/ the US Governments' plan to re-build Japan after WWII. It was the beginning of giving away US trade secrets & off shore manufacturing. Japanese auto workers wear uniforms because McGarther demanded that they do so while training them.
This opened the door to US Corporations manufacturing outside of the US.

Congress is bashing Detroit while at the same time handing out Billions to Foreign Countries. Let's get Congress to start collecting Foreign debts owed the US by other Countries & stop all hand outs to Foreign Contries. It's far beyond time for us to take care of our own people. Don't even get me started on Iraq.

This Country's biggest problem is that the US Government's attention is focused abroad under the veil of "National Security" & "Foreign policy." It's far, far beyond time to take care of our own. Petty arguments about unions & wage untruths is pointless. Us Auto workers do not make high wages. The media has relied on your ignorance to beleive it. Had it been War time, this would be known as propaganda. The average is approx. $28/hr, which is $4 to $5/hr greater than Foreign Auto Companies.

Everyone in this Country deserves the opportunity to earn a meaningful income. Giving away our manufacturing is what has weakend this Country....slowly, over the past 60 years & it will continue unless we start focusing on taking care of our own people.

Jon5212

iTrader: (2)

^^ I agree people have a right to earn a meaningful income, but someone who takes a bolt, and screw's it in on the chassis all day long I can't see that earning 30+ an hour to do.

A freaking monkey knows the round tube goes in the round hole.

Another edit if you look during WW2 with FDR as president it was a democratic controlled congress and president. Just an observation.

t_raven

iTrader: (12)

^^Wait a min?......plant workers make an average of $28/hour?!!!!! As a tech the average wage is probably $20. Maybe $22 for people with more than 10yrs experience. It takes way more skill and training and mental aptitude to become a good technician. But......I figured out a long time ago that being a tech is a lowsy paying career.

Jon5212

iTrader: (2)

^^Looked it up top pay for hourly is 27 bucks an hour. Still... putting bolts in holes..

LS1-450

iTrader: (33)

As I stated, Everyone has the right to earn a meaningful wage. Good for them for landing a job that helps to support their Families. Further, $20-$30 is hardly a wage worth arguing against. It's not that much money.

My greatest isuue is with the notion that only the most highly skilled & highly educated people are worthy of earning a stable living. So, I ask what are we to do with those who lack the ability & or education? Not everyone has the talent, intelligence or opportunity to earn a reasonable living according to modern standards. All of these people are entitled to earn enough to support themselves. There's no reason that we as a so called "Great Country" can't take care of each other.

LS1LT1

iTrader: (16)

Excellent points.
People are so quick to state that "let them fail, it's entirely their own faults, it is not the government's responsibility to help these corporations because that is NOT what the principles of capitalism are about" etc. etc. yet guess what played a huge role in getting some of these corporations into the messes they're in in the first place?
That's right, certain government policies.
So wouldn't it now make sense that it is in fact their responsibility to help get those negativity affected by such heinous administrative acts/policies out of this bind they're in?
Ya can't have it both ways.

t_raven

iTrader: (12)

What in the world are you talking about? You are saying that people who lack ability and or education should make just as much as those who work hard and make sacrifices to gain an education and strong knowledge of their field? So I guess burger flippers deserve to make the same as doctors? If that were the case then what would motivate people to better themselves? I agree that $20-$30/hr is not much these days. But for an average factory worker to make $25/hr when I as a technician who has spent thousands on school, I do everything I can to improve my skills, and I work in a more mentally challenging environment, I make $20/hr on flat rate. Last year I was working 60hrs/wk to earn 40. And that is not do to my lack of skill. Also as a technician the benefits sucks. I'm sure these factory workers making more than I do are getting much better benefits, and only working 40hrs to earn 40hrs. I do think that everyone with a good work ethic deserves to be able to support themselves and a family. But I'm just saying.......close to $30/hr to work in a factory when so many other higher skilled jobs pay less and have less benefits...it's pretty crazy to me.