Very interesting thread!

 

You know, I just have to wonder what the mentality is of someone who constantly ***** on working class people. "Union workers are lazy thugs who want a handout" etc. Do you know anyone in a union? If you did you might find out they are hard working people who want a better life, and don't buy into your right-wing Social Darwinist bullshit that says you should be a wage slave all your life, and if you don't make enough money, then you deserve to die. Your ideology is inhuman. It is the law of the jungle.

And I gather the sense that you believe corporations are owed more by their workers and the workers deserve less pay.

After all, corporations are people too, right?

They do so in addition to "collective bargaining" with the government.

My analogy rang true just fine, you're just too blinded by your own inability to think or reason that you didn't see it.

So you're saying it's harder to get elected without the help of a party? Kind of like how it's harder to get higher wages without the help of a union?

I thought "equal pay for equal work" was about giving women the save wage as men... which I would imagine you oppose as well.

Because here's how it goes... again, shouldn't have to explain this, but oh well:

(Non-union)
Worker: I'd like a raise.
Manager: No.

(Union)
Union rep: We'd like to negotiate for higher wages.
Manager: Let's see if we can work something out.

What is your opposition to workers organizing? Your bullshit "rugged individualism" is a joke. Workers can only improve their situations if they work together. The individual worker has NO ability to get better working conditions.

If your ignorance weren't so disheartening then it would also be funny...

So you "loled" when you read about union reps being assaulted. I suppose that is what you would do.

He was against unionization for the same reason all tyrants oppose democracy. They want total control.

Yes, Henry Ford was so benevolent. He knew better than his workers. He knew so much more that he intimidated them into seeing it his way. Sounds like a benevolent leader to me.

Sounds like more of a business decision to me than being a humanitarian.

Ever heard of the Battle of the Overpass?

Ignorant ignorant ignorant

The fact is that unions were fighting for 8 hour days LONG before Ford got onboard.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eight-hour_day

 

Union workers are'nt thugs. Its the union leaders that are thugs. They will drive up labor and benifits until the company cant be profitable anymore....I.E. GM and the only time the will accept current rates for longer is if raising rates will mean everyone is flat up out of a job.

Dont believe everything your union rep says. I dont know why you would want somone else to represent you anyways. Are you scared you are not worth the pay?

 

I'm right here. I didn't support the bail outs, I still don't. Bad businesses should fail. New businesses will take their place. Now that we have bailed out one industry (two, counting banks), the Federal Government now has the obligation to bail out all industries who run with a shitty business plan. So, you are in favor of rewarding failure.

Keep this in mind 10 years from now when the Fed is called upon to bail out the health insurance industry, due to Obamacare bankrupting the game. They run a shitty practice too, but they are too big to fail...

 

Totally against the bailouts also, let them fail and come back stronger on their own. My last 5 cars have been GM and they are my last. Bought a new Endeavor for the wife because it came with a 100,000mi bumper to bumper warranty.

GM did pay back the "loan" but out of the 50billion they got to finance their bankruptcy only 7 billion was considered a pure loan at only 7% interest. Then the Obama administration put 13 billion in an escrow account so GM could pay it back. So GM didn't really pay back the "loan" from it's own earnings. But they did put out a lot of commercials to make you think so.

Unions are the closest thing to communism in this country because they reward the worst workers from the labors of the best. I've worked with dozens of union guys in the trades and 90% of them are lazy bums.

 

I'm not a member of a union, so I'm not defending myself in this matter. I'm defending the rights of other workers to organize if they have chosen to do so. There's nothing wrong with representation, it's what our whole democracy is based on. It has nothing to do with being afraid, it's about understanding the limits of what one worker can bargain for. Collective bargaining is much more effective in achieving better working conditions, it's just a fact.

There's so much anti-union propaganda in American society, with good reason - corporations hate democracy in the workplace. Unfortunantly this propaganda is in full force in this thread. Union reps aren't thugs unless you're talking about the Teamsters back in the day. Do unions get everything right? Certainly not - the UAW supported the Vietnam War for example. Is that an argument against unions, no.

Contrary to what corporations want you to believe, unions aren't criminal gangs that invade your workplace, extort dues out of the workers, and bully the managers into giving the union bosses everything they want. That's just not how it works. Everyone I know who's been in a union says it was worth it, and it got them better wages. Just take a look at this:



As unions have declined, so has the working class.

 

I've known hundreds, maybe thousands of union workers. None of them EVER told me they wanted to work hard... I'm talking about guys who retired in the 1980's and those who worked until the early 2000's. Some for the UAW and some for the CWA. They all want a better life, better pay, better benefits and none held back on telling me that... Still, none ever said, "Ya know, I wanna work HARDER this year! I wanna see my company more profitable!" Nope, they just DON'T think like that. Ya know who DOES? People who own their own business and those who don't have a union to make certain they keep their job no matter how poorly they do said job.

Only MORONS believe that "right-wingers" want others to die for any given reason(aside from crimes), because they didn't make enough money or otherwise. Lunatics from the left spend too much time spreading idiotic lies and sadly, millions of union workers actually fall for it as if it's true. PAY ATTENTION for a moment... If it sounds like it's ACTUALLY crazy... A left-wing loon made it up and those conservative people all around you ... DIDN'T... Put yourself on a realistic level for a minute... Do you REALLY think anyone you know wants you dead because you aren't intelligent enough to manage your income? Of course not.

Conservatives want a better life too, but are generally more than willing to actually work very long and difficult hours to get it. One reason is, they don't tend to have unions telling them to band together to fight(physically in too many cases) for more stuff for less work. Move along.

Who invented the 4 wheeled, combustion engined automobile? Who invented the assembly line for said autos? Now... do you think the people working for those fellas should make MORE than the people who actually thought it through and built it from nothing AND THEN offered a JOB to those who earn less? Of course you do, but that's because you've been trained to think backward while looking forward... to someone else inventing something to make your life easier...

They are.

Why did you ask why they can't and now come back and add to the answer which is, they can and do?... Obviously, you asked, knowing it happens... Where was your point in asking?

This, from the same guy who asked why corporations can't do something he knows they can... from the same guy who thinks conservative Americans want him to die if he can't manage his income... because a union rep TOLD HIM SO... Forgive me, but you don't have any clout with me at present.

Regardless, your analogy was GARBAGE because you were comparing two things, so radically different, they cannot logically be compared. HOWEVER, since you did and since you think it's "ringing true," answer me this... Why don't you UNION MEMBERS prove just how PATRIOTIC you are and work for the pay of an E4 in our military???? You think you have it rough, DO YA? Go look into what those actual patriots have to put up with daily.

They typically work MUCH harder than any union employee and for far less pay!

How's that analogy looking now, oh highly intelligent one?????

There's why I dislike debating "pro union" in a nutshell. They're typically woefully unprepared for my level of knowledge... Get a life AND an education, lest you appear as a buffoon regularly in this kind of debate!

Nope... It is harder to get elected as an Independent than as a Republican, let alone a Democrat. That's true... It's also true that those who REALLY apply themselves tend to earn more... Think not? Then why in Hell are you complaining about management earning more?

See... It's terribly easy to rip your argument to shreds... You haven't even considered actually thinking about it on your own. You decided at some point, to RELY on someone ELSE thinking it over for you... You'll never beat someone like me with that mindset... ever.

It should mean that. And with union help, it is that... Aside of union help, the better performer tends to make more... See... "Your boss" for that reality check.

That's what you've been TAUGHT to believe. It's not actually true, but they tell you it is and evidently you're not ever feeling manly enough to simply go ask for a raise. TRY it sometime... It may get you better pay! It's worked for me many times.

Correct, you shouldn't have to explain... you should know better by now.

My opposition is simple enough... Unions have caused far too many American companies to NOT BE American companies anymore. Remember when the last television was made in America? Of course you don't because you weren't alive yet... That happened for 2 reasons. #1, governmental intervention(they legalized unions, ya know). #2, Demanded WAGES!

Workers can only improve their situations and cannot get better working conditions UNLESS they work together??... Hmm... Tell Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Warren Buffet, and MILLIONS of other millionaires who AREN'T union members!

If your ignorance weren't so OBVIOUS, it still wouldn't be funny at all, but you are utterly ignorant on this matter!

You don't know this, but the reality is, those actually ASSAULTING others ... ARE UNION MEMBERS!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hznSuacEN_I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zm_Fl...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzxej...eature=related<~ Note the sign in the opening, in his right hand... then look at the one in his right and ask yourself if that man is "normal" by any standard?? He has trouble using the correct words, even as simple as "brakes" (he meant breaks, but couldn't quite pull it off because, no doubt, he's the intelligent one).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcCHh...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzTeA...eature=related <~perhaps the funniest of all! Teacher to TEA PARTY member: "How are teachers gonna create their own living? Tea party member, "If you're such a good teacher, how come you can't answer that for yourself?" The lady at the end is something else, claiming she doesn't even know a union member... Yeah, that's believable...

The list goes on and on... Union members are TYPICALLY the aggressors, not the victim.

If you hire someone to work in your home or garage, who should have total control, you, or the person in your employ? During the time in question, Henry Ford paid DOUBLE anyone else in the automotive industry did.

Just because you grew up among a nation of sissies who can't stand alone for themselves does not mean men of that era were just as pathetically incapable.

So? He still DID IT and NOBODY from or in a union had a single thing to do with it, CONTRARY to what the union thugs tell you. It's RECORDED HISTORY and guys like you simply think that it must be wrong because you've been told unions created... They created 1 thing, hardship for millions! There was a time for unions, but that time has been gone a very long time.

Yes, 1937... What about it?

There ya go... Stand strong, BROTHER! Maybe more union wannabes will try to help you intimidate me...

They were "fighting" for something HE created without a union in sight! He was clearly the more intelligent person, even if he was an ***.

 

Who's arguing against their right to organize?

Excuse me, but which line of the Constitution says that? Are you thinking of, or attaching this thought to Miranda?

Then why are the richest people in our country NOT union members?

Have you stopped to consider the other end constantly harped on by unions?? The rich get richer??? Hmmm... Maybe some of the so called middle class decline is actually the upper class growing? There's no denying that has happened, by the way.

 

So you're saying there's no such thing as a hard working union member. You live in a fantasy world sir.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PepQF7G-It0

CNN: "Are you saying society should just let him die?" Conservatives: "YEAH!"

Yeah yeah you guys work hard, keep telling yourself that and you'll feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Doesn't make it true though.

Never said such a thing, please live in the real world.

Unions haven't told me ****, I do my own thinking. I don't just repeat what Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity tell me.

Not a union member sir. I just care about my fellow man, unlike you.

Keep on living in your fantasy world, ignorance is bliss after all.

People work hard and apply themselves their whole life... most don't ever strike it rich. Again, fantasy world. Not everyone can be rich, no matter how hard they work.

Your arguments have no bearing on reality, they're all based in a fantasy world where everyone is perfectly rewarded for their work and those who are lazy are punished. Case in point: Wall Street bankers run their companies into the ground, then are awarded with record bonuses. HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THIS?

Again more fantasy world. Not everyone gets paid a living wage by "asking nicely." Not how the world works.


No, those companies have gone overseas because the workers in China are damn near SLAVES. So you want workers in America to be paid less than workers in China? Plus there's the whole currency manipulation thing, but I guess you don't think that plays a role in world trade?

ALEC is a union. A union that represents corporate interests. And you say rich people don't join unions?

Yeah the old man I know who's a union worker at Philip Morris is a thug. You're right, all union workers are thugs, you got me on that one.

No one should have TOTAL control, there should be an agreement between the employer and the employee. What you're arguing for is called serfdom. There's a reason why we did away with it.

America is a nation of sissies? Damn, you're a patriot.

Unions fought for it long before he got onboard. Please learn history.

 

Businesses should fail and let new one's take their place. Do you have any idea how competitive the world auto market is? If the big 3 HAD fallen, there would definitely be some companies to take their place, all the Japanese and European ones, but no American auto company would sprout up to take their place.

You would welcome the end of millions of jobs, permanently. People who work at dealerships, manufacturing plants, auto parts stores, and parts produces would all be out of work because the big 3 went under. Did you know every other industrialized country in the world also bailed out their auto companies?

There was the bank bailout, the auto bailout, and there was the stimulus, which was meant to help businesses and the general population and stimulate the economy. The stimulus prevented us from sinking into a depression, it kept us afloat, merely in a recession.

Now that GM has been bailed out, they have repaid all their loans and sell more cars/trucks than any other company in the world. They are back on top and producing jobs right here in America, growing our economy. You look out in the country and think the economy is sluggish and sometimes grim, imagine what it'd be like without the auto industry bailout, much much worse.

 

This reeks of Obama-love, and I refuse to debate stupidity. Live in your world, but please don't procreate.

 

Of course you have no educated response. All you can come up with is to label my words as "Obama-love".

It's almost like some of you guys want the economy to fail and do worse than it already is.

 

Evidently it's you living in some fantasy world, as you have tried more than once now to "let everyone know" what it is I'm thinking and you've been wrong in each instance, including this one. What I'm saying is EXACTLY what I said, period, end of story... No need for you to try and read between the lines. I'm a man... I say what I mean and mean what I say, EVERY time!

Oh, surely that guy A: couldn't possibly have been a plant and/or B: speaks for ALL conservatives... Talk about a fantasy world...

NOTE: That one person said something... You've got 1 audio tape of a moron... I showed 5 video tapes of left-wing genius wonders and you blow it off as if I was personally acting in every effort to make you believe some falsehood...

Reality is, those "union supporters" tend to be the ones ATTACKING other people over words... They're mental midgets and they aim to prove it at any and every opportunity!

Of course not, but the reality doesn't change simply because you can't figure it out... Why do those on the left constantly bitch about conservatives being "fat cats" and "uber-rich," etc. ??? Any clues?? They didn't simply wake up one morning and say, "I'm rich now!" and have millions of dollars.

Of course you didn't... you merely rambled for effect.

You choose who to believe in this matter. You're choosing the side that gives everything away because it's demanded. I choose to support the thinkers who are the reason the followers even HAVE a job. Whether or not you know it, unions HAVE told you many things. Did you go to a public school(I can already tell you did)... Those people telling you things... They're UNION members telling you things... You've never truly done your own thinking, but you're getting there.

I never said you were a union member and I've noticed already that you deny any such affiliation(good idea). That said, you are 100% correct that you care about your fellow man, unlike me... I care in a way so as to help my fellow man EXCEL while you care enough to stand in a line with him and whine. The two are stark in contrast.

By the time you reach 40, you'll be the one who's changed, I guarantee it! Then you'll look back and think, man... I was really ignorant back then! Don't bother arguing this point. I remember well when I stepped out of my "Democrat from birth" shell. It was mind-numbing and totally exhilarating at the same time.

Rich people sometimes work hard their entire lives too and... SO WHAT? That's just too bad.

In your idea of a perfect world it may seem wrong. Fact is, not everyone can be rich with money. If we leave America to folks like you, we'll ALL be poor! Since we all know not everyone can be rich, ask yourself why you think it's so damned important to GIVE more of OTHER PEOPLEs money away??? If you're so concerned about the poor union worker, give them your money!

No, and sadly it's all too obvious you just "don't get it" concerning my arguments. I can't help you because you're flatly not comprehending. That's your fault because you purposely change as much meaning around as possible to meet your idea of correct. Look around... the country has been run largely the same for over 200yrs... People got rich while other people didn't. Some work hard their entire lives and don't get rich... I refuse to feel sorry for them while you wanna cry for them. As I told you already... reach 40 and see where stand on these issues.

DEMOCRATS... That's the explanation! They're the ones who set the rules to allow it to happen. In many cases, they also provided the money, as in TARP...

No they don't... Some of us also WORK hard, which clearly you're allergic too... Try that sometime too, and see what good or bad that brings. Something tells me you have no interest in working at all, let alone hard.

You're only kidding yourself. When those television companies moved overseas, they went primarily to JAPAN and TAIWAN! At the same time, AMERICA had "sweat shops" in every major city... You're showing your youth on this one big time, sport.

No, that's NOT what I said... I named names for a start and STILL you can't figure it out... What's the matter with you? Is it that difficult? I said ask those men and millions of others who AREN'T(that's the key word; aren't) union members! How the world you take from that, that I said rich people don't join unions, only God knows!

ALEC (American Legislative Exchange Council) has roughly 2000 members... Not much of a union.

There you go again, in true left-wing moonbat fashion, trying to explain that I said something I never even hinted at saying... READ MY WORDS AGAIN, JUNIOR! This time, pay attention!

I even capitalized it so you'd see the emphasis and understand. Still, you failed. "TYPICALLY" has a meaning. Look it up if you must.

The vast majority of union members aren't thugs. However, when the union people meet with non-union Americans and the topic has anything to do with politics(union= politics), the thugs in the crowd will almost invariably be wearing union logos! I only used 5 videos(not that you saw them all), but there are plenty more. If you had watched them all, I'm fairly certain you'd have had something specific to say about 1 of them.

What I'm "arguing" for is called LEADERSHIP... You wouldn't understand as you've not really seen any yet...

If I hire you to mow my lawn because I don't have a mower, time, or willingness to cut my own yard, guess what... I'm the boss! There will be no question of that, ever. The reality is, too many Americans anymore have decided as you have, that everyone is supposed to get along and make friends and help everyone else from the goodness of their heart... it doesn't work out. It never did. It never will.

Not entirely, but your generation is hosed...

Yeah, yeah... You saw it in a Chomsky type book... it must be reality... One day the real world is gonna slam into you, face to face. Mom and dad won't be able to help and you'll either sink or swim... Good luck with that.

In a nutshell, everything you deem "not possible except my way" seems to be a fantasy world to you... Well, allow me to be the 1st to formally welcome you to The United States of America! Get used to the hardships because now that you're outta school, the real world begins. With your current attitude, I'm not convinced you won't end yourself prior to 40, but I'll pray for you just the same. The good news is, you're as blissful as they get!

 

http://illuminati-order.com/Philosop...ty-english.swf

Good video, opens some peoples eyes.

 

Tell us how you know this? Have you seen it happen several times before? No? So why couldn't other Americans have made the purchase? Why could no American companies move into the empty facilities and restart them? The answer is, they COULD! As for "the big 3" falling, Ford was evidently not even close. Some said Ford execs considered buying some of the others, if the 2 had shut down.

Do you not know that there have been several American automobile companies during the last 100+ years? Most of them failed... many were then taken over as scrap by the big 3, or outright built into giants themselves. ALL those companies started somewhere.

Auto parts stores? They'd be BOOMING! The fact is, GM went bankrupt and, had it not been for government stupidity, GM had a shot at being even better than it is, having restructured AS LAW ALLOWS in the 1st place! Odds are, more people would be back to work because GM would've been able to settle debt and redo contracts. They could've saved billions on their own.

Again... PROVE IT! You can't, so don't even try.

WRONG! GM still owes some 25-34 BILLION DOLLARS, depending on whom you ask, mostly to "The American people." They have paid off a SINGLE rather small(all things considered) loan. 8.1 billion is what percentage of 52 billion... There ya go...

When is the last time you know GM hired? They laid off 1,300 workers recently and overall, some 65,000. Most, but not all of their recent hiring has been done OUTSIDE of America, like it and believe it or not.

I can imagine that! It would be just like it was when I was a kid... People went into business and sometimes failed... Life ALWAYS moved on and it always will.

 

Can you name any American companies that could move in and even in the next 25 years replace anything close to the sector of the economy and amount of jobs the big 3 held together? No. Even if there was a company, it would take over a generation before they manifested, and even then it'd be highly unlikely.

I don't see your logic here at all. GM was not just going bankrupt, they were going completely under with little chance of ever recovering, the same with Chrysler.

I don't know who you get your news from, but unless you are disputing the article that this thread was started on, you're pulling it out of thin air. Read the article, it said, "KANSAS CITY, KANSAS – General Motors Company Chairman and CEO Ed Whitacre today announced that GM has made its final payment of $5.8 billion to the U.S. Treasury and Export Development Canada, paying back its government loans in full, ahead of schedule." If that isn't proof, I don't know what is.


If you had read the article it notes that they have already begun rehiring within the last year. "Since the launch of the new GM last July, the company has announced investments of more than $1.5 billion at 20 facilities in the U.S. and Canada. These investments restored or created more than 7,500 jobs, and they demonstrate a strong commitment to GM's future and to the United States and Canada." Notice it also says to facilities in the United States and Canada.

When you were a kid the big 3 were still around, and they still dominated. If the entire American auto industry had collapsed, we would have lost millions of jobs that would never come back, and if they ever did return it would not be for decades. That would send us into a depression and lose the last manufacturing edge the United States has on the rest of the world. Because of the bailout GM is back on top, and Chrysler is growing faster than it has in decades. Both companies are stronger than they have been in years, and our manufacturing sector is still alive thanks to the bailout.

 

Okay Itllrun, we get it. You hate unions. You hate GM. You hate Democrats. You have NO facts to back up anything you say, you have your own outdated, backwards ideology and some YouTube videos of union members being ******. And yet when I post a video of right-wingers acting like fools you say they're "plants." Give. Me. A. *******. Break. I can no longer sustain an argument with someone who has no interest in rational discussion. It's like arguing with a child.

I'll leave you with some words of wisdom from George Carlin, may he rest in peace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q

 

I don't need to because Ford didn't go or file for bankruptcy. That just might be a good indication as to why some thought Ford may have bought some of the leftover... Because they WEREN'T bankrupt, not because they were.

That said, it was nearly 1 man who bought Chrysler... If Bill Gates or Warren Buffet wanted in, either could've put up the cash and kept things moving almost 100%. Thankfully, and sadly, neither is that stupid.

First, the auto parts stores.. They'd flourish indeed, as there would be millions of people needing parts no dealer was around the sell them. The aftermarket parts makers would also boom because... they're making the parts, as they do today, only more of them.

Now then, the reality is, when a company file "bankruptcy" they are actually filing for "bankruptcy protection" and if they file the correct paperwork, they can almost instantly ELIMINATE most of their bills and ALL of their contracts. At that point, they begin their restructuring process. It's too complicated to explain here, but it seems you think when a company files for bankruptcy, they simply shut and lock the doors and walk away. That's rarely going to happen to any corporation(it does, but very rarely).

I am disputing what this thread was predicated on, because it is WRONG! GM paid back 8.1 billion, or so... GM got something closer to 52 billion. Does 8.1 cover 52 where you live? If so, I wanna know right away!

I already added the quote from the latest article put up here. THAT is what got me cried to in the 1st place.

Do I care what some lacklustre reporter said? No, I don't. The reality is, and that reporter should be intelligent and educated enough to know it before submitting his report, GM borrowed several times the amount paid back that day... In fact, we know without question, GM actually paid that part back by using OTHER BAIL OUT MONEY! This isn't news anymore... we've known for a long time.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...bailout-money/

Yeah, that's part of this story, but they tell you the rest of the story in this article... http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/02/bu...gret.html?_r=1
http://money.cnn.com/news/storysuppl...ailouttracker/
http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...ost-taxpayers/

If you were even remotely up to date on the auto industry, you'd know that GM laid off some 1,300 workers from the Hamtranck(sp) facility(where they build the VOLT) because VOLT sales were so low. Last month, VOLT picked up sales and GM sold like 2300... While that number sucks, it's by far the best month yet, fleet sales or not. GM announced it would bring back those 1300 workers 1 week early... Just this week, I think.

That's hyperbole... Nothing less. At best, it's conjecture. You have absolutely no evidence to prove your point or even support the claim. None.

More hyperbole. In all likelihood, GM is back on top because of a Tsunami hitting Japan very hard and knocking out Toyota for awhile.

 

George was a comedian (the best at that) that made a living off the american dream. LOL if you dont see the irony of a rich man who did it all by himself telling you the american dream is a crock of ****, then you probably need a union.

Its almost as dumb as Rage Against The Machine...saying how they hate the man. LMAO the man and America is what made them huge and rich. Thats not fashionable so thats not what they sing about. Its really a no brainer.

 

Most of your claims are all "hyberbole". Since the Tsunami did hit and destroy some Toyota plants, sure that set them back. But without the bailout GM would not be number 1 today, that's a fact.

Anyways, I'm done arguing with you. Go back to listening to Fox News, it's clearly where you get all your beliefs.