BAD ASS TA WS6

iTrader: (5)

Oh god I finally thought those Hitler Spoofs had finally disappeared.

MasterTomos

iTrader: (15)

******* priceless...was literally laughing out loud by myself in the college computer lab...

"Maybe we should have just tried a performance version of the Volt...It's not like that thing is starting on fire or anything, right?"

Heater

LoL, fan boy?

Black01M6SS

iTrader: (3)

The car was built for the track and every car will come track ready. Yeah, nice. Ready for the wrong track! I don't know of a single road course in this part of the county but we have 3 drag strips about an hour drive apart. Plenty of long strait roads to mess around on if you want to have some fun on the street. I'm guilty of making some high speed runs on the street but not in traffic or around curves. All the standard track equipment the car comes with is useless for what I would buy it for. Every car guy I'm friends with agree on this. If anything at least offer it without all the roadrace junk as its just adding to the cost and probably weight. The Corvette is supposed to be the roadrace car.

Yeah, the new Camaro is doing fine in sales. Mostly middle aged women and teen girls own the ones around here. People seem to buy them for the look. I sure as hell didn't buy a 4th gen for the looks. It was about performance for the money. Sorry, I do consider myself a die hard GM fan but I hate the direction they went with the new Camaro. So does every other person I know that is actually interested in performance over looks. Hell one of them is about to buy a new Mustang. He can't decide if he wants to get a 5.0 and mod it or get a GT500. He is a former 4th gen z28 owner. The new Camaro just doesn't appeal to my kind of crowd...the kind that drives on the street with drag radials in the back and skinnies up front.

TriShield

The Mustang has been selling on looks since the retro design bowed in 2005. Now it doesn't have that anymore thanks to the Challenger and Camaro. The Camaro is hardly a slow, underperforming car. The Mustang is getting trounced so bad in the marketplace that they did even more tweaks for 2013 to limp it along to the upcoming redesign - which will make it more like the current Camaro with IRS.

Irunelevens

And it is rumored to be lighter than the current car.

JD_AMG

Um really?
In your state:
http://www.circuitgrandbayou.com/Home_Page.html
http://www.nolamotor.com/index/
You can also browse http://www.delta-scca.org/wordpress/ for your local auto-x meets and events to race at.
And Texas right next to you currently has 16 open road courses.
The ZL1 was built for real racing, not some one trick pony strait line BS, this isn't the 60s anymore...

Obviously this car is not for you, but if all you care about is going strait why would you spend the money on a new higher end Camaro when you could just buy a cheap fox body with an LS1 swap or a 4th gen Fbody and spend less but still get good results?

It wasn't supposed to appeal to just "that type" of person, its supposed to be a world class (sold everywhere), all around performance car. Thats part of the reason you are seeing these good sales numbers.

gocartone

iTrader: (4)

What?? The Mustang is right behind the Camaro in sales; the Challenger is the one that is getting trounced.

ThisBlood147

In all honesty, I've really stopped caring about the GT500 and the ZL-1 since the arrival of the Boss 302. I guess I've grown numb to all the HP insanity going on in the sportscar segment these last few years. I like the track-centric focus of the Boss...and the fact that it doesn't have a PD blower adding to its forward weight bias. Great balance > ridiculous power...all day IMO.

LS1LT1

iTrader: (16)

I really like the Boss 302 (new and old) as well.

Iownboth

Yes, yes, yes, let the troll-accusations begin!!

Not here to Troll necessarily (although people tend to translate things with bias), but I own a couple Camaros, alot of Chevs in-general, and also Mustangs. My daily driver is a stripe-delete 2011 GT500 with the SVT Performance Package. I've got about $800 total in mods (pulley, tune, filter), and chassis-dyno'd at 540 rwhp. I can honestly say that I'm an American car lover, not a single-brand blind-follower. That said....

* Overall, a decent discussion, kudos...

* A bit of pure nonsense here and there, and I'll apologize for the occassional goofy-Mustang-troll posts seemingly intended to stir ****, and not much else.

* Never seen so many images of ********* on a car forum before... Hint-hint, it doesn't help your image much, makes you look as though you really ENJOY looking at jiggling testes... Hmmmmm.... Not that there's anything wrong with that..

* Please be honest to yourself when pondering sales stats, and realize that it really doesn't pertain to the discussion of Shelby vs. ZL1. Prior to 2010, there hadn't been a Camaro available on the market for EIGHT YEARS. That created a strong pent-up demand, which the Camaro has benefitted handsomely from 2010-present. Just imagine if Ford turned-off the spigot on the Mustang for 8 years, and what would happen when it re-appeared in fresh-new duds... Therefore, comparing sales as if it's some valid-measure is apples/oranges, and rather pathetic considering the V6 cars drive the lion's share of the numbers. Both Camaro AND Mustang sales are driven more by style than substance, yet this is mostly a substance debate. So quit embarrassing yourself with the "we win in sales" argument. You'd be destroyed in high school debate club. Locally, I'm dismayed by how many 6-banger Camaros I see, I can't seem to find an SS out on the road to save my life.

* YES, GT500's equipped with the SVTPP have traction issues, big-time... It's the road-course-spec Goodyears that are the culprits... Not so much the size, they just don't grip fershit unless they're really hot. Great tire on a road-course once you've got them hot, and that's what SVT was going for. But not a drag tire. So it didn't surprise me to see the CTS-V jump the Shelby from the dig... But OBVIOUSLY, that bone-stock Shelby was reeling-in the Caddy at the end. Just a switch to Nitto's or Conti's really evens the field, and that's what I'll be doing once I rag-out my stock Goodyears. I'm too cheap to swap tires until they're ready to go.

* So yes, from a dig the Camaro will be a tough race for the 2013 GT500. Not from a roll, there's simply too much disparity in weight/hp ratio. The trap-speed on the '13 is likely going to be SICK, and I've always been a trap-speed kinda guy, dating back from my heavier drag racing days when cocky rich kids in GMC Syclones would kill me off the line at the drag-strip, and then I'd come by them on the tall end like Lion running down a water buffalo, laughing hysterically.

* It will be very interesting if one of the mags plops both these cars onto a good/big road-course, with a good driver piloting each car, and run the numbers. But.... How about waiting for that, instead of making goofy predictions, neither side knows.. And when did Chevy fans start getting so obsessed with a track in Germany anyhow??

Any-hoo, those are just my takes on your thread, sorry for charging in and acting like I own the place. Styling-wise, I'd be more interested in the ZL-1 if it didn't have the goofy ground-effects (1985 was a long time ago..) and over-done styling. I'd love one in regular SS-RS clothes, with all the mechanicals/chassis. The SS is the looker in my book, WITHOUT the body kit. Somebody earlier said that the ZL-1 was better looking than the standard Camaro, and the GT was better looking than the Shelby, and methinks he needs to set down the crack-pipe, but whada-I-know...

Oh, last point... 2012, 2013, hell call them 1492 models, it's just a NUMBER. Both cars are hitting showrooms close to the same time. They are most definitely comparable. And also know that 75% of the earlier-model GT500's out there are modded-up well beyond 600hp. I'm there just with $800 bucks spent, and next Tuesday, I go in for my new TVS blower, which will push me to 640rwhp, well over 700hp at the crank, at 3,870 lbs on the scale, stock-exhaust... And yes, spinning like a 1-legged-dog on re-caps!!

UnleashedBeast

iTrader: (2)

Good post, and truth on all accounts. ^^^

TriShield

The Mustang is getting trounced, it was the defacto king of the hill and that changed when the new Camaro bowed. The Camaro combines performance with concept car looks in a real production package that turns heads. The Mustang has been a bit stale and a bit behind ever since. Styling tweaks and new powertrains haven't reversed it's sales slide, which is a bit behind the Camaro overall year to year. That's why Ford has been going so hard with the update for 2010, 2011 and now 2013 before this generation is finally put to pasture.

The Challenger was not concieved to go head to head with the Mustang in sales. It gave Mopar nuts and fans of classic cars a thoroughly modern neo-classic to own and to love as well as a second (and now primary) halo car for Dodge. That said, only it's American rivals outsell it. The Challenger handily outsells every other coupe on the market.

88blackgt

The Camaro has sold a little over 12% more since the April 2009. Trounced is hardly the word for it. I could care less about sales but your choice of words is quite off.

As far as sales go, "trounced" is the entire 4th generation for Fbodies.

Iownboth

Really? Haven't sales been tracking within 7-10% of each other? Hardly a trouncing, and lest we not forget that Camaro sales are over 3,000,000 behind Mustang et al... "Trounced", that's like saying a basketball team "trounced" another team when they won 72-66.

Nice opinion... I also tend to avoid bragging that I "turn heads", because bloody multi-car pileups and funny-looking hair-do's also turn heads.

2009 - 66,623 2010 - 73,716 2011 - 68,650... Watch-out, it's a huge snowball rolling down a mountain!! That was sarcasm... Any-hoo, looks fairly stable to me, and pretty much right-on par with the Camaro's sales-graph...

Finally, a statement based in truth.

Your point?? Not to mention that "this generation" (as if it's some staggering drunk mule) has won its share head-to-head tests, and landed itself as one of the "10-Best-Cars" for 2012 in Car & Driver. Jeez, Ford needs to just shoot it to put it out of its misery, with that 10-best thing and all... (more sarcasm).

Says who? You? Odd that the Brand Manager for Dodge is moderating a Chevy forum (I'm full of the ol' sarcasm today! )

You just made that assumption up. 'Cause it's not true.

Here I just thought I had made a strong case as to why using the sales-figure-argument in this debate was silly and misleading and ridiculous, and the Moderator comes and doubles-down on it. I didn't see THAT coming...

The most depressing thing is, that our cars suck worse than Chevy Impalas, because more of those are sold...

gocartone

iTrader: (4)

It's getting "trounced" because HE likes the Camaro and the Challenger a whole lot more than the Mustang. He also always brings up how Dodge didn't make the Challenger to go head to head with the Camaro and the Mustang, simply because it gets beat everywhere by those two.

Have they released the MSRP for the 2013 GT500 yet?

MasterTomos

iTrader: (15)

* YES, GT500's equipped with the SVTPP have traction issues, big-time... It's the road-course-spec Goodyears that are the culprits... Not so much the size, they just don't grip fershit unless they're really hot. Great tire on a road-course once you've got them hot, and that's what SVT was going for. But not a drag tire. So it didn't surprise me to see the CTS-V jump the Shelby from the dig... But OBVIOUSLY, that bone-stock Shelby was reeling-in the Caddy at the end. Just a switch to Nitto's or Conti's really evens the field, and that's what I'll be doing once I rag-out my stock Goodyears. I'm too cheap to swap tires until they're ready to go.

Honestly, if picking between a track car, the ZL1 does have a lot more "road race equipment" than the GT500...I think the numbers will be a lot closer than people are thinking between the two...

A 10% difference in sales in a month's time is a HUGE difference lmao....we're not talking about a double digit basketball game..first quarter of 2011, Camaro sold nearly 2,000 cars, while Mustang was at 15,400 and change...nearly a 25% difference over 3 months, and IIRC, that wasn't even the biggest gap between the 2...

That'd be like a basketball game of 2,000 to 1,500 (500 points more, that's trouncing! ), or 200 to 150, or 20 to 15, or 2 to 1.5......however you'd like to simplify it


That being said, I really dont care about sales at all, I just thought that analogy was really bad...

No, I'd like to think it will be more than the ZL1, but it probably wont be...

Iownboth

Looking at the graph, you're cherry-picking specific/opportunistic windows in time to create your better-than-reality-average numbers. I could play the same game, intentionally misleading, by stating the fact that more Mustangs were delivered in June 2011 than Camaros. Honest math is honest math, and you sir must be a politician. And again, why does this sales-volume junk persist? It's all due to pent-up demand, period...

Google-up what Mustang sales were in 2005-2006 when Ford finally got their act together and released a Mustang that actually LOOKED like a Mustang. Even with no Shelby and low horsepower the sales during those years make the 2010 Camaro release look like a non-event. What fueled it? Pent-up-demand for the styling/history/legacy of the 60's models.

Your sales are fueled by pent-up demand for a good looking retro Camaro... Ford blew it's wad earlier, and cashed-in its 60's-success-equity in 2005 with its good looking retro Mustang. The Mustang sales today have NOTHING to do with, and NOTHING in common, with Camaro. It's too friggin ships passing in the night, and it will continue to ebb and flow back and forth, mostly dictated by V6-powered secretary cars.

And if you really insist on beating this lame numbers thing to death, why not find out how much of the Camaro production and sell-thru is SS (V8) sales?? Ford breaks their production out by model, but I can't seem to find it for GM. Probably, because the dirty little secret that their success is dominated by 6-cylinder buyers looking to pose on the cheap (you can hardly tell a V6 from an SS beyond the air-scoop) doesn't please the marketing folks too much.

For the 2011 model-year, Mustang total production was 68,650. Of that, 31,448 were V8-powered versions, 26,422 GT's, and 5,026 Shelbys. That's 45%, a pretty strong showing for the performance versions, and 2012 will likely be even stronger with the addition of the Boss 302.

How do Camaro SS sales compare to Mustang GT/Shelby/Boss sales? How many "performance-minded" Americans are choosing SS's compared to V8-powered Mustangs?

Dig it up, and THEN maybe we've got something to talk about that's valid regarding the sales-war between Ford and Chevy. Currently, as I've said from the beginning, it's a pathetic, weak and floppy limb on your debate tree.

unit213

Just playing devil's advocate here...perhaps you should do a little research and find out why the Camaro exists.

nanokpsi

Not to mention why it was brought back from the grave with retro inspired looks.

The best part fo the arguement to me is the irony behind the sales figures. Sales figures didn't mean much the F-body fans when the mustangs were kicking their butts in the sales department becuase the Camaro performed better. Now the mustang performs better but doesn't sell as well, the sales figures point to the better car.

Honestly, sales figures don't mean anything to "us" provided they are high enough to continue on with the model. What we should care about is the better performing car. The LS powered cars were a **** ton better than the early mod stangs, and the new stangs are better than the new Camaro.