Camaro Chief Engineer says "You're Welcome" to Ford Mustang fans
12-16-2011, 05:18 PM
#121
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Not to mention why it was brought back from the grave with retro inspired looks.
The best part fo the arguement to me is the irony behind the sales figures. Sales figures didn't mean much the F-body fans when the mustangs were kicking their butts in the sales department becuase the Camaro performed better. Now the mustang performs better but doesn't sell as well, the sales figures point to the better car.
Honestly, sales figures don't mean anything to "us" provided they are high enough to continue on with the model. What we should care about is the better performing car. The LS powered cars were a **** ton better than the early mod stangs, and the new stangs are better than the new Camaro.
The best part fo the arguement to me is the irony behind the sales figures. Sales figures didn't mean much the F-body fans when the mustangs were kicking their butts in the sales department becuase the Camaro performed better. Now the mustang performs better but doesn't sell as well, the sales figures point to the better car.
Honestly, sales figures don't mean anything to "us" provided they are high enough to continue on with the model. What we should care about is the better performing car. The LS powered cars were a **** ton better than the early mod stangs, and the new stangs are better than the new Camaro.
(and no, I'm not a Mustang fanboy, just showing that using that argument to say your car is better is lame). 
12-17-2011, 12:30 AM
#122
Looking at the graph, you're cherry-picking specific/opportunistic windows in time to create your better-than-reality-average numbers. I could play the same game, intentionally misleading, by stating the fact that more Mustangs were delivered in June 2011 than Camaros. Honest math is honest math, and you sir must be a politician. And again, why does this sales-volume junk persist? It's all due to pent-up demand, period...
Google-up what Mustang sales were in 2005-2006 when Ford finally got their act together and released a Mustang that actually LOOKED like a Mustang. Even with no Shelby and low horsepower the sales during those years make the 2010 Camaro release look like a non-event. What fueled it? Pent-up-demand for the styling/history/legacy of the 60's models.
Your sales are fueled by pent-up demand for a good looking retro Camaro... Ford blew it's wad earlier, and cashed-in its 60's-success-equity in 2005 with its good looking retro Mustang. The Mustang sales today have NOTHING to do with, and NOTHING in common, with Camaro. It's too friggin ships passing in the night, and it will continue to ebb and flow back and forth, mostly dictated by V6-powered secretary cars.
And if you really insist on beating this lame numbers thing to death, why not find out how much of the Camaro production and sell-thru is SS (V8) sales?? Ford breaks their production out by model, but I can't seem to find it for GM. Probably, because the dirty little secret that their success is dominated by 6-cylinder buyers looking to pose on the cheap (you can hardly tell a V6 from an SS beyond the air-scoop) doesn't please the marketing folks too much.
For the 2011 model-year, Mustang total production was 68,650. Of that, 31,448 were V8-powered versions, 26,422 GT's, and 5,026 Shelbys. That's 45%, a pretty strong showing for the performance versions, and 2012 will likely be even stronger with the addition of the Boss 302.
How do Camaro SS sales compare to Mustang GT/Shelby/Boss sales? How many "performance-minded" Americans are choosing SS's compared to V8-powered Mustangs?
Dig it up, and THEN maybe we've got something to talk about that's valid regarding the sales-war between Ford and Chevy. Currently, as I've said from the beginning, it's a pathetic, weak and floppy limb on your debate tree.
Google-up what Mustang sales were in 2005-2006 when Ford finally got their act together and released a Mustang that actually LOOKED like a Mustang. Even with no Shelby and low horsepower the sales during those years make the 2010 Camaro release look like a non-event. What fueled it? Pent-up-demand for the styling/history/legacy of the 60's models.
Your sales are fueled by pent-up demand for a good looking retro Camaro... Ford blew it's wad earlier, and cashed-in its 60's-success-equity in 2005 with its good looking retro Mustang. The Mustang sales today have NOTHING to do with, and NOTHING in common, with Camaro. It's too friggin ships passing in the night, and it will continue to ebb and flow back and forth, mostly dictated by V6-powered secretary cars.
And if you really insist on beating this lame numbers thing to death, why not find out how much of the Camaro production and sell-thru is SS (V8) sales?? Ford breaks their production out by model, but I can't seem to find it for GM. Probably, because the dirty little secret that their success is dominated by 6-cylinder buyers looking to pose on the cheap (you can hardly tell a V6 from an SS beyond the air-scoop) doesn't please the marketing folks too much.
For the 2011 model-year, Mustang total production was 68,650. Of that, 31,448 were V8-powered versions, 26,422 GT's, and 5,026 Shelbys. That's 45%, a pretty strong showing for the performance versions, and 2012 will likely be even stronger with the addition of the Boss 302.
How do Camaro SS sales compare to Mustang GT/Shelby/Boss sales? How many "performance-minded" Americans are choosing SS's compared to V8-powered Mustangs?
Dig it up, and THEN maybe we've got something to talk about that's valid regarding the sales-war between Ford and Chevy. Currently, as I've said from the beginning, it's a pathetic, weak and floppy limb on your debate tree.
FACT: Deliveries since April 2009/Camaro: 224,262
FACT: Deliveries since April 2009/Mustang: 195, 875
FACT: Camaro is outselling mustang since April 2009 12.7%
(Anyone who knows anything about business should know that's a huge difference.)
FACT: In the last 30 months, there has been only 6 months where Mustang has outsold the Camaro...
Gm hasn't release a model breakdown that I've seen, so assuming any facts about it is just speculation and can't be backed by any real numbers.
And the whole "pent up demand" thing? Honestly, who's picking apart sales more here? GM and Ford aren't releasing statements on why people bought their cars, that's pure speculation, and an argument/debate that can't be won because there is no "fact" or numbers...just opinions.
I'm throwing out real numbers here, you've got diarrhea at the mouth of opinions on stuff that can't be proven or dis-proven really...and my "debate tree" has floppy limbs? If we after clever metaphors here, I wouldn't hand a tire swing from your debate tree
Last edited by MasterTomos; 12-17-2011 at 12:36 AM.
12-17-2011, 01:22 AM
#123
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FACT: There are many cars that outsell both that I would NEVER own, so why does it matter which sells better?
FACT: Arguing which car sells better is worse than arguing whose car is faster; at least then the debate is about how a car actually performs.
FACT: Arguing which car sells better is worse than arguing whose car is faster; at least then the debate is about how a car actually performs.
12-18-2011, 09:39 AM
#124
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Sales are one thing but I would bet Ford is profitting more per Mustang sold as the basic design dates back to the 2005 model year. With the Camaro, even with it having more sales, I would think GM is still trying to make back its development costs to this point, unless they somehow dumped most of those costs in with the Old GM and not the New GM. Honestly, the ZL1 improvements helps me like the 5gen somewhat but the GT500 does more for me. Still like the SRT8 Challengers looks more then either the Stang or Camaro but they are underpowered and overpriced. The GM engineer should be thanking Ford as they stood up and said the Gov should bail them out as it would hurt the US auto industry as a whole. Eitherway, I like the fact the Stang is made here in the US unlike the Camaro and Challenger made in Canada.
12-19-2011, 10:47 AM
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Thanks gokartone, for injecting some logic and reason back into this thread. And nanokpsi also scores strongly on my "objective-thought-o-meter"
Looks like no one can find statistics for the actual Camaro PERFORMANCE models. If there's any point to bickering over sales (and there's not), it's in comparing the V8 models, not pointing at a slightly-better sales advantage fueled by bottom-rung 6-bangers and deluding yourself that it's some sort of "victory".
It's every bit as pointless as Dodge Omni GLHS owners claiming "best car" bragging-rights because the Omni outsold Camaro and Mustang combined in 1986. Grandmothers and penny-pinchers must've been proud that year!
Do you get it now?
I also read a (unsubstantiated but worth looking into) post on another forum today stating that GM had 100-days worth of un-sold Camaro inventory sitting on dealer lots.
Bottom-line, you wanna compare GT500 to ZL1?? Stick to the cars, don't let your little sister (who owns the V6 Camaro) do your fighting for you... It's not a flattering exercise.
Looks like no one can find statistics for the actual Camaro PERFORMANCE models. If there's any point to bickering over sales (and there's not), it's in comparing the V8 models, not pointing at a slightly-better sales advantage fueled by bottom-rung 6-bangers and deluding yourself that it's some sort of "victory".
It's every bit as pointless as Dodge Omni GLHS owners claiming "best car" bragging-rights because the Omni outsold Camaro and Mustang combined in 1986. Grandmothers and penny-pinchers must've been proud that year!
Do you get it now?I also read a (unsubstantiated but worth looking into) post on another forum today stating that GM had 100-days worth of un-sold Camaro inventory sitting on dealer lots.
Bottom-line, you wanna compare GT500 to ZL1?? Stick to the cars, don't let your little sister (who owns the V6 Camaro) do your fighting for you... It's not a flattering exercise.
12-19-2011, 11:15 AM
#126
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Sales are one thing but I would bet Ford is profitting more per Mustang sold as the basic design dates back to the 2005 model year. With the Camaro, even with it having more sales, I would think GM is still trying to make back its development costs to this point, unless they somehow dumped most of those costs in with the Old GM and not the New GM. Honestly, the ZL1 improvements helps me like the 5gen somewhat but the GT500 does more for me. Still like the SRT8 Challengers looks more then either the Stang or Camaro but they are underpowered and overpriced. The GM engineer should be thanking Ford as they stood up and said the Gov should bail them out as it would hurt the US auto industry as a whole. Eitherway, I like the fact the Stang is made here in the US unlike the Camaro and Challenger made in Canada.
Too much logic
12-19-2011, 12:40 PM
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Yes, it's been a problem that Ford's been slowly fixing, but it's a bit stereotypical to assume that everything is "junk" out of China. I've got a Chinese-assembled Getrag 6-speed in my Carrera S and it's been an absolute gem, best gearbox in any car I've ever owned.
What, do you think all of the components in our cars that are made in Mexico are all that much better?
Not to mention that EVERY aspect of both Ford and GM vehicles, as it applies to quality, is LIGHT YEARS ahead of the under-engineered donkey turds they were churning-out in the early-80's. I find it hard to complain much about quality these days, cars are generally built so well, regardless of what sign is on top of the poll by the road.
12-21-2011, 02:21 AM
#129
I don't think the sales numbers are indicators of which car performs better whatsoever. I do, however, find market numbers interesting and if someone wants talk about it, I can make conversation (based on facts) because I check out the sales numbers sometimes out of personal curiosity.
Sorry for "starting" this debate, let's get back to comparing 2 cars that don't exist yet...
12-21-2011, 09:07 AM
#130
You're referring to the Chinese-built Ford/Getrag MT82 6-speed Transmission I suppose... That's not the transmission used in the GT500.
Yes, it's been a problem that Ford's been slowly fixing, but it's a bit stereotypical to assume that everything is "junk" out of China.
Yes, it's been a problem that Ford's been slowly fixing, but it's a bit stereotypical to assume that everything is "junk" out of China.
I have nothing against the GT500, I would love one. I would prefer it over the ZL1 on looks alone. Point was just it doesn't matter where something is made when it's assembled there from junk parts, be it Ford/Chevy/Dodge or Gibson (Epiphone)/Fender/Ibanez...junk is junk.
But to answer your other question based on my personal experiences, yes I would take a Hecho en Mexico part over a Made in China part (by a small margin, but a margin none the less).
12-21-2011, 09:36 AM
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I never said everything was junk, but from personal experience the above mentioned unit is junk and I would never even think twice about being associated with another one. While it's not the unit used in the GT500 it is a unit used in the Mustangs, which I thought was relevent in the discussion of where the big 3 pony cars are made.
I have nothing against the GT500, I would love one. I would prefer it over the ZL1 on looks alone. Point was just it doesn't matter where something is made when it's assembled there from junk parts, be it Ford/Chevy/Dodge or Gibson (Epiphone)/Fender/Ibanez...junk is junk.
But to answer your other question based on my personal experiences, yes I would take a Hecho en Mexico part over a Made in China part (by a small margin, but a margin none the less).
I have nothing against the GT500, I would love one. I would prefer it over the ZL1 on looks alone. Point was just it doesn't matter where something is made when it's assembled there from junk parts, be it Ford/Chevy/Dodge or Gibson (Epiphone)/Fender/Ibanez...junk is junk.
But to answer your other question based on my personal experiences, yes I would take a Hecho en Mexico part over a Made in China part (by a small margin, but a margin none the less).
I'm also not a fan of the overkill ZL1 styling, just as I wouldn't go out on the town wearing a batman costume.
Has it really been determined yet whether the MT82 issues are a design/engineering-flaw, or a materials/quality flaw? I don't pretend to know, but I've yet to read anything definitive... If it's the former rather than the latter, then it's some engineers at Getrag that are to blame, not the assembly-folks in China.
Any-hoo, onward and upward...
12-21-2011, 09:59 AM
#132
Gotcha, valid reply, I just get a bit defensive when blanket stereotypes start getting tossed-around.
Has it really been determined yet whether the MT82 issues are a design/engineering-flaw, or a materials/quality flaw? I don't pretend to know, but I've yet to read anything definitive... If it's the former rather than the latter, then it's some engineers at Getrag that are to blame, not the assembly-folks in China.
Has it really been determined yet whether the MT82 issues are a design/engineering-flaw, or a materials/quality flaw? I don't pretend to know, but I've yet to read anything definitive... If it's the former rather than the latter, then it's some engineers at Getrag that are to blame, not the assembly-folks in China.
On the particular unit that was in my brother's car, the new owner he traded it to went on to tear it down and had a connection at Ford to even get it warrantied and the cause determined to be a faulty 2nd gear and synchro which according to them was caused by improper hardening of the gears. There was likely a run of gears that slipped through QC.
12-21-2011, 10:12 AM
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Metallurgy, you've got the hardening, and/or it could be Hydrogen embrittlement. Wonder if the parts are made in China, or just assembled. Oh well, sh** happens with every manufacturer, sad to hear that Ford isn't properly jumping on this one.
On another note, Justin Starkey of VMP has been running high-9's with his wife's stock-block 5.0 Automatic... So maybe the slushbox is the durable way to go!
He's yanked the motor though, and building it to ensure he doesn't visit a catastrophic failure.. Still, damn impressive out of 5.0L with a big blower and exhaust.
On another note, Justin Starkey of VMP has been running high-9's with his wife's stock-block 5.0 Automatic... So maybe the slushbox is the durable way to go!
He's yanked the motor though, and building it to ensure he doesn't visit a catastrophic failure.. Still, damn impressive out of 5.0L with a big blower and exhaust.
12-21-2011, 10:25 AM
#134
My complaint is even less the junk part and more the way they dismissed the claim as abuse right off the bat and wanted to just sweep it under the rug without even looking at it. Again I know this is not a brand specific occurrence but it is no less infuriating.
The new owner of that car is now running mid 11s with no changes other than the trans rebuild and some slicks. Other guys are running 10s on them...
The new owner of that car is now running mid 11s with no changes other than the trans rebuild and some slicks. Other guys are running 10s on them...
12-21-2011, 10:44 AM
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And sometimes the way a warranty claim is handled differs from sales-district to sales-district, with different district managers in charge... I can understand his frustration..
12-21-2011, 11:54 AM
#136
"For Mustang fans, you're welcome. Clearly the Camaro has encouraged Ford to throw everything they can at us."
Camaro Nation:
As you know, the blogs lit up with the announcement of the new 650-horsepower Mustang GT500, and I wanted to give you my perspective on the latest challenge from Dearborn.
The Mustang has been playing catch up since the moment the fifth-gen Camaro arrived in 2009. Since then, Camaro has been the best-selling sports car in America, indicating that consumers know which car offers the best performance, style and safety.
It is no coincidence that Mustang has introduced three 100-horsepower increases to keep pace with Camaro: First their V-6 was bumped to 305; then their V-8 went to 412, and now the GT500.
Even with the 100-hp increase, the 2013 GT500 will still not match the technology and sophistication of the 2012 Camaro ZL1.
The days of "no replacement for displacement," are over, and it's not enough to be fast in a straight line. With the Camaro ZL1, we set out to deliver integrated performance, and be equally good at acceleration, braking, grip, and turning. As you will soon see, that's why the Camaro ZL1 will set the performance benchmark for the segment.
Our approach was to make every Camaro ZL1 fully track-capable, from the factory. As we announced today, the ZL1 Coupe will start at $54,995 with standard Magnetic Ride Control, standard Performance Traction Management, and standard track-capable equipment such as a rear-differential cooler, brake cooling ducts, and an engine and transmission cooler.
None of our customers will have to buy extra options – or modify their ZL1 – for track-day usage. That is not the case for the current GT500, or their new car.
For Mustang fans, you're welcome. Clearly the Camaro has encouraged Ford to throw everything they can at us.
For Camaro fans, trust me, we are always listening to your feedback, and working hard to keep the Camaro in the lead.
Al O.
Camaro Nation:
As you know, the blogs lit up with the announcement of the new 650-horsepower Mustang GT500, and I wanted to give you my perspective on the latest challenge from Dearborn.
The Mustang has been playing catch up since the moment the fifth-gen Camaro arrived in 2009. Since then, Camaro has been the best-selling sports car in America, indicating that consumers know which car offers the best performance, style and safety.
It is no coincidence that Mustang has introduced three 100-horsepower increases to keep pace with Camaro: First their V-6 was bumped to 305; then their V-8 went to 412, and now the GT500.
Even with the 100-hp increase, the 2013 GT500 will still not match the technology and sophistication of the 2012 Camaro ZL1.
The days of "no replacement for displacement," are over, and it's not enough to be fast in a straight line. With the Camaro ZL1, we set out to deliver integrated performance, and be equally good at acceleration, braking, grip, and turning. As you will soon see, that's why the Camaro ZL1 will set the performance benchmark for the segment.
Our approach was to make every Camaro ZL1 fully track-capable, from the factory. As we announced today, the ZL1 Coupe will start at $54,995 with standard Magnetic Ride Control, standard Performance Traction Management, and standard track-capable equipment such as a rear-differential cooler, brake cooling ducts, and an engine and transmission cooler.
None of our customers will have to buy extra options – or modify their ZL1 – for track-day usage. That is not the case for the current GT500, or their new car.
For Mustang fans, you're welcome. Clearly the Camaro has encouraged Ford to throw everything they can at us.
For Camaro fans, trust me, we are always listening to your feedback, and working hard to keep the Camaro in the lead.
Al O.
SOLID REAR AXLE!
12-21-2011, 04:27 PM
#138
That's fine whatever it takes. Just needs to be available out of the dealership that way.
And with a good rear end housing, at least the 14 bolt out of the SS trailblazer.. something that can be beefed up and take the abuse, (don't stick a junk 10 bolt in it please!)
And with a good rear end housing, at least the 14 bolt out of the SS trailblazer.. something that can be beefed up and take the abuse, (don't stick a junk 10 bolt in it please!)
12-21-2011, 04:39 PM
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Dude, COPO's are street-UNlegal drag cars, can't be registered for the street, and will cost a small FORTUNE (will make a ZL1 look cheap)... Alot of good that does for the average Joe who wants to build a street/strip terror. It's just a competitor to the Cobra Jet Mustang drag car, and the Drag Pak Challenger.
If that were to be the "Engineer's response", what a lame-o response it would be.
If that were to be the "Engineer's response", what a lame-o response it would be.