Delphi files for Bankruptcy
10-10-2005, 12:19 AM
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UAW Statement on Delphi Filing for Bankruptcy
Saturday October 8, 3:23 pm ET
DETROIT, Oct. 8 /PRNewswire/ -- UAW President Ron Gettelfinger and UAW Vice President Richard Shoemaker today issued this statement on the decision by Delphi Corp. to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection:
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"The UAW is deeply disappointed by the decision by the Board of Directors of Delphi Corp. to today file for bankruptcy.
"Delphi's decision is obviously an extremely bitter pill for the 25,000 Delphi workers represented by the UAW as well as for the thousands of workers represented by other unions and non-union salaried Delphi employees -- all of whom have worked hard to try to make Delphi's U.S. operations successful.
"The UAW is committed to doing everything we possibly can to protect the interests of our active and retired members and their families. Unfortunately, this is not the first time that the UAW has had to deal with a court-ordered corporate restructuring, and we will vigorously use our experience, expertise and resources to represent the interests of UAW-Delphi workers and retirees throughout this process.
"Over the past several months, the UAW has engaged in discussions with Delphi to craft a mutually agreeable approach to the company's financial problems that would have enabled Delphi to avoid filing for bankruptcy. We made it clear to Delphi that we were willing to continue discussions and to consider a wide range of options. However, from the outset of talks about a possible bankruptcy filing, Delphi made it clear that the UAW alone could not solve the company's problems.
"Delphi today informed the UAW that it was filing for bankruptcy -- more than a week before the new federal bankruptcy law will go into effect.
"Delphi's decision would be extremely disappointing under any circumstances, but it is all the more so in light of the company's announcement on Friday -- just one day before filing bankruptcy -- that it had sweetened the severance packages for Delph's 21 most highly compensated executives because the old severance package was -- as a Delphi spokesperson put it -- 'uncompetitive.'
"Once again, we see the disgusting spectacle of the people at the top taking care of themselves at the same time they are demanding extraordinary sacrifices from their hourly workers, engineers, administrative and support staff, mid-level managers and others. All of them deserved better from Delphi's senior executive leadership."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: UAW
Saturday October 8, 3:23 pm ET
DETROIT, Oct. 8 /PRNewswire/ -- UAW President Ron Gettelfinger and UAW Vice President Richard Shoemaker today issued this statement on the decision by Delphi Corp. to file for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection:
ADVERTISEMENT
"The UAW is deeply disappointed by the decision by the Board of Directors of Delphi Corp. to today file for bankruptcy.
"Delphi's decision is obviously an extremely bitter pill for the 25,000 Delphi workers represented by the UAW as well as for the thousands of workers represented by other unions and non-union salaried Delphi employees -- all of whom have worked hard to try to make Delphi's U.S. operations successful.
"The UAW is committed to doing everything we possibly can to protect the interests of our active and retired members and their families. Unfortunately, this is not the first time that the UAW has had to deal with a court-ordered corporate restructuring, and we will vigorously use our experience, expertise and resources to represent the interests of UAW-Delphi workers and retirees throughout this process.
"Over the past several months, the UAW has engaged in discussions with Delphi to craft a mutually agreeable approach to the company's financial problems that would have enabled Delphi to avoid filing for bankruptcy. We made it clear to Delphi that we were willing to continue discussions and to consider a wide range of options. However, from the outset of talks about a possible bankruptcy filing, Delphi made it clear that the UAW alone could not solve the company's problems.
"Delphi today informed the UAW that it was filing for bankruptcy -- more than a week before the new federal bankruptcy law will go into effect.
"Delphi's decision would be extremely disappointing under any circumstances, but it is all the more so in light of the company's announcement on Friday -- just one day before filing bankruptcy -- that it had sweetened the severance packages for Delph's 21 most highly compensated executives because the old severance package was -- as a Delphi spokesperson put it -- 'uncompetitive.'
"Once again, we see the disgusting spectacle of the people at the top taking care of themselves at the same time they are demanding extraordinary sacrifices from their hourly workers, engineers, administrative and support staff, mid-level managers and others. All of them deserved better from Delphi's senior executive leadership."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source: UAW
10-10-2005, 01:08 AM
#23
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Unions can be good, and in fact started out as being good. They greatly improved working conditions, pay rates, etc. However, there are now laws on federal, state, and even local levels which provide all the positives a union can, with exception to global pay hikes (often without respect to merit), and "protection" from the employer.
Pay, like the cost of the products these companies make, is easily determined by Fair Market Value. A manufacturer should be able to pay whatever they want to pay a worker, and the worker should be able to be paid what they require to do the job. When both can agree on an amount, employment is achieved.
The type of "protection" I speak of is the very same type implied by others in this thread, where either the employee isn't doing the work he agreed to do for the cost agreed upon, yet still receives that same salary, the management is abusive to the employee, or vice versa. Either of these can be regulated by quiting/firing or lawsuit (though I'm not a big fan of the latter).
In short, there is no good reason to have unions anymore. Of course, I live in a right-to-work state, so I may be biased, but they don't work here, and they aren't needed either.
That stated, I can sympathize with anyone in the situation where their union controlled benefits/salaries may be effected by such an action, but they should count themselves fortunate to have had it in the first place, as it is something most companies simply cannot afford to maintain. If the company goes out of business, so do the union workers. I hope this will serve as a wake-up call to the union as well.
FWIW, $10/hr is a far cry from $55-60k/yr. While I value traditional family structures where 1 parent is able to stay at home, it may not be feasable anymore, or you may need to re-evaluate your budget to accomodate it.
Pay, like the cost of the products these companies make, is easily determined by Fair Market Value. A manufacturer should be able to pay whatever they want to pay a worker, and the worker should be able to be paid what they require to do the job. When both can agree on an amount, employment is achieved.
The type of "protection" I speak of is the very same type implied by others in this thread, where either the employee isn't doing the work he agreed to do for the cost agreed upon, yet still receives that same salary, the management is abusive to the employee, or vice versa. Either of these can be regulated by quiting/firing or lawsuit (though I'm not a big fan of the latter).
In short, there is no good reason to have unions anymore. Of course, I live in a right-to-work state, so I may be biased, but they don't work here, and they aren't needed either.
That stated, I can sympathize with anyone in the situation where their union controlled benefits/salaries may be effected by such an action, but they should count themselves fortunate to have had it in the first place, as it is something most companies simply cannot afford to maintain. If the company goes out of business, so do the union workers. I hope this will serve as a wake-up call to the union as well.
FWIW, $10/hr is a far cry from $55-60k/yr. While I value traditional family structures where 1 parent is able to stay at home, it may not be feasable anymore, or you may need to re-evaluate your budget to accomodate it.
10-10-2005, 08:49 AM
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The unions (leaders, reps, etc.) have and always will be out of touch on one point... the employee is expendable. You can't dictate to the company what the wages of their employees will be. At first it raises prices...eventually it disables the company from being competitive. We will see this scenario played out more and more as our economy changes with the competition from other countries.
10-10-2005, 11:09 AM
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i am a (not so proud) uaw member, and to cast all of it's members as overpaid ungrateful leaches is ridiculous.....as unskilled as they may be, any line worker that is making anywhere near 100k is working a 70-80 hours week, which isn't so much fun....no doubt they are good jobs, but the image of the union guy sitting smoking a cig for 8 hours and clocking out is overplayed and not true.....you want to talk about getting overpaid? how about supervisors that can't tie their own shoes getting a 200 percent profit sharing bonus when the guy on the line doing the work gets 2 percent..
the problem with the uaw is it's leadership.....they live like kings, take bribes like i eat breakfast, treat the workers like peasants, and are accountable to no one.......their gluttony is equaled only by big business management, who make shoddy and shady business decisions, and when they backfire they get big severence packages paid for by joe shmo.......
a properly run union is required for a capitalistic society to succeed.....i was completely anti-union when i used to work for steelcase as a kid: they were(are?) the largest furniture manufacturer in the world, they paid world class wages and treated employees firmly and fairly....it seemed to me the only folks that wanted to unionize were the slackers......but the last five years have served as an example as to what the lack of worker representation can do to a community: they change management, outsource practically everything, and started laying off pretty much everyone.......yeah, yeah, yeah, finding a new job is part of life, but when you've been working for a place for 20 years, when you are retired and have no other means of medical aid or benifits, when the loyalty and hard work you have shown that company is discarded like the trash on tuesday morning, it has ripped families apart, communities apart, and is doing a number on the economy as well.......
the problem with the uaw is it's leadership.....they live like kings, take bribes like i eat breakfast, treat the workers like peasants, and are accountable to no one.......their gluttony is equaled only by big business management, who make shoddy and shady business decisions, and when they backfire they get big severence packages paid for by joe shmo.......
a properly run union is required for a capitalistic society to succeed.....i was completely anti-union when i used to work for steelcase as a kid: they were(are?) the largest furniture manufacturer in the world, they paid world class wages and treated employees firmly and fairly....it seemed to me the only folks that wanted to unionize were the slackers......but the last five years have served as an example as to what the lack of worker representation can do to a community: they change management, outsource practically everything, and started laying off pretty much everyone.......yeah, yeah, yeah, finding a new job is part of life, but when you've been working for a place for 20 years, when you are retired and have no other means of medical aid or benifits, when the loyalty and hard work you have shown that company is discarded like the trash on tuesday morning, it has ripped families apart, communities apart, and is doing a number on the economy as well.......
Last edited by jdustu; 10-10-2005 at 11:41 AM.
10-10-2005, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by White_Hawk
The rebates are the lowered prices. Don't you see that? They can't sell cars without them. Nobody in the US can. Even Toyota is running rebates now. When you run rebates all the time, it is the same as lowering the price. The average vehicle transaction price has dropped for the last four years. Go do some research if you don't believe me. I have seen the charts.
-Geoff
10-10-2005, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by jdustu
the problem with the uaw is it's leadership.....they live like kings, take bribes like i eat breakfast, treat the workers like peasants, and are accountable to no one.......their gluttony is equaled only by big business management, who make shoddy and shady business decisions, and when they backfire they get big severence packages paid for by joe shmo.......
Originally Posted by jdustu
a properly run union is required for a capitalistic society to succeed.....
In the realm of workers' rights, unions used to be essential until the Democrats in government (who are supposed to be the unions' party) introduced legislation after legislation to help the working person thereby taking away from the union. It's still a win for the working person, but not necessarily for the union.
10-10-2005, 12:09 PM
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speaking of marx.......you don't think big business has a lot to do with big government? you are right, a lot of what the union was created for(child labor, unfair hours without compensation, ect.) is now legislated, but there are still plenty of loopholes for an employer to screw over any employee almost anytime it feels like it.......i agree that the union now often protects those who don't deserve it, but that's a cycle that looks to be coming to an end soon.....
a properly run union isn't anti-capitalism either......and neither was karl marx, he was anti-big business gone unchecked by governement, and pro-worker, while our current union's closeness with big business is a big part of the problem right now. have you ever read "das kapital?" he basically describes our economy as it would like to be
the union is definetly a part of the problem, but delphi's management has been digging their own grave for years now
EDIT: i should clarify that marx was "anti-capitalism" in defintion, but his idea of how an economy should be run and our "capitalist" economy are very similar(i.e. big government and supposed anti-monopoly) with many of the same socialist ideals
Except for the minute fact that a labor union is a Marxist as you can get. Unions are not capitalism. And in the worst examples such as Delphi and GM and other companies that have made too many concessions to their unions, show that such a company is at a disadvantage in a capitalist economy.
the union is definetly a part of the problem, but delphi's management has been digging their own grave for years now
EDIT: i should clarify that marx was "anti-capitalism" in defintion, but his idea of how an economy should be run and our "capitalist" economy are very similar(i.e. big government and supposed anti-monopoly) with many of the same socialist ideals
Last edited by jdustu; 10-10-2005 at 12:53 PM.
10-10-2005, 12:55 PM
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Marx was a socialist. He didn't like the pitfalls of capitalism. Das Kapital does not describe Marxism but instead it critiques capitalism. In his works concerning Marxism and the rise of the labor class you can see a direct relation to the labor unions of this country. To the point I made earlier...the employee is expendable until you create a union. Now an employer is forced to employ someone that *might* be unproductive. In the other direction (such as you mentioned) government has taken on the role of protecting the worker more and more over the years. The rights that the unions claim to protect are now protected by the government with the exception of being fired. The union contract only protects your wages/benefits until the expiration date. At that time the company can decide not to renew and send all your jobs overseas.
One of the things I see everyday is the margin between blue collar and white collar work growing. As new white collar jobs are created a market has to define itself in order to balance. My field (IT) a few years back was very lucrative until the market balanced and now wages are much lower. Since this is a relatively new field compared to the auto industry the wages reflect the economy of the time. The wages will stagnate now and only grow with inflation. Blue collar jobs that have existed for decades have been trying to keep pace ahead of inflation when in reality the job hasn't changed or has been made easier over the years. People want to earn a living, but the standard of living ends up increasing beyond their reach. The harsh reality of the situation is that those jobs should pay what they paid years ago + inflation.
One of the things I see everyday is the margin between blue collar and white collar work growing. As new white collar jobs are created a market has to define itself in order to balance. My field (IT) a few years back was very lucrative until the market balanced and now wages are much lower. Since this is a relatively new field compared to the auto industry the wages reflect the economy of the time. The wages will stagnate now and only grow with inflation. Blue collar jobs that have existed for decades have been trying to keep pace ahead of inflation when in reality the job hasn't changed or has been made easier over the years. People want to earn a living, but the standard of living ends up increasing beyond their reach. The harsh reality of the situation is that those jobs should pay what they paid years ago + inflation.
10-10-2005, 12:58 PM
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The company always wants to stick it to the little
guy, and the union (on behalf of the little guy) wants
to stick it to The Man. So everybody gets stuck and
nothing runs right. Like when I lived up there people
would always tell me stories about how you'd get
grievanced if you move your own terminal from one
table to anouther without the union guy lifting it for
you (following proper request & authorization of course).
Yeah, that's a productivity booster and competitive
edge type situation.
Adversaries in the same house just doesn't work like a
family pulling together. But then, corporate America
is like Father Knows Best on a 3 crack-apple Martini
lunch. Go to your room, Kitten. Oh, by the way, Daddy
spent your allowance on crack-apple Martinis....
guy, and the union (on behalf of the little guy) wants
to stick it to The Man. So everybody gets stuck and
nothing runs right. Like when I lived up there people
would always tell me stories about how you'd get
grievanced if you move your own terminal from one
table to anouther without the union guy lifting it for
you (following proper request & authorization of course).
Yeah, that's a productivity booster and competitive
edge type situation.
Adversaries in the same house just doesn't work like a
family pulling together. But then, corporate America
is like Father Knows Best on a 3 crack-apple Martini
lunch. Go to your room, Kitten. Oh, by the way, Daddy
spent your allowance on crack-apple Martinis....
10-10-2005, 01:19 PM
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Originally Posted by technical
Marx was a socialist. He didn't like the pitfalls of capitalism.
10-10-2005, 01:36 PM
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the bottom line with delphi is that they were thrown into a gunfight with a squirt gun.....gm brass spun them off KNOWING that they were already paying them more than market value, and when the automakers they supplied lost business and demanded concessions they couldn't keep up, even while cooking the books........not to mention they inherited gm's issue of too many retirees being supported by too few workers, something that is looking more and more like a microcosim of the u.s.'s ss problem......they could be paying these guys "fair market value" and they'd still be in trouble, just like delta and nwa, because material costs were going up and demand went down.......
10-10-2005, 01:41 PM
#33
10-11-2005, 11:10 AM
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DELPHI FACES PENSION FUND LAWSUIT
From Oakland tech news in Oakland county michigan
Two state pension funds and other shareholders are suing auto supplier Delphi Corp., claiming executives lied about the company's finances in order to protect their jobs and artificially inflate Delphi's stock price.
The lawsuit is the latest blow for the largest U.S. auto supplier, which is threatening to declare bankruptcy by Oct. 17th if it fails to reach a deal with General Motors Corp. and the UAW to lower costs....
The article continues but this is the brunt of it.
The lawsuit was filed in New York last week. It can be found at the website of Bernstein, Litowitz, Berger and Grossman, the New York law firm representing the plaintiffs.
From Oakland tech news in Oakland county michigan
Two state pension funds and other shareholders are suing auto supplier Delphi Corp., claiming executives lied about the company's finances in order to protect their jobs and artificially inflate Delphi's stock price.
The lawsuit is the latest blow for the largest U.S. auto supplier, which is threatening to declare bankruptcy by Oct. 17th if it fails to reach a deal with General Motors Corp. and the UAW to lower costs....
The article continues but this is the brunt of it.
The lawsuit was filed in New York last week. It can be found at the website of Bernstein, Litowitz, Berger and Grossman, the New York law firm representing the plaintiffs.
Last edited by ActionJack; 10-11-2005 at 11:35 AM.
10-11-2005, 11:54 AM
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From CNN.com, today
Wow, to go from $65/hr wages + benefits (which is probably ~$35/hr take home pay before taxes) to $20/hr ($12/take home), man... I could see how the union would have problems with that. Obviously something needs to be done in order to keep the company from being broken apart.
In an interview with the Wall Street Journal published Tuesday, Miller told the paper that if the United Auto Workers agrees to cut wages and benefits to about $20 an hour, Delphi could be competitive with other auto parts makers.
Delphi (Research) has made no decision to terminate its pension plans, said Miller.
He said unions would have to accept cuts to wages and benefits at Delphi to repay the pension plan shortfall.
"This will put the unions in the difficult position of perhaps having to make trade-offs between maximizing the pay and benefits for active workers versus maximizing the chances for saving the pension plans," Miller told the Financial Times.
With those wages, Miller said Delphi also could generate enough capital to help shore up a pension plan underfunded by about $5 billion.
The average union worker's wage-and-benefit package at Delphi is about $65 an hour, according to Delphi. Last week, just days before Delphi filed, the UAW rejected demands to cut workers' pay package to between $16 and $18 an hour.
Delphi (Research) has made no decision to terminate its pension plans, said Miller.
He said unions would have to accept cuts to wages and benefits at Delphi to repay the pension plan shortfall.
"This will put the unions in the difficult position of perhaps having to make trade-offs between maximizing the pay and benefits for active workers versus maximizing the chances for saving the pension plans," Miller told the Financial Times.
With those wages, Miller said Delphi also could generate enough capital to help shore up a pension plan underfunded by about $5 billion.
The average union worker's wage-and-benefit package at Delphi is about $65 an hour, according to Delphi. Last week, just days before Delphi filed, the UAW rejected demands to cut workers' pay package to between $16 and $18 an hour.
10-11-2005, 12:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Camaroholic
From CNN.com, today
Wow, to go from $65/hr wages + benefits (which is probably ~$35/hr take home pay before taxes) to $20/hr ($12/take home), man... I could see how the union would have problems with that. Obviously something needs to be done in order to keep the company from being broken apart.
Wow, to go from $65/hr wages + benefits (which is probably ~$35/hr take home pay before taxes) to $20/hr ($12/take home), man... I could see how the union would have problems with that. Obviously something needs to be done in order to keep the company from being broken apart.
the 65$/hour INCLUDES all the benefits, and the benefits include a lot of dumb things that most uaw members don't want or need.... i don't know where they are coming up with the average delphi line workers making 30+ dollars per hour, because the average is actually 26.35/hr......i know that's still a lot, but four dollars per hour in the name of getting the facts straight is still a pretty big discrepency....
gm tried to sping off delphi as a smaller company, but bestowed them with a big company contract and big company problems to deal with
most of you would be suprised at how much you cost to your employer on top of your per hour wage
10-11-2005, 03:11 PM
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Here is a question I would like answered. In 1999 when GM spun Delphi off, I had 20+ years in for GM. Now GM placed $x amount of dollars into Delphi's pension fund for my 20+yrs of service and did the same for all the other Delphi emps. In 1999 when this pension fund was created there was millions of dollars in this fund and Delphi had 0 retirees, which means no money being removed from this fund. Now Delphi was to continue to fund this account to keep up with future retirees. Since 1999 Delphi has had around 12,000 emps. retire. So even if Delphi didn't place one dollar into this fund, where is the millions GM placed into the fund?
Next question= Why is the north americian operations the only ones they are filing bankruptcy on. They say it's due to the non north americian operations not losing as much or they are not having the money issues we are having and they don't want to include those operations. Well when they were keeping/spending my profit sharing money and saying that it was due to operations bought and built to help GM/Delphi grow, they sure included them then. What I mean by this is the way I look at it, you=GM/Delphi use my money to buy these non north americian operations, then they damn sure should be mine when I need money.
I like the new deal Delphi is doing, they did the top 21 execs deal and now just proposed a deal where 464 Delphi mgt. emps would get from 30%-250% cash bonuses on top of their regular pay just for staying with the company through the bankruptcy. Now these mgt. emps are aready making between $120,000 and $1.5 million per year for a total of 87.9 million. Rodney Oneal would get $1.15 million a year plus a $2.75 million cash bonus. Correct me where I'm wrong but these are them same bunch that led our company into the position we are in, why pay extra to keep them? As someone asked about the hourly emp making $87k per year, what could these emps. do for Delphi that would equal out to their possible $4 million dollar per year pay?
I would like to see where they come up with this $65 per hour stuff, heck my wife will think I have been keeping 2/3's+ of my pay from here be cause I don't make 1/3 of that per hour.
Next question= Why is the north americian operations the only ones they are filing bankruptcy on. They say it's due to the non north americian operations not losing as much or they are not having the money issues we are having and they don't want to include those operations. Well when they were keeping/spending my profit sharing money and saying that it was due to operations bought and built to help GM/Delphi grow, they sure included them then. What I mean by this is the way I look at it, you=GM/Delphi use my money to buy these non north americian operations, then they damn sure should be mine when I need money.
I like the new deal Delphi is doing, they did the top 21 execs deal and now just proposed a deal where 464 Delphi mgt. emps would get from 30%-250% cash bonuses on top of their regular pay just for staying with the company through the bankruptcy. Now these mgt. emps are aready making between $120,000 and $1.5 million per year for a total of 87.9 million. Rodney Oneal would get $1.15 million a year plus a $2.75 million cash bonus. Correct me where I'm wrong but these are them same bunch that led our company into the position we are in, why pay extra to keep them? As someone asked about the hourly emp making $87k per year, what could these emps. do for Delphi that would equal out to their possible $4 million dollar per year pay?
I would like to see where they come up with this $65 per hour stuff, heck my wife will think I have been keeping 2/3's+ of my pay from here be cause I don't make 1/3 of that per hour.
Last edited by nbm00ws6; 10-11-2005 at 06:38 PM.
10-11-2005, 03:19 PM
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I was just throwing my own wacky calculation in there. The way they worded their statement was VERY "managerial" and Pointy Haired Bossman like - $65/hr as wages + benefits. Benefits are something employees hardly ever see the true cost of (health insurance, retirement / 401k, administration, etc) - but they account for about half of the "cost" of an employee (statistically), so that led me to just WAG (Wild *** Guess) a $35/hr take home (before taxes - after taxes / actual take home of course will be less... I base that on I still see my "take home" pay before taxes, even though I take home less... just my own funky-*** nomenclature based on my own personal point of view). 
10-11-2005, 06:01 PM
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Next question= Why is the north americian operations the only ones they are filing bankruptcy on. They say it's due to the non north americian operations not losing as much or they are not having the money issues we are having and they don't want to include those operations. Well when they were keeping/spending my profit sharing money and saying that it was due to operations bought and built to help GM/Delphi grow, they sure included them then. What I mean by this is the way I look at it, you=GM/Delphi use my money to buy these non north americian operations, then they damn sure should be mine when I need money.
and don't think it's only the uaw members(that obviously not many of you sympathize with) that are getting shafted: how about all those companies that delphi owes BILLIONS to? what about all the shareholders that trusted the brass to make wise financial moves? how many individual lives is that going to effect? especially if they did use that money to ascertain more non-north american facilities, that's money that should be used to pay of all it's debts, but instead everyone gets screwed in bankruptcy......oh, except all the white collar morons who drove the company into the muck in the first place, they get a raise......