Possible Firebird Return?
01-10-2006 | 07:56 AM
#21
6600 rpm clutch dump of death Administrator
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 4,983
Likes: 7
From: Texas
Guys, you need to understand GM needs to cut down on diluting its market. Its no longer profitable to have 2 nearly identical cars witha slight name change, and a few body mods. Just expect GM as part of its cost savings to reduce the number of name plates it has, and to reduce the number of platforms.
I know folks will be disappointed, but don't expect to see a Firebird anytime soon at all. In fact I'd bet you probably won't see it at all (but that is purely speculation).
I know folks will be disappointed, but don't expect to see a Firebird anytime soon at all. In fact I'd bet you probably won't see it at all (but that is purely speculation).
01-10-2006 | 08:06 AM
#22
Here's what Mr. Settlemire had to say about it.
FIRST POST:Fbodfather
well...I guess I should chime in here.
First.....I would say that "never" is a longgggggggggg time.....so I don't want to say never.
Second....I understand your being upset. That's actually, in some ways, a good thing....it shows your passion for the Firebird...and while it may sound trite, we're glad that people feel so strongly toward one (or more) of our brands.......
Interesting tidbit.......the Colorado was a 'chevy only' product.....but the Canyon was executed in record time when it was decided that GMC needed an entry as well.........
Now.......I don't think there's a person within GM that would be happier than I if the decision was made to bring the Firebird back.......AS LONG AS THE ENTRY DESERVED THE FIREBIRD NAME!!!!......(and that's important!!! It must be V8/RWD/and all the other things that make a Firebird a Firebird!!!!)
That said, I also know what shape Ford and GM are in these days. Every dollar counts......and we have to wisely allocate the available dollars and personnel to make each dollar and person count ...'the best bang for the buck, so to speak'.........and I'm not convinced (and I know you don't want to hear this.....) that the wisest choice RIGHT NOW...is to do two "Fcars"......because like it or not, they do compete with each other. Yes, there are some Firebird owners that will never buy a Camaro and vice versa....but the numbers are not in the 80% range.
As to the popularity of Impala in the 90s.....that's one of the most misunderstood issues -- in my opinion-- of the past ten years.
Care to guess how many Impala SSs were built in the 94-96 model years?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.less than 67,000 units for the three model years combined. Yup...they flew off the shelves in 1994 and early 1995....but by the end of the 1995 model year, they were in dealer inventory.....sales slowed......and we had to throw rebates into the formula to move 'em out so we could build more..........
Now........we sold over 200,000 Impalas last year......the OLD body style......5 years into a lifecycle. I make this point for a reason:
>Everything GM and Ford does.....EVERYTHING.....MUST be with the stockholder in mind. Like it or not, we're in the business to make money...the stockholder and Wall Street demand it! If we were making billions of dollars, I'd be screaming from the top of all 7 towers in the RenCen......that we need a Firebird and we need it NOW!!!! But a quick look at reality will show that GM is losing Billions........and we need to turn that around NOW or we aren't gonna be here! (yes, I believe we'll be here for a long time.....assuming that the economy doesn't dip into recession and Delphi does not go on strike....)
So........yup.......I understand your passion for the Firebird...probably more than you'll ever know........and yes, I think we need a Firebird.......and yes, I realize that there are a lot of upset Firebird (and Pontiac) enthusiasts out there.........and yes, this has been a long post, and no, you probably still aren't happy with the answer......but I DO believe I owe you an explanation.
Please...do not assume you will never see another Firebird......
Oh yeah.....as to the Silverado/Sierra and Solstice/Sky .......let me address those next........(in another post)
OTHER POST:
There, in my opinion, will continue to be both a Silverado and A Sierra pickup truck for well into the future.......for several reasons......some being:
>Profit......that's where the dough is..........
>Size of market.......we sell more Silverados ALONE....than the entire "Sport coupe" market..........in fact, we sell over TWICE as many Silverados as all cars in the sport coupe market combined......that's a pretty powerful statement.
>Dealer Bodies.........we have francise agreements with our dealers. Can you imagine what would happen to a GMC dealer if we suddenly stopped building Sierras? (no, we couldn't just give 'em Silverados.......francise laws in most states forbid doing that) Further, when the 900 series pickups are introduced, you'll see even more differentiation between Chevy and GMC.
Now.......Solstice and Sky......first, I think you'll see a wider delta in terms of pricing....both are 'halo' cars for their Divisions........(yes, Firebird would be a halo as well....)....and both are very low volume.......in order for the business case to work, I suspect that the Solstice could not survive very long without the added volume from Sky. I'm not a subject expert here.....but knowing what I know about this industry, I think I'm on safe ground making that statement. Do not assume that the Camaro will be the only product in whatever plant is decided upon. There will be other entries in that plant....and the other entries may be surprising to you. (sorry, I can't say more than that at this point in time.....)
So......yes, there are good strong rational decisions for why there is a Silverado and a Sierra........and a Solstice and a Sky.
And....perhaps as the market continues to change, there MAY be a reason to have Camaro and Firebird. But I have yet to see the 2-door market grow. Yes, Mustang sales are up, but the coupe market continues to contract across all market segments. That's simply due to consumer preferences. You can advertise til the cows come home, but you cannot force a market.
Anyway......I've been long winded here.......and again, I'm sorry I can't give you (or anyone) the answers they want to hear.......but I'm just trying to shed some light on the issues raised.
Keep the faith! You nor I know what the future may hold!
(and hey, perhaps a Camaro is right for you until the Firebird comes back!)
well...I guess I should chime in here.
First.....I would say that "never" is a longgggggggggg time.....so I don't want to say never.
Second....I understand your being upset. That's actually, in some ways, a good thing....it shows your passion for the Firebird...and while it may sound trite, we're glad that people feel so strongly toward one (or more) of our brands.......
Interesting tidbit.......the Colorado was a 'chevy only' product.....but the Canyon was executed in record time when it was decided that GMC needed an entry as well.........
Now.......I don't think there's a person within GM that would be happier than I if the decision was made to bring the Firebird back.......AS LONG AS THE ENTRY DESERVED THE FIREBIRD NAME!!!!......(and that's important!!! It must be V8/RWD/and all the other things that make a Firebird a Firebird!!!!)
That said, I also know what shape Ford and GM are in these days. Every dollar counts......and we have to wisely allocate the available dollars and personnel to make each dollar and person count ...'the best bang for the buck, so to speak'.........and I'm not convinced (and I know you don't want to hear this.....) that the wisest choice RIGHT NOW...is to do two "Fcars"......because like it or not, they do compete with each other. Yes, there are some Firebird owners that will never buy a Camaro and vice versa....but the numbers are not in the 80% range.
As to the popularity of Impala in the 90s.....that's one of the most misunderstood issues -- in my opinion-- of the past ten years.
Care to guess how many Impala SSs were built in the 94-96 model years?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.less than 67,000 units for the three model years combined. Yup...they flew off the shelves in 1994 and early 1995....but by the end of the 1995 model year, they were in dealer inventory.....sales slowed......and we had to throw rebates into the formula to move 'em out so we could build more..........
Now........we sold over 200,000 Impalas last year......the OLD body style......5 years into a lifecycle. I make this point for a reason:
>Everything GM and Ford does.....EVERYTHING.....MUST be with the stockholder in mind. Like it or not, we're in the business to make money...the stockholder and Wall Street demand it! If we were making billions of dollars, I'd be screaming from the top of all 7 towers in the RenCen......that we need a Firebird and we need it NOW!!!! But a quick look at reality will show that GM is losing Billions........and we need to turn that around NOW or we aren't gonna be here! (yes, I believe we'll be here for a long time.....assuming that the economy doesn't dip into recession and Delphi does not go on strike....)
So........yup.......I understand your passion for the Firebird...probably more than you'll ever know........and yes, I think we need a Firebird.......and yes, I realize that there are a lot of upset Firebird (and Pontiac) enthusiasts out there.........and yes, this has been a long post, and no, you probably still aren't happy with the answer......but I DO believe I owe you an explanation.
Please...do not assume you will never see another Firebird......
Oh yeah.....as to the Silverado/Sierra and Solstice/Sky .......let me address those next........(in another post)
OTHER POST:
There, in my opinion, will continue to be both a Silverado and A Sierra pickup truck for well into the future.......for several reasons......some being:
>Profit......that's where the dough is..........
>Size of market.......we sell more Silverados ALONE....than the entire "Sport coupe" market..........in fact, we sell over TWICE as many Silverados as all cars in the sport coupe market combined......that's a pretty powerful statement.
>Dealer Bodies.........we have francise agreements with our dealers. Can you imagine what would happen to a GMC dealer if we suddenly stopped building Sierras? (no, we couldn't just give 'em Silverados.......francise laws in most states forbid doing that) Further, when the 900 series pickups are introduced, you'll see even more differentiation between Chevy and GMC.
Now.......Solstice and Sky......first, I think you'll see a wider delta in terms of pricing....both are 'halo' cars for their Divisions........(yes, Firebird would be a halo as well....)....and both are very low volume.......in order for the business case to work, I suspect that the Solstice could not survive very long without the added volume from Sky. I'm not a subject expert here.....but knowing what I know about this industry, I think I'm on safe ground making that statement. Do not assume that the Camaro will be the only product in whatever plant is decided upon. There will be other entries in that plant....and the other entries may be surprising to you. (sorry, I can't say more than that at this point in time.....)
So......yes, there are good strong rational decisions for why there is a Silverado and a Sierra........and a Solstice and a Sky.
And....perhaps as the market continues to change, there MAY be a reason to have Camaro and Firebird. But I have yet to see the 2-door market grow. Yes, Mustang sales are up, but the coupe market continues to contract across all market segments. That's simply due to consumer preferences. You can advertise til the cows come home, but you cannot force a market.
Anyway......I've been long winded here.......and again, I'm sorry I can't give you (or anyone) the answers they want to hear.......but I'm just trying to shed some light on the issues raised.
Keep the faith! You nor I know what the future may hold!
(and hey, perhaps a Camaro is right for you until the Firebird comes back!)
01-10-2006 | 11:02 AM
#24
I've yet to understand fully why there are so many people that love the firebird, but wouldn't drive a camaro or vice versa. They are the same car with a different body and interior (although similar enough that if you liked the proportions and shape of one, the other shouldn't bother you). I like f-bodies because of what they are. 2-door, RWD, V8 powered, affordable, GM built cars that perform really well for the money. I'm not particularly interested in what the wrapper looks like. I don't think I could truly like any car if it looked good but didn't have the bones to back it up. Both cars have the bones.
Right now we have no f-body at all. If we have a chance to have one, why do I hear so many people complaining that its only the camaro. If your only condition for owning a RWD, V8 powered GM coupe is that it was a Pontiac or that it was called firebird, then to me you've missed to point of having one of these cars altogether. Not to mention that with both the 4th gen firebird and camaro, sales volume wasn't enough to justify keeping the car... if "firebird" owners reject the 5th gen camaro because its not a firebird... there won't be enough volume to justify a any muscle cars of this type from GM at all.
But hey, I've owned multiple models of both and currently still have one of both. If I had to pick which one I like more I couldn't easily do it. But if I could only keep one, I'd be keeping the one I enjoyed driving more... and that has nothing to do with what it looks like or the emblem on the nose. If there was only a camaro, or only a firebird available, I'd buy either without hesitation. I'd just like to have an "f-car" from GM again.
Right now we have no f-body at all. If we have a chance to have one, why do I hear so many people complaining that its only the camaro. If your only condition for owning a RWD, V8 powered GM coupe is that it was a Pontiac or that it was called firebird, then to me you've missed to point of having one of these cars altogether. Not to mention that with both the 4th gen firebird and camaro, sales volume wasn't enough to justify keeping the car... if "firebird" owners reject the 5th gen camaro because its not a firebird... there won't be enough volume to justify a any muscle cars of this type from GM at all.
But hey, I've owned multiple models of both and currently still have one of both. If I had to pick which one I like more I couldn't easily do it. But if I could only keep one, I'd be keeping the one I enjoyed driving more... and that has nothing to do with what it looks like or the emblem on the nose. If there was only a camaro, or only a firebird available, I'd buy either without hesitation. I'd just like to have an "f-car" from GM again.
01-10-2006 | 05:55 PM
#28
Well I wouldnt mind having a camaro. But just like some people are all ford or nothing, or only chevy guys. I am a firebird/formula/transam guy. My 1st car was an 87 bird. When I was old enough to afford one I picked up a 98, then finally last year a collectors edition. I still have the 87, and the CE isnt going anywhere ever.
What I am saying is...I WANT SOMETHING TOO! Sorry the gto doesnt do it for me. I will not buy a chevy just to buy one. I had not test driven a vehicle in years before I bought my CE. I hope the next GTO has some meanlookingness to it period. I absolutely love how the camaro looks ready for war.
Mustang guys, Camaro guys, be happy, you have another version of "your" car to buy. I do not.
What would I do with all my pontiac and trans-am t-shirts if I bought a Camaro?!! I have no room for camaro toys,hats and tshirts!Some of us dont want to be ragged on about owning a camaro when we bleed firebird!
What I am saying is...I WANT SOMETHING TOO! Sorry the gto doesnt do it for me. I will not buy a chevy just to buy one. I had not test driven a vehicle in years before I bought my CE. I hope the next GTO has some meanlookingness to it period. I absolutely love how the camaro looks ready for war.
Mustang guys, Camaro guys, be happy, you have another version of "your" car to buy. I do not.
What would I do with all my pontiac and trans-am t-shirts if I bought a Camaro?!! I have no room for camaro toys,hats and tshirts!Some of us dont want to be ragged on about owning a camaro when we bleed firebird!
01-10-2006 | 08:16 PM
#30
Teching In
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22
Likes: 0
From: In Front Of You!!!
The way I see it,IMHO, is the Camaro is comming back, and if there is a chance for the FIrebird it will be thru the Camaro. It happened in 67 and I feel like it will happen agian. I truly hoped it would happen in 67 for both( 40th Aniv., tha twould be cool), but I dont see it happening. I think GM is listening now, regaurdless of the past they are now, so we need to just wait and be patient. I am really praying that the Bird comes back. ANd for the record I have had both but, IMHO, "NOTHING" and I do mean "NOTHING" says I intimidation like a Trans Am in your rear view mirror, looking at you like your its next meal. So I will wait and pray ALOT!!!
01-12-2006 | 08:31 AM
#32
Originally Posted by ws6gluemaker
Now I'm left wandering about what else will be built beside the new Camaro.
01-12-2006 | 12:40 PM
#34
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
Originally Posted by zombie1
No birdie for you!No one likes them anyway! 
j/k my tooth aches,thus I'm in a bad mood.
j/k my tooth aches,thus I'm in a bad mood.
....lots of painkillers and 48 hours of impared judgement....not to mention no driving for a few days -____- I gotcha...
01-12-2006 | 01:34 PM
#35
TECH Addict
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,335
Likes: 0
From: Michigan
Concept Camaro To some the appearance matters. For me it was the first thing that made me fall in love with the Firebird all over again. Meaning:
I loved the 1st Gen Firebird and when I had my 70' Grand Prix I dreamed of putting the 455 from that into a 1st gen Firebird. The 2nd and 3rd gen Firebirds were nice looking but did not stir emotions like the 4th gen (specifically 98+).
I recall in 1997 at the Airport sending my daughter to family in New York. The lobby area had a new model 98' Firebird painted white. The lines of the car caught my eye. I vowed to get one as soon as I could.
In 1999 after being married and having the transmission going in my 1996 Taurus (POS Trans from Ford) I decided that it was best to trade the Taurus in on a car I had been dreaming of. I really wanted the 98+ Formula but the price was too high. I was looking at 97' LT1 Birds but they all seemed ragged on pretty bad and my wife was adhement that I get something new or close to new.
I found a 99' Firebird with all the options and performance package but it was with the V6 3800 and I wanted the V8 power. My wife loved it though and it had all the lines of the 98' I saw at the airport a couple of years before. I ended out driving that 99' Firebird (Red) from October 00 until March 04 and it was a great all around and all weather car.
In November 2002 I bought my 01 Trans Am WS6 with 17,000 miles (for $7,000 under KBB) and it too is red. I kept both cars for 2 years and drove everywhere with them and wife and kids (2 kids).
The Firebird from 1998 to 2002 brought me back into the market of these cars. The last I had was a 79 Formula and it did not affect me emotionally as much as this model of Firebird and neither does the 1st Gen.
My POINT is, if there is a point, is that the appearance does matter to some and if it does not matter to you then you probably will not understand. But even saying all that I have to add that the Concept Camaro at the Autoshow is Spectactular. I already have plans to buy one as soon as GM 'ponies up' and starts producing them to us. I guarantee that when the Camaro hits the market I will have one sitting in my 2.5 car garage next to my 2001 Trans Am.
Scott (FBod father) gave us allot to think about and it definitely made me understand some things better. Even though I want the Firebird back I am very happy that the Camaro looks like it does. I am already planning on it's spot in the garage. GM did a great job with the concept. The lines are aggressive and sexy. The powerplant is what I expected. Having IRS will be cool since I want to take it on the Road Track (Gingerman) and this time I will get the stick since I have my winter beater and Trans Am for daily driving. Besides, who knows, a year or two after the sales of the new Camaro show record numbers GM will probably bring back the Firebird as well.
I loved the 1st Gen Firebird and when I had my 70' Grand Prix I dreamed of putting the 455 from that into a 1st gen Firebird. The 2nd and 3rd gen Firebirds were nice looking but did not stir emotions like the 4th gen (specifically 98+).
I recall in 1997 at the Airport sending my daughter to family in New York. The lobby area had a new model 98' Firebird painted white. The lines of the car caught my eye. I vowed to get one as soon as I could.
In 1999 after being married and having the transmission going in my 1996 Taurus (POS Trans from Ford) I decided that it was best to trade the Taurus in on a car I had been dreaming of. I really wanted the 98+ Formula but the price was too high. I was looking at 97' LT1 Birds but they all seemed ragged on pretty bad and my wife was adhement that I get something new or close to new.
I found a 99' Firebird with all the options and performance package but it was with the V6 3800 and I wanted the V8 power. My wife loved it though and it had all the lines of the 98' I saw at the airport a couple of years before. I ended out driving that 99' Firebird (Red) from October 00 until March 04 and it was a great all around and all weather car.
In November 2002 I bought my 01 Trans Am WS6 with 17,000 miles (for $7,000 under KBB) and it too is red. I kept both cars for 2 years and drove everywhere with them and wife and kids (2 kids).
The Firebird from 1998 to 2002 brought me back into the market of these cars. The last I had was a 79 Formula and it did not affect me emotionally as much as this model of Firebird and neither does the 1st Gen.
My POINT is, if there is a point, is that the appearance does matter to some and if it does not matter to you then you probably will not understand. But even saying all that I have to add that the Concept Camaro at the Autoshow is Spectactular. I already have plans to buy one as soon as GM 'ponies up' and starts producing them to us. I guarantee that when the Camaro hits the market I will have one sitting in my 2.5 car garage next to my 2001 Trans Am.
Scott (FBod father) gave us allot to think about and it definitely made me understand some things better. Even though I want the Firebird back I am very happy that the Camaro looks like it does. I am already planning on it's spot in the garage. GM did a great job with the concept. The lines are aggressive and sexy. The powerplant is what I expected. Having IRS will be cool since I want to take it on the Road Track (Gingerman) and this time I will get the stick since I have my winter beater and Trans Am for daily driving. Besides, who knows, a year or two after the sales of the new Camaro show record numbers GM will probably bring back the Firebird as well.
01-12-2006 | 03:10 PM
#36
A 'BIG THANKS' goes out to Fbodfather. For sharing alill insight on the f-body market in the today's market place.
Now, having been the owner of one the '98 model TransAm, til '01. I'm now in a '02 Z28 for the simple fact of the demise of the f-body. But, am I disappointed??? He!! no!!! The Camaro Z28, aside from the not having the red inst. cluster and sometime troublesome head cover motor gears, is pretty much the same. So I, for one, will be greatly satisfied just to get the Camaro(first) name plate back into production. Then, who knows in a yr or so if, the market warrants it the TransAm may also re-appear, who knows. Cuz, freakly the GTO just doesn't do it for me.
So, I'm happy for now w/ just get the Camaro nameplate back into production
Then, see where that leads us in the sports coupe market.
Thanks again,
Don :bowtie: (where's that bowtie icon when you need it)
Now, having been the owner of one the '98 model TransAm, til '01. I'm now in a '02 Z28 for the simple fact of the demise of the f-body. But, am I disappointed??? He!! no!!! The Camaro Z28, aside from the not having the red inst. cluster and sometime troublesome head cover motor gears, is pretty much the same. So I, for one, will be greatly satisfied just to get the Camaro(first) name plate back into production. Then, who knows in a yr or so if, the market warrants it the TransAm may also re-appear, who knows. Cuz, freakly the GTO just doesn't do it for me.
So, I'm happy for now w/ just get the Camaro nameplate back into production
Then, see where that leads us in the sports coupe market.Thanks again,
Don :bowtie: (where's that bowtie icon when you need it)
01-12-2006 | 03:12 PM
#37
TECH Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 8,807
Likes: 0
From: Vancouver,[KITSILANO].B.C. Canada *WestCoast*
Originally Posted by chaman
What about a GTO with a WS6 performance package? maybe a GTO Trans Am edition?? Who knows GM works in mysterious ways.....
BITE YOUR TONGUE
01-12-2006 | 03:36 PM
#39
i think its gay that they stopped making the bird....then again the 4th gen is a badass car so at least they went out with a bang..i dont think they could have topped that in terms of style and originality... Basically as far as the gto, especially the charger! and impala! and a few other cars out there i thnk they all turned out pretty 
looking if u ask me., if they come out with a camaro or bird, they're gonna destroy whatever it is a musclecar should be...granted its might come out to be a nice, pretty and smooth looking car...but it will never be as MEAN =)...well if they throw the 
427 in the next camaro ill consider forgiving them but ...i doubt it lol just my .02
looking if u ask me., if they come out with a camaro or bird, they're gonna destroy whatever it is a musclecar should be...granted its might come out to be a nice, pretty and smooth looking car...but it will never be as MEAN =)...well if they throw the 427 in the next camaro ill consider forgiving them but ...i doubt it lol just my .02
01-12-2006 | 03:43 PM
#40
Thread Starter
Staging Lane
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 93
Likes: 0
I think that the mentality everyone has been expressing of "we're happy with the camaro, we would like a new bird but we understand the market issues, and we can patiently wait for the firebird" is GM's dream come true. The car they did release will be incredibly popular, it's stirred up interest in the firebird, but not so much that people are angry and demanding that it come back at a time when it may be a financially poor move, or rush it out of the factory doors with an underdeveloped design that'll flop.
Since I saw Knight Rider as a little kid I wanted a Trans Am. I know that it was cheesey, but I couldnt help but love that supercar. When I was in the market for my first car I had to look for something cheap 7-8K, that meant I was about to get a Stratus when I saw the mint Z28 that *both* my dad and I fell in love with. He had a GT500 back in the day, black with silver stripes, and so when he saw it, he couldnt say no to the $12.5K beauty. I love my Camaro but I still want a Trans Am one day. The point of this story is the same as the main idea we've come to. Yes, we'd like a Firebird, but that doesnt mean we cant love what we've got and wait patiently for our bird!
Since I saw Knight Rider as a little kid I wanted a Trans Am. I know that it was cheesey, but I couldnt help but love that supercar. When I was in the market for my first car I had to look for something cheap 7-8K, that meant I was about to get a Stratus when I saw the mint Z28 that *both* my dad and I fell in love with. He had a GT500 back in the day, black with silver stripes, and so when he saw it, he couldnt say no to the $12.5K beauty. I love my Camaro but I still want a Trans Am one day. The point of this story is the same as the main idea we've come to. Yes, we'd like a Firebird, but that doesnt mean we cant love what we've got and wait patiently for our bird!