2000Hawk

iTrader: (5)

Of course they would, imagine if Nissan engineers realized that their extremely advanced GTR couldn't beat a N/A Corvette with an OHV engine and leaf springs. Those guys would have taken a sh*t, and probably offed themselves. The Z06 is more comparable with the GTR, the GTR shouldn't even be mentioned in comparison with the ZR1. So lets just leave it at that...
-Joel

Morbid

iTrader: (34)

I don't understand this part...

How can they say that when there are production ZR1's already in dealerships?

LS1LT1

iTrader: (16)

I agree.

distortion_69

iTrader: (20)

"And technology is what is responsible for our understanding of physics and more importantly what defines what the "laws" of physics are and how to push them. Not the other way around. "Laws" are in fact approximations, rules that work when describing motion on the macroscopic scale but which break at the quantum scale. And if you think auto engineers aren't working on the quantum scale to continually outdo and outperform each other then you'd be sorely mistaken."


Lol. Damn, Nissan has a really advanced engineering team if they are releasing an atomic sized car in order to improve the times. I think it can be said that this whole sentence is ludicrous... To save time I'll just quote wikipedia for you on what you are claiming. To be engineering on the quantum level it'd be at the molecular level (the whole idea behind quantum physics/mechanics, which we still really don't understand, may I add).

If an apple was magnified to the size of the Earth, then the atoms in the apple would be approximately the size of the original apple. A single drop of water contains about 2 sextillion (2×1021) atoms of oxygen, and twice the number of hydrogen atoms.

I highly doubt they are engineering stuff that is 2-4 sextillionths of a drop of water, but I guess it is Nissan.. and they are from Japan, which is the most best car manufacturing country ever, ever, ever since fast and furious came out. So maybe they do modify the internals of the atoms to make their cars run better lap-times. Or maybe they just make macroscopic changes, since they don't have any particle modifying equipment at their engineering lab.

I'm not really arguing that the car isn't capable of running as fast.. simply because the car could maintain a higher rate of speed through the course, slow down quicker, and various other things to try to make up the difference. I do doubt it did any of these things with it's weight, as it'd be slowing down a hell of a lot more mass, and accelerating much slower after it does slow down. However, it's not out of the realm of possibilities or physics at all, just highly unlikely. Besides, for all we know, the claimed hp number could be extremely under-rated, going based on that alone doesn't give much validity to the argument. But the car still follows normal physics because it ISN'T 2 millionths the size of a drop of water or any number of any sizes of extremely small particles that don't follow macroscopic laws of physics (which the car does). There is no magic, there is no voodoo.

Besides, there at some point is at least some difference between how the two cars are running the track, IMO. Hell, 5-10 degrees of temperature or just being muggy outside could make a nice little difference. Then there's driver difference.. There's just too many variables. But until we actually see both cars together battling it out on all stock setup's (which is unlikely), then anything else is pure speculation to backup the car you like best in a war to increase your online ***** size.

That being said, the ZR1 times are still extremely fast even if they were slower than another car's, and I don't foresee anybody sitting and thinking about each millisecond difference in the time of the ring before buying the car, because nobody drives the ring on their way to work or out to have fun on the weekend... Not to mention all other tracks would be completely different even if they were looking to race it.

Later,
Josh

Blakbird24

iTrader: (24)

Holy ****!! Someone with a brain!! Thank you sir.

Blakbird24

iTrader: (24)

This just shows how much racing experience you have. I assure you sir, few seasoned drivers are fooled by Nissan's claims. Especially those who have actually driven the Nurburgring.

I suppose it's something that non-racers will never understand...but i'll try to explain it in more concrete terms. Take a "fast" van and run a "fast" lap time in it. You'll be impressed. Then hop in something like a GT2, Z06...etc and run a REALLY FAST lap time. You'll quickly understand that thanks to the laws of physics, increased hp and grip yield diminishing returns as speed increases. Same laws that we have to thank for the fact that it only takes an extra 20hp to get a 90mph (top speed) car to hit 100mph...and then takes 200hp to get a 200mph car to hit 210mph. Both cars end up only 10mph faster, but require far different power upgrades to do it. These are all loose interpretations of course, but i'm trying to keep this discussion out of the stratosphere.

WSsick

iTrader: (13)

see the benefits of a driver that grew up on th 'Ring? i know everyone wants Jan and a few choices others but Sabine Schmitz rules the 'Ring. shes been round it i think she said like 50,000 or some insane number. (im trying to get back to the original post here, if you didnt notice.) you put her in the ZR1 and i bet she can get a 7:1x out of it.

dailydriver

I'd bet even a 7:0x out of it after a lot of familiarization/practice!!

Spoolin

iTrader: (8)

Nissan??? I specify auto engineers and you pigeon hole Nissan?
Yes auto engineers are in fact using quantum physics to improve today's vehicles.
http://www.azom.com/News.asp?NewsID=4879
http://www.greenenergytv.com/browse/...aspx?958475682
We couldn't do 30 years ago what we can today through EFI technology and that's due to our molecular understanding of fuel.
Also Since 2000 GM has contracted Quantum Technologies to perform optimization studies for efficiently packaging advanced fuel storage systems within the chassis of vehicles.
I'm not saying and never stated that Japanese engineers are using quantum physics to make the GTR go around the track faster. I'm saying stop using the laws of physics as an excuse as to why the GTR's lap times are in debate. That is all.

Doubting the times is one thing but claiming that it's impossible like Blackbird24 is doing is another thing entirely. There was a time when it was believed that no stock car could break 8 minutes around the ring, now they're doing it in under 7:30, and 10 years from now they might be doing it in under 7 minutes if the CAFE rules doesn't handcuff the auto industry. I'm thoroughly impressed by the GTR regardless of the times it posts as well as the ZR1 regardless of the times it posts. But calling one company a bunch of liars simply because some people doubt the times is rubbish.

And regardless of what Nissan claims it's power numbers to be GM has been doing that for years, most recently with it's truck engines, the LS1 engines, as well as the Syclone/Typhoon engines from the early 90's, and I'm sure I'm missing half a dozen other vehicles in between. Nobody makes a big stink about it when GM does it but when Nissan does it lets burn them at the stake and call them liars and so on??

Agree 100%. Both cars ran with different drivers and days and weather and what have you, and they are both great cars. I would rather have a ZR1 myself, actually scratch that I'd rather have a Z06 than a ZR1. But all three cars are impressive and competitive.

BLOODTA

iTrader: (19)

Wow! I wanna see the 8,800 lb van with 136 hp run the ring in 10 seconds while in traffic. Talk about Quantum Physics.

hpjunky98

iTrader: (3)

IBTL

Blakbird24

iTrader: (24)

Ahh but you are forgetting the whole of my argument. I didn't say it's impossible. I said right now, the GT-R, weighing 3800lbs and putting out even 550hp, cannot run a 7:29 on the full Nordschleife. Now that we know all the little tricks they pulled, yes it's very possible. I'm not saying that it didn't happen, i'm saying that it's not possible running the full circuit with street tires and stock boost on that car.

Now here's a place where we do agree. I have no problem with underrating a motor, no matter who it is that does it. However, knowing Nissan's history, I don't believe that they really did underrate the GT-R. Given the testing and comments of reviewers and drivers thus far, I think it's much more likely that the car that was dynoed is simply a ringer. The same one that ran the ring in 7:38...with increased boost levels. I know of several reviewers who state exactly that in their reviews.

WSsick

iTrader: (13)

that would be untouchable for a production car.

haha he meant 10 minutes (and 8 seconds to be exact). its on youtube. i posted a link somewhere in here if you wanna see that. girl has mad skills. came 3rd this year in the 24 or Nurburgring.


on a side note:
ANYONE KNOW THE FASTEST LAP EVER of the Ring? [production or not, like those super gt1 or whatever they are?]

Spoolin

iTrader: (8)

For peet's sake WHY...?? If you present something to indicate that it physically cannot run those times in stock trim I'm more than willing to listen. However you don't and can't provide any proof that a stock GTR cannot run those times. What your leaning on is the belief that it can't because of vague remarks from the Nissan engineers that it was near production trim. And from that you deduce that they cranked up the boost to unknown levels and yada yada yada. Fact is none of us know what near production means for the nissan or what GM was saying when they indicate they were "doing our final tuning and testing there(the Ring) before we start ZR1 production cars".
If I was a GTR fanboy or whatever you've insulted me with in the past I'd jump all over this and claim it wasn't stock, but GM said it was stock, as did Nissan. And I believe them both.


I'm gonna take the Nissan completely out of the equation since it seems like your really just anti-GTR. You say there is no amount of technology that can overcome physics so I want to point out two other cars that have lapped the ring and please tell me why one's faster than the other. (by a substantial margin at that)
-The ZR1 ran the ring in 7:26.4 with a power to weight ratio of 638 HP/1519 kg
-The Koenigsegg CCR ran the lap in 7:34 with a power to weight ratio of 817 PS/1180 kg

Now if I was a staunch supporter of the CCR like you are the ZR1 or GM for that matter I would call complete BS on the ZR1 because it weighs 747 lbs MORE than the CCR and has 179 hp LESS than the CCR. Now that is a BIG BIG difference no matter how you look at it. And it is way more significant than the difference between the GTR and ZR1.
I'm seeing technology as the difference and if your going solely on physics either the ZR1 is full of crap or the CCR should be running 7 flat at the ring.

Spoolin

iTrader: (8)

This is a unofficial link to the fastest production cars around the ring...
Let me see if I can find something about the the fastest lap ever by anycar, I think it was done by a Porsche or something.

Spoolin

iTrader: (8)

Oops sorry, I forgot to post the link!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordsch...test_lap_times

Spoolin

iTrader: (8)

This is what I found, might of been broken since because it was set in 1983 I think!

"the late Stefan Bellof set the all-time lap record for the 20.8 km Nordschleife in his Porsche 956, which is still unbeaten at 6:11.13, or over 200 km/h in average"

I'm gonna try and find more info on that car, that is a badass time!!

Edit: Porsche 956 = 800 kg (1764 lb) weight. The engine is the same as the one used in the Porsche 936, the Type-935 2.65 L turbocharged Flat-6, producing approximately 635 hp.

2000Hawk

iTrader: (5)

Exactly its not only the fact at how fast that Porsche did it, its the fact that it pulled it off in 1983. And nobody has touched it yet.
-Joel

WSsick

iTrader: (13)

thank you Spoolin! i was like what link??? lol then i got it

and i like the CCR reference.

dailydriver

Basically it was THE IMSA GT/Le Mans/Euro endurance prototype racer of it's time, as well as one of the most winning race car models (along with it's older brother/evolution car, the 962) of ALL time.