Shinkaze

Well I'm sure you've all seen by now, BMW has raised the bar to a 500 hp V10. Still a lot more money than the CTS-V, ....this new M5 is going to be a beast though.


More pictures here.

Now, if GM were to answer with the reported LS7.....

Nine Ball

iTrader: (38)

How much will that new M5 cost? $90K?

ouch.

Shinkaze

I think they're trying to keep it competitive with the E55, and in the same price range as the current E39 M5... so figure less than $80K?

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

$50K vs $85K.

TTopJohn

That about sums it up - I would HOPE that BMW would give you something more than a roundel and an idrive for your extra $30,000

500hp at the flywheel. Hmm, sounds like a head and cam package is all you would need (maybe a 382 rotating assembly) for the CTS-V to match or exceed that. And if the general answers with the new 3 valve 500hp Z06 engine (which they probably will, it doesn't make financial sense to keep building the LS6 after the Corvette quits using it), that could even it up right there.

steve_c

As much as I like the CTS-V, I'd still take a V10, 7-speed SMG, M5 over a CTS-V anyday...

You're talking about $80k of F1 technology in there... it might be a killer on the track...

Also if your remember, they tested the M3 CSL and it was faster then a 911 on the track...

BMW M cars are more about straight line acceleration boys...

BIGBOS

I'll take a CTS-V and put a 427 in it, and then see what 500HP M5's want to play, I don't care if they have been to Dinan and back either.....

HydroDesign

I'd take the BMW just for that 7speed SMG, thats gotta be unbelievable.

Shinkaze

Well I've spent a fair amount of time in the driver's seat of a E39 M5 (last generation 400hp), and at equal price I would take it over a CTS-V, the E60 5 series has grown on me a bit, I'm still waiting to see what they do with the interior, heck the old M5 had a faux-Suede headliner and a leather covered dash...really nice. I really do not like the look of the CTS, the "V" looks a 100 times better though, but I greatly dislike the interior. Honestly I think I'm more tempted by a possible updated GTO, though in it's current form I think the CTS-V is a better value. Someone mentioned allready all the extras you get for a ~$15K upcharge. Looks worth it to me...

...anyhow back on subject, I would take a CTS-V over a Jag S-Type R, but not over an E55 or E60 M5. At that point you have to sell me on price alone, which I think Caddy has done a fair job with. Now compared to the Audi S4 and BMW M3, I still think I preffer those two cars over the CTS-V as well. The S4 is slower and less "dramatic" on the exterior, but I love the interior, very nice, great stick-shift. The M3 is great too, but there again it's been out long enough the temptation is to save a few bucks and pick one up used.

TTopJohn

I'm of a different opinion on that one - based on real world transaction prices, I'd take a Jag S-Type R over a CTS-V. Drove them both with the past 2 weeks .
A used 2003 S-Type R with 4000 to 10000 miles goes for $45K.
And while the CTS-V does have better suspension tuning, more power, and a manual tranny, the looks of the S-Type R, inside and out, just make me weak in the knees. And the seamless rush of supercharged torque through the 6 speed auto - it glues your head to the headrest in such a fluid manner, it's intoxicating.

I know I'm comparing used to new and that's not rational, but there aren't any used CTS-Vs out there yet, and I'm picking the Jag based on looks which is also not rational. But damn it looks good



On the S4 - it's too small for me. CTS-V is a bigger car for the money, which I prefer.


M3? everyone has a 3 series. I want something more special/unconventional than that. My Camaro is more special/unconventional than a 3 series, because the Z28 stands out in the Law School parking lot, while 3s are a dime a dozen.

Keith

SMG gearboxees are overrated.
I got one on my KTM

LEO

iTrader: (3)

Them BMW M cars sure are purtty, BTW the CTS-V out handles the current M5!?! Whoa! Bet you didn't know that. That's right it kicked the M5's *** all around the Nurburing track. Good Lord, how did that American car beat the German Powerhaus in the Motherland? Kinda reminds me of the famous footage of Jesse Owens beating the superior German master race athletes at the Olympics.

TriShield

No question, the new M5 will smoke a CTS-V very badly. Like C&D said, it's very unlikely that anyone will directly cross shop both of them, the prices (and now the capability) are oceans apart.

No hate for the CTS-V though, it's very thrilling that GM has brought it to market, and I hope they continue with more V flavors of other Cadillac models, like the XLR.

cvp33

Funny, that's what I paid for the CTS-V new. You gotta love GMS.

As far as M5, E55's and the like. Foreign built cars have never had much allure for me. I was born and raised in Michigan and these cars were far and few between. The ones we did see got "keyed". American Autoworkers really don't like those cars.

Shinkaze

That's a great price for a 2003! Man those things depreciated fast! but then again you can find 2001 Jag XKRs in that price range too and they were $90K new... I guess Jags take a huge beating the first few year then level out. I'm getting a new car this fall and my #1 choice right now is a 2001 M5 with low miles. I've seen those in the $40k-$45k range as well, 2000 models are under $40K now, but they don't have the widescreen nav and angel eyes which I want. 2003's are still in the high $50Ks low $60Ks.Haven't driven one yet, but a friend of mine seriously considered one. He said that the Automatic really was holding that motor back with slow shifts, and felt a more aggresive tranny would make it much closer to a M5 in straight line acceleration. Great looking car, and I agree I think it looks better than a CTS-V as well... of course that's just a matter of opinion, I would be much more enthusiastic about the CTS if it had a better styled interior.
Nothing wrong with that. Back in the 80's I chose Firebirds over Mustangs based on looks too and am happier for it. Got to love more than the zstats to keep you happy with a car!

The last generation S4 was without a doubt too small for me, the new one (while still a little smaller than the CTS) has great interior room (for me) and it looks like it splits the difference in terms of performance between an M3 and CTS-V. I like it I just think it needs to be about $5K cheaper than the M3 which it isn't.

I can appreciate that, especially in Atlanta I see more M3s than Camaros. Conversly I still love the car, the handling, acceleration, etc. The M3 most closely fits my needs now, but I know that the others fit my needsbetter in the immediate future (I'm engaged and getting married this Fall).

Another new one to consider for the Fall is the Mercedes C55 AMG. They are replacing the 3.2 Liter Supercharged motor with a 367hp 5.5 Liter AMG V8 (Naturally Aspirated). Also they have redone the styling both inside and out making it look much more aggresive. Should come in at $50K-$55K accodring to Mercedes.




I had also considered a CLK500, it pulls 13.8 in the Qtr mile, but decided against it as with any reasonable options pops up to $60K. The C55 should be well optioned at $55K or so. That's the high end of my range, and probably would preffer not to spend that much... for me that's a lot of cash to tie up in something with a plumeting value.

Shinkaze

Lord knows I'm not cross shopping them! I guess if I was considering leasing I might be more serious about a new M5, but for me it's a choice between used E39 M5 vs new CTS-V on GM employee discount. They come out about the same, and I would much rather have another M5 in my garage again even if the new CTS-V is a little faster it still lacks the interior look IMOHO. The E39 interior is a little dated but I still preffer it with the Faux-Suede headliner, leather covered dash, and two tone seats. Not to mention if I buy it used I don't have to pay sales tax and the car has allready had it's monster depreciation, while the CTS would be new and I'd likely take a bigger hit on it. Hard not to pass judgement, so I'll reserve final decisions to this Fall when I drive all of them. Right now my test drive list is looking like this...

New CTS-V
New S4
New/Used M3
Used M5
New BMW 545
New CLK500
New C55 AMG
Used C32 AMG
Used Jag S-Type R
Used Jag XKR
New GTO and a Touregg (sp?) for the Woman
New G35 and a Touareg (sp?) for the Woman
New STi/EVO and a T-reg for the Woman

Lot of cars huh?

-Adam

FinalTA

iTrader: (1)

Nice list for sure! But IMO, the Touregg = and

Shinkaze

It's either that or get my wife to be a Lexus RX330. After driving everything else in that price range the only thing more sporty is the FX45, which she hates. The Touregg actually feels rather good behind the wheel, and you can tell Porsche had a heavy hand in componet sharing.

-Adam

TTopJohn

Adam, nice list! Looks similar to mine.

The Touraeg, with a V8 stickering in the low 40s, is the best buy in the "I want an SUV that is entertaining to drive cause it has a bunch of power, and is more luxurious on the inside than a Grand Cherokee" niche. The Cadillac SRX is better in my book, but with all the cool options it can ring out at 58K MSRP. X5 is nice, but tiny cargo area and harsh ride. So I would go with the Touraeg.

Jag pricing: http://www.texascarsdirect.com They are local to me, but even if they are not, it's worth the fight to Dallas to get these prices. Claim to be the largest used Jaguar seller in the nation, and most all of their cars are in tip-top shape when I have been out there.

The 6 speed auto in the S-Type R definitely errs on the side of comfort, and if it had the equivalent of a shift kit installed, it would be a lot closer to the M5. But then it would lose the Jaguar smoothness and fluidity. The comfort tuning of the tranny seems to suit the car. It's hard to describe, but here's my best illustration: My girlfriend doesn't like full throttle accelleration in the MN6 Z28. But she loved it in the Automatic S-Type R. They are just about as fast as each other, so it's not the rate of accelleration. It's the direct mechanical connection of the 6 speed manual, and the resulting jerk with each shift, v. the hydraulic smoothness provided by the S-Type's automatic.
A sportier automatic that snapped off tire chirping shifts would get rid of that smoothness, which suits the Jag's targeted audience so well.

steve_c

It kicked the M5's *** on the Nurburgring track? Please show me a link to this info.... If you're referring the the C&D comparo, that was done at Putnam Park, not Nurburgring.

I'm not disputing that the CTS-V is a good contender for the M5, it actually is a great buy for the price, unfortunately it's no where near the technology and finesse of the german rival, not the M5 or not even the M3 (which is in the same price range).

BMW cars (every single one of them) handle well, they are designed to be poised, balanced and are always on the cutting edge of automotive technology.

The new M5 will have technology from F1, yes F1... this is not nascar here partner (where you go in circles)...