Ryne @ CMS

iTrader: (10)

i have seen your post on the cadillac forums as well, you stated that there was no detonation present at the time of teardown after this dyno session..... so that being stated likely tuning wasnt the cause of your failure.... maybe the cause of your failure is the fact you are running a 2.9 whipple that is pullied down (20psi and you cant turn the boost down like a turbo), and STOCK HEAD BOLTS!!... maybe the tuner can edit the head bolt tension table and max it out ... it was your faulty combination that failed, stop with the blame game, man up and fix your **** right and start over...

ZeeTwentyFate

iTrader: (19)

^ wish LS1 had a like button... lol... but honestly on C16 20 PSI can be had on a stock long block with studs. ive seen it done and last for 3 years. not all will last but this one did. good timing, good parts, good longblock and a good tune they will last until one thing goes wrong then its game over

CADZLA

I wish I took a video of that run. The head gaskets were replaced and ARP studs were installed. He knew that I had stock head bolts. He also knew that I was not comfortable at all with 20psi, but kept doing pull after pull. In fact, he FREAKED out a few months ago when I told him I hit 22psi on a WOT on the street with a smaller pulley that I told him I was going to try. He told me to immediately put larger pulley back on. I don't believe I am responsible for his screw up. I am looking into possible recourse. He was here in IL when this happened, and he is from Virginia.

You are in the small minority my friend. It was the TUNER'S fault to continue pull after pull knowing the boost was 20 and there were stock head bolts. This is why I pay PROFESSIONALS. Well, a supposed professional. I had four different pulleys with me, so we could have changed to larger one in 5 minutes. The same tuner couldn't get me more power with 109 octane! In fact the power went down 13HP. It's about time guys that screw up take blame and be held accountable. Yes there was knock present in the 2 logs he sent me (out of the 5 or 6 pulls). But he also reduced knock sensor sensitivity as well, so I have no idea if knock value is valid.

Zmg00camaross

iTrader: (11)

lol you put a smaller pulley on it now and boosting it harder. Dumb!

CADZLA

The car seems to run fairly well now, except that it idles to low and dies often. Also transmission shifting rather hard and low RPM downshifts. I will find a safer tune hopefully, from a month or so ago and put it in. I am looking for a new tuner obviously.

Learn how to read. There is a larger pulley on it now (around 16 psi), as tuner suggested that we put the larger one on AFTER he lifted the heads.

I was told that compression was good. I am having one done professionally this week just to make sure. I need someone that unbiased to do it.

He knew I wanted a safe tune. I put trust in him unfortunately. I continually asked him if everything was ok (no knock, boost, IAT2s, etc.) he seemed confident that all was good. The only thing he said he was changing was the timing. I didn't like the high temps either (told him we needed to bleed the HX), but he said it was ok and power wasn't being lost because of the 210 IATs.

I'll try and answer the remainder of the questions in one post. My builder is Chad Barton, CBI street cars, suburb of St. Louis. He's a great guy with 14+ years experience with LSx motors. The motor is stock with exception of a cam (springs, trunnion kit, etc) and the whipple, exhaust, HX. The pulleys at the time were 10" lower and 3.5" upper (blower RPM was at or below whipple's 18k RPM warranty threshold).
The car made 600 on a mustang dyno, Again this was with 210 IAT2s (my IATS were never this high, even on 104 degree days), so I was losing power there, obviously. V's with similar builds are making 700-760 on dyno jets.
I have HP Tuners, and have been learning a lot lately.

kl2onik

iTrader: (3)

Best of luck man...I truly hate seeing people in these predicaments...be sure to video the next tuning session. At 20psi im not expecting to see anything less than 700.

Ryne @ CMS

iTrader: (10)

personally i wouldnt have touched your combination... to think you put a whipple on a v and didnt even think about head studs, lets me know your state of mind.. screw what the logs say, you said there was no visible signs of detonation when you tore it down. believe me you would have big signs once torn down, and being that it isnt an actual forged piston in these cars the piston would likely break at that boost level with detonation... maybe he shouldnt have ran it multiple times, but if it isnt knocking then run it... its your choice to tell him to stop if your uncomfortable... the fact of the matter you put together a setup that was not adequate for the whipple supercharger...

GA95DCMSS

iTrader: (13)

In all honesty, it sounds like some misplaced finger pointing is going on in this thread. You put a combination on a stock shortblock that you KNEW would make 20 psi. The stock shortblock has limits, and you sir, found them on the dyno.

The tuner threw it on the dyno, to tune it of course, and it lifted the heads with stock head bolts. That I can say, I honestly wouldn't blame the tuner for it. There is nothing in HPTuners that is going to tell you that you are stretching the stock head bolts beyond their clamping limits. If you drove out of the shop and it lifted the heads a block down the road, would you still blame the tuner? You wanted to push the limits of your combination, and you found it. If you wanted something safe, why didn't you put a smaller pulley on from the jump? I'm sorry, but I feel your blame is sorely misplaced.

CADZLA

My finger is pointing in the right direction. He knew the boost level, he knew the pulley combo (he recommended it), he saw the timing and he saw the high IAT2s. But he wasn't telling me what was going on after each pull. He doesn't like to be questioned while on the dyno, he said "leave me be and let me do my job". There was some knock showing on the log that lifted the heads. He also knew I had 109 race fuel with me and a meth kit installed (just needed to fill the bottle). If I would have used one, the other or both, it may have been safer? He also reduced the knock sensor sensitivity (maybe this is normal though?)
I paid a professional (ASA certified mechanic, tuner for 10 years) to do a professional job. I didn't receive professional service. Period.
I am not to blame at all. The shop owner also agreed that my motor was pushed to the limit. (I made it clear that I wanted a safe tune). The car currently dies often, due to low idle, and shifts harshly at low RPM downshifts. I suppose this is my fault also.

Then I assume that a self proclaimed "professional tuner" shouldn't have neither.

Directly from the tuner's website -

ASE Certified Master Tech, ASE Certified Advanced Engine Performance Specialist,
and Professional Tuner

I thought I was safe with someone with these credentials?!

punishmentcycle

iTrader: (6)

personally..i wouldnt have run 20lbs without some sort of protection...(meth.race gas) even though i dont like meth. asking 20lbs on a stock shortblock with just pump gas was doomed from the start

CADZLA

Thanks for the feedback guys. I appreciate it. I am going to a local shop this week to have compression test done, leak down, pull plugs again, make sure all is ok. For the tuner's sake, more so than mine, I truly hope everything looks good. If so, I'll find another tuner (local), and/or or seek some advice from some of the professionals on HP Tuners forum and hopefully get the car dialed in. I'll stay with the current 16psi, probably run the meth as well to be safe.

Thanks. I am not at 20psi anymore, but 16. I still should hit 700, as I was at what would have been around 660 on a dyno jet (600 on the Mustang) with IATs through the roof. I will keep you updated. Need to work on a new game plan now.

aQuickLS1

iTrader: (7)

If you were uncomfortable with 20psi, then why did you let him continue to make runs on the dyno. With every post you seem to add “he knew this and that,” which seems a little sketchy.

And what does drain HX stand for? Heat exchanger?

GA95DCMSS

iTrader: (13)

If you turn your finger around in the opposite direction, then you are partly to blame for it. You KNEW what kind of boost you were running I'm sure, as you stated you saw 22psi once and the tuner told you to put a larger pulley on, so you put the next size up or w/e to make 20psi. A tuner is not responsible for mechanical failures while on the dyno, and alot of times, they will have you sign a waiver stating such. Is it the tuner's fault because someones driveshaft snaps on the dyno and destroys the rear half of their freshly built transmission? I'm going to go with NO on that one. Since the tuner had nothing to do with building the shortblock, you cannot blame him. You say you wanted a safe tune, but are trying to push 20+psi on a stock shortblock through a Whipple with stock head bolts...brought race fuel and a meth kit, so obviously you had intentions of pushing this thing pretty far...A tune can only save so much. The meth kit nor the race fuel would have prevented the lifting of the heads. Detonation doesn't cause the lifting of the cylinder heads, combustion chamber pressures that exceed the clamping load of the hardware does. Detonation causes stock pistons to break/shatter if severe enough. It sounds like you came in there with the specific goal of pushing the limits of that blower, and it blew up in your face, and now you're playing the blame game. In all reality, yea it sucks, but you being not willing to take any responsibility for your own actions, or lack there of is not going to make the situation any better.

punishmentcycle

iTrader: (6)

you have a very valid point..the tuner didnt put the pulleys on...and he did said "put the bigger pulley back on" once he heard how much it was boosting.

i wouldnt have even attempted to drive the car with a new whipple on there till it was dyno tuned and i knew it was safe to beat on. sounds as if the OP got it all together and started beating the **** out of it without even adjusting the tune.

stock bottom end's can only take so much and ill be very surprised if this one survived.

with that said, i think its a little of both thier faults

aQuickLS1

iTrader: (7)

I think the hostility in this thread just went up a notch.

Dmax/04V

**** gets real on ze interwebs....

CADZLA

The tuner told me the pulley combo (and 20 psi) was safe in his opinion. He is SUPPOSE TO BE THE EXPERT, not me. I didn't take race gas and meth to push the motor. It was to be used for quite the opposite, as in safety. I didn't say nitrous. The tuner said he is a meth head but didn't tell me to fill up the cell and spray it. He knew I had 5 gallons of MS109 but didn't say I needed to take out the 93 and run the race fuel. He saw the logs (if he looked at them) for the first 5 or 6 pulls. He should have known that he was pushing the motor to the max. He continued to push it until the damage occurred. This wouldn't have happened with a good tuner. The shop owner NEVER saw a car lift heads while being tuned on a dyno, and he's been in the business for a long time. So I am sure the few of you (being the minority) already know who this tuner is and you're attempting to protect him. I am only interested in unbiased opinions, and I have enough at this time. The majority rules. If I find that there is damage to the motor, it will be a judge that decides the outcome of the matter.

heavymetals

iTrader: (3)

WHEEEEEE..................................

Welcome to the internet.

IMO I never saw the OP as being so blatantly stupid to reduce it to racial inferences and insults.

Reminds me of the car in "Animal House" and famous line:

"You fucked up, you trusted us"

CADZLA

I specifically asked the tuner should I put the 3.75 pulley on. He said the 3.5 would be ok. He said to put the bigger pulley back on AFTER THE HEADS LIFTED.

aQuickLS1

iTrader: (7)

I don't think race fuel or meth would keep you from lifting the heads.

And no, I don't know the tuner. Like said above you can't just blame the tuner.