Tuner ran my car at 20psi and 210 IAT2s, guess what happened?
#21
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Tuner was in town a few weeks ago. After the first pull on dyno, boost was 20psi and IATs were over 200. I told him that the HX needed to be bled, and that the boost was rather high. He ignored me, continued to do pull after pull (only changing timing I believe) until on the 6th or 7th run I had coolant coming out from both sides of the motor.
I believe the combo of the high heat and the high boost caused the heads to lift. The plugs were pulled and looked good, compression test was good.
I have 09 with only 11k miles, whipple 2.9, cam, HX, SW exhaust. The head bolts were stock (tuner knew this), but arp studs were installed when new head gaskets were put on.
Was 20psi and 210 IAT2s the probable cause of the failure?
Thanks.
I believe the combo of the high heat and the high boost caused the heads to lift. The plugs were pulled and looked good, compression test was good.
I have 09 with only 11k miles, whipple 2.9, cam, HX, SW exhaust. The head bolts were stock (tuner knew this), but arp studs were installed when new head gaskets were put on.
Was 20psi and 210 IAT2s the probable cause of the failure?
Thanks.
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^ wish LS1 had a like button... lol... but honestly on C16 20 PSI can be had on a stock long block with studs. ive seen it done and last for 3 years. not all will last but this one did. good timing, good parts, good longblock and a good tune they will last until one thing goes wrong then its game over
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i have seen your post on the cadillac forums as well, you stated that there was no detonation present at the time of teardown after this dyno session..... so that being stated likely tuning wasnt the cause of your failure.... maybe the cause of your failure is the fact you are running a 2.9 whipple that is pullied down (20psi and you cant turn the boost down like a turbo), and STOCK HEAD BOLTS!!... maybe the tuner can edit the head bolt tension table and max it out
... it was your faulty combination that failed, stop with the blame game, man up and fix your **** right and start over...
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I'll try and answer the remainder of the questions in one post. My builder is Chad Barton, CBI street cars, suburb of St. Louis. He's a great guy with 14+ years experience with LSx motors. The motor is stock with exception of a cam (springs, trunnion kit, etc) and the whipple, exhaust, HX. The pulleys at the time were 10" lower and 3.5" upper (blower RPM was at or below whipple's 18k RPM warranty threshold).
The car made 600 on a mustang dyno, Again this was with 210 IAT2s (my IATS were never this high, even on 104 degree days), so I was losing power there, obviously. V's with similar builds are making 700-760 on dyno jets.
I have HP Tuners, and have been learning a lot lately.
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You are in the small minority my friend. It was the TUNER'S fault to continue pull after pull knowing the boost was 20 and there were stock head bolts. This is why I pay PROFESSIONALS. Well, a supposed professional. I had four different pulleys with me, so we could have changed to larger one in 5 minutes. The same tuner couldn't get me more power with 109 octane! In fact the power went down 13HP. It's about time guys that screw up take blame and be held accountable. Yes there was knock present in the 2 logs he sent me (out of the 5 or 6 pulls). But he also reduced knock sensor sensitivity as well, so I have no idea if knock value is valid.
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In all honesty, it sounds like some misplaced finger pointing is going on in this thread. You put a combination on a stock shortblock that you KNEW would make 20 psi. The stock shortblock has limits, and you sir, found them on the dyno.
The tuner threw it on the dyno, to tune it of course, and it lifted the heads with stock head bolts. That I can say, I honestly wouldn't blame the tuner for it. There is nothing in HPTuners that is going to tell you that you are stretching the stock head bolts beyond their clamping limits. If you drove out of the shop and it lifted the heads a block down the road, would you still blame the tuner? You wanted to push the limits of your combination, and you found it. If you wanted something safe, why didn't you put a smaller pulley on from the jump? I'm sorry, but I feel your blame is sorely misplaced.
The tuner threw it on the dyno, to tune it of course, and it lifted the heads with stock head bolts. That I can say, I honestly wouldn't blame the tuner for it. There is nothing in HPTuners that is going to tell you that you are stretching the stock head bolts beyond their clamping limits. If you drove out of the shop and it lifted the heads a block down the road, would you still blame the tuner? You wanted to push the limits of your combination, and you found it. If you wanted something safe, why didn't you put a smaller pulley on from the jump? I'm sorry, but I feel your blame is sorely misplaced.
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In all honesty, it sounds like some misplaced finger pointing is going on in this thread. You put a combination on a stock shortblock that you KNEW would make 20 psi. The stock shortblock has limits, and you sir, found them on the dyno.
The tuner threw it on the dyno, to tune it of course, and it lifted the heads with stock head bolts. That I can say, I honestly wouldn't blame the tuner for it. There is nothing in HPTuners that is going to tell you that you are stretching the stock head bolts beyond their clamping limits. If you drove out of the shop and it lifted the heads a block down the road, would you still blame the tuner? You wanted to push the limits of your combination, and you found it. If you wanted something safe, why didn't you put a smaller pulley on from the jump? I'm sorry, but I feel your blame is sorely misplaced.
The tuner threw it on the dyno, to tune it of course, and it lifted the heads with stock head bolts. That I can say, I honestly wouldn't blame the tuner for it. There is nothing in HPTuners that is going to tell you that you are stretching the stock head bolts beyond their clamping limits. If you drove out of the shop and it lifted the heads a block down the road, would you still blame the tuner? You wanted to push the limits of your combination, and you found it. If you wanted something safe, why didn't you put a smaller pulley on from the jump? I'm sorry, but I feel your blame is sorely misplaced.
I paid a professional (ASA certified mechanic, tuner for 10 years) to do a professional job. I didn't receive professional service. Period.
I am not to blame at all. The shop owner also agreed that my motor was pushed to the limit. (I made it clear that I wanted a safe tune). The car currently dies often, due to low idle, and shifts harshly at low RPM downshifts. I suppose this is my fault also.
Then I assume that a self proclaimed "professional tuner" shouldn't have neither.
Directly from the tuner's website -
ASE Certified Master Tech, ASE Certified Advanced Engine Performance Specialist,
and Professional Tuner
I thought I was safe with someone with these credentials?!
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Thanks for the feedback guys. I appreciate it. I am going to a local shop this week to have compression test done, leak down, pull plugs again, make sure all is ok. For the tuner's sake, more so than mine, I truly hope everything looks good. If so, I'll find another tuner (local), and/or or seek some advice from some of the professionals on HP Tuners forum and hopefully get the car dialed in. I'll stay with the current 16psi, probably run the meth as well to be safe.
Thanks. I am not at 20psi anymore, but 16. I still should hit 700, as I was at what would have been around 660 on a dyno jet (600 on the Mustang) with IATs through the roof. I will keep you updated. Need to work on a new game plan now.
Thanks. I am not at 20psi anymore, but 16. I still should hit 700, as I was at what would have been around 660 on a dyno jet (600 on the Mustang) with IATs through the roof. I will keep you updated. Need to work on a new game plan now.
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If you were uncomfortable with 20psi, then why did you let him continue to make runs on the dyno. With every post you seem to add “he knew this and that,” which seems a little sketchy.
And what does drain HX stand for? Heat exchanger?
And what does drain HX stand for? Heat exchanger?
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My finger is pointing in the right direction. He knew the boost level, he knew the pulley combo (he recommended it), he saw the timing and he saw the high IAT2s. But he wasn't telling me what was going on after each pull. He doesn't like to be questioned while on the dyno, he said "leave me be and let me do my job". There was some knock showing on the log that lifted the heads. He also knew I had 109 race fuel with me and a meth kit installed (just needed to fill the bottle). If I would have used one, the other or both, it may have been safer? He also reduced the knock sensor sensitivity (maybe this is normal though?)
I paid a professional (ASA certified mechanic, tuner for 10 years) to do a professional job. I didn't receive professional service. Period.
I am not to blame at all. The shop owner also agreed that my motor was pushed to the limit. (I made it clear that I wanted a safe tune). The car currently dies often, due to low idle, and shifts harshly at low RPM downshifts. I suppose this is my fault also.
I paid a professional (ASA certified mechanic, tuner for 10 years) to do a professional job. I didn't receive professional service. Period.
I am not to blame at all. The shop owner also agreed that my motor was pushed to the limit. (I made it clear that I wanted a safe tune). The car currently dies often, due to low idle, and shifts harshly at low RPM downshifts. I suppose this is my fault also.
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If you turn your finger around in the opposite direction, then you are partly to blame for it. You KNEW what kind of boost you were running I'm sure, as you stated you saw 22psi once and the tuner told you to put a larger pulley on, so you put the next size up or w/e to make 20psi. A tuner is not responsible for mechanical failures while on the dyno, and alot of times, they will have you sign a waiver stating such. Is it the tuner's fault because someones driveshaft snaps on the dyno and destroys the rear half of their freshly built transmission? I'm going to go with NO on that one. Since the tuner had nothing to do with building the shortblock, you cannot blame him. You say you wanted a safe tune, but are trying to push 20+psi on a stock shortblock through a Whipple with stock head bolts...brought race fuel and a meth kit, so obviously you had intentions of pushing this thing pretty far...A tune can only save so much. The meth kit nor the race fuel would have prevented the lifting of the heads. Detonation doesn't cause the lifting of the cylinder heads, combustion chamber pressures that exceed the clamping load of the hardware does. Detonation causes stock pistons to break/shatter if severe enough. It sounds like you came in there with the specific goal of pushing the limits of that blower, and it blew up in your face, and now you're playing the blame game. In all reality, yea it sucks, but you being not willing to take any responsibility for your own actions, or lack there of is not going to make the situation any better.
i wouldnt have even attempted to drive the car with a new whipple on there till it was dyno tuned and i knew it was safe to beat on. sounds as if the OP got it all together and started beating the **** out of it without even adjusting the tune.
stock bottom end's can only take so much and ill be very surprised if this one survived.
with that said, i think its a little of both thier faults
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The tuner told me the pulley combo (and 20 psi) was safe in his opinion. He is SUPPOSE TO BE THE EXPERT, not me. I didn't take race gas and meth to push the motor. It was to be used for quite the opposite, as in safety. I didn't say nitrous. The tuner said he is a meth head but didn't tell me to fill up the cell and spray it. He knew I had 5 gallons of MS109 but didn't say I needed to take out the 93 and run the race fuel. He saw the logs (if he looked at them) for the first 5 or 6 pulls. He should have known that he was pushing the motor to the max. He continued to push it until the damage occurred. This wouldn't have happened with a good tuner. The shop owner NEVER saw a car lift heads while being tuned on a dyno, and he's been in the business for a long time. So I am sure the few of you (being the minority) already know who this tuner is and you're attempting to protect him. I am only interested in unbiased opinions, and I have enough at this time. The majority rules. If I find that there is damage to the motor, it will be a judge that decides the outcome of the matter.
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I specifically asked the tuner should I put the 3.75 pulley on. He said the 3.5 would be ok. He said to put the bigger pulley back on AFTER THE HEADS LIFTED.
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I don't think race fuel or meth would keep you from lifting the heads.
And no, I don't know the tuner. Like said above you can't just blame the tuner.
And no, I don't know the tuner. Like said above you can't just blame the tuner.
Last edited by aQuickLS1; 09-18-2012 at 04:40 PM.