Post What Fuel System You're Running!
11-26-2012, 09:28 AM
#41
For the ForeInnovation CTS-V Gen II.
The assembled height is 149mm (just under 6 inches) with the pump prefilters installed.
Perhaps DMM can confirm this is adequate when he has some time free.
Has anyone looked into the seal itself?
I have attached the drawing provided.
If someone has the stock seal sitting around? Or the part number for?
Does anyone have the fuel system schematic for the Gen I handy?
The assembled height is 149mm (just under 6 inches) with the pump prefilters installed.
Perhaps DMM can confirm this is adequate when he has some time free.
Has anyone looked into the seal itself?
I have attached the drawing provided.
If someone has the stock seal sitting around? Or the part number for?
Does anyone have the fuel system schematic for the Gen I handy?
Last edited by vmapper; 11-26-2012 at 09:45 AM.
11-26-2012, 10:13 AM
#42
Looks like for the 09-12 cts-v
pn / ??682111 SEAL,F/PMP(O RING)(PART OF 3,4,5)(APPROX SIZE:147.5MM X 6MM)(3.112)
for the 04-07
pn/ ??901272
can anyone confirm if the seal will be an issue?
pn / ??682111 SEAL,F/PMP(O RING)(PART OF 3,4,5)(APPROX SIZE:147.5MM X 6MM)(3.112)
for the 04-07
pn/ ??901272
can anyone confirm if the seal will be an issue?
11-26-2012, 10:19 AM
#43
The ForeInnovation pumps are individual aftermarket pumps that are fitted into an aftermarket manufactured housing. Hence, each pump will have its own check valve.
For the CTS-V V2 OE application there is no need for individual pump operation. Hence cost and complexity can be reduced. For its intended purpose the CTS-V V2 fuel module is an outstanding piece of engineering hardware.
For the CTS-V V2 OE application there is no need for individual pump operation. Hence cost and complexity can be reduced. For its intended purpose the CTS-V V2 fuel module is an outstanding piece of engineering hardware.
11-26-2012, 11:23 AM
#44
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Thread Starter
Well, my apologies. I did not have a chance to drop the tank this weekend. I'm also in training driving 200 miles a day for the next 2 weeks so I only have about 2 hrs a night to work on it. Hopeful to get this done by end of week though.
Vmapper - I can get you whatever you need, just please post or PM me what you will need. I have a full schematic for the V1 fuel pump ckt at home and can post it later tonight when I get home.
Vmapper - I can get you whatever you need, just please post or PM me what you will need. I have a full schematic for the V1 fuel pump ckt at home and can post it later tonight when I get home.
Last edited by DMM; 11-26-2012 at 11:38 AM.
11-26-2012, 12:21 PM
#45
I found the diagram.
I was more interested in the specific part numbers, and its clear the GEN II uses a different seal.
The seal is the big concern I am having to make either what you want (GEN II OE) or what I want, the aftermarket ForeInnovation cts-v upgrade to work.
Since the GEN II seal will more than likely NOT work with the GEN I tank, my question is, will the GEN I Seal FIT on the GEN II Module? (or in my case, the ForeInnvation upgrade module?)
Or is there something I am missing that is more of a concern?
So for my case, i know the module has a assembled height of 149mm. Is this close to the bottom of the tank?
For my case:
1. I don't have to deal with the relief valve being a possible limit
2. I have the option to Hobbs control one of the pumps (may run both always)
3. I can utilize my return system -8 feed / -6 return.
4. I can connect the cross-over siphon tube (not sure on the size 3/8"?)
5. I can use the existing HotWire
6. No requirement of PWM controller (as I am boost referenced regulated)
7. I will have to fabricate the float onto the new module (but that should not be too difficult)
8. Cam Ring Fits?
9. can use two 405lph pumps.
for OE replacement
1. PWM controller is required
2. boost controlling would require additional electrical/electronics as the ECM is not capable. And would have the PSI limited by the relief valve.
3. the Float should work properly
4. CAM ring fits?
5. Assembly height of the module (more than likely same as the CTS-V aftermarket.)
6. uses two Bosch 194lph pumps.
I think the Seal is the determining factor for either method, unless someone has something to add?
I was more interested in the specific part numbers, and its clear the GEN II uses a different seal.
The seal is the big concern I am having to make either what you want (GEN II OE) or what I want, the aftermarket ForeInnovation cts-v upgrade to work.
Since the GEN II seal will more than likely NOT work with the GEN I tank, my question is, will the GEN I Seal FIT on the GEN II Module? (or in my case, the ForeInnvation upgrade module?)
Or is there something I am missing that is more of a concern?
So for my case, i know the module has a assembled height of 149mm. Is this close to the bottom of the tank?
For my case:
1. I don't have to deal with the relief valve being a possible limit
2. I have the option to Hobbs control one of the pumps (may run both always)
3. I can utilize my return system -8 feed / -6 return.
4. I can connect the cross-over siphon tube (not sure on the size 3/8"?)
5. I can use the existing HotWire
6. No requirement of PWM controller (as I am boost referenced regulated)
7. I will have to fabricate the float onto the new module (but that should not be too difficult)
8. Cam Ring Fits?
9. can use two 405lph pumps.
for OE replacement
1. PWM controller is required
2. boost controlling would require additional electrical/electronics as the ECM is not capable. And would have the PSI limited by the relief valve.
3. the Float should work properly
4. CAM ring fits?
5. Assembly height of the module (more than likely same as the CTS-V aftermarket.)
6. uses two Bosch 194lph pumps.
I think the Seal is the determining factor for either method, unless someone has something to add?
11-26-2012, 01:31 PM
#46
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As mentioned earlier the PWM system utilizes a fuel pressure switch for control... Pressure drops 3 psi and pump speed is increased instantaneously... No need for boost reference
11-26-2012, 04:41 PM
#47
However, I don't think its ideal, for a few reasons. (my case). I thought I would share them to make others aware of possibles.
1.you have just narrowed the size ability of your existing injector as you are not able to increase the pressure behind it. 60-70psi for example.
The CTS-V module is what, ~65psi target limit?
so Now you cant use any larger than a 65# injector at 64psi as you will not be able to control the min pulsewidth (Min Injector Pulse) to maintain a proper idle. Will stay rich or may not even idle proper as you will go beyond the injector min spec of 1.5ms (for example on Deka 61).
Can the target be lowered? Assuming so, then you need bigger injectors for the power, but lower Rail pressure to maintain idle ability. Your not going to successfully tune idle with 85# injectors with a constant rail pressure of 65psi. You will have to run the rail at a lower PSI.
How much are 120#+ injectors?
2.Its a constant give and take.
Lower pressure for good stoic idle, larger injector for power limit required so.. Increase injector size, you must lower the rail pressure further...
I can get away with making 61 Dekas look like 77# injectors using a 1:1 regulator and have good Min PW and stoic idle. its all im saying.
3. The Gen I ECMs do not have IFR table that goes into boost region either. Again, would rather flatten this table out, and use a 1:1 regulator to handle both sides of that curve. (vacuum and +Pressure).
Last edited by vmapper; 11-26-2012 at 05:05 PM.
11-26-2012, 05:24 PM
#48
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I get what you're saying and it makes sense.... I honestly don't have the knowledge that some of you do... I wonder if the PWM module can be programmed to specific pressures or use MAP, RPM inputs and such
11-26-2012, 07:31 PM
#49
The VaporWorx PWM systems have an option to make the fuel pressure change 1:1 with manifold pressure. Hence, with an at-idle manifold vacuum of 16inHg and a 12psi boost, total fuel pressure change is 20psi. Set your at-idle fuel pressure to 38psi, add 20, and you're at 58psi. It opens up the door to using a larger injector.
If the Pontiac G8 uses the same seal as the V1 then you're in luck. The V2 module and seal is a drop-in for that car.
The PWM system use fuel pressure as the primary feedback mechanism. RPM is not, IMO, a good method since it can spin the pump faster than the engine demand (downshifting.) TPS is the same thing. A high TPS opening does not mean a high fuel demand. Neither of those methods can accurately control fuel pressure via the pump speed without a mechanical regulator.
For manifold referenced PWM systems the ground and output of the MAP sensor must be tapped. The PWM reads this voltage and increases the pump speed accordingly.
If the Pontiac G8 uses the same seal as the V1 then you're in luck. The V2 module and seal is a drop-in for that car.
The PWM system use fuel pressure as the primary feedback mechanism. RPM is not, IMO, a good method since it can spin the pump faster than the engine demand (downshifting.) TPS is the same thing. A high TPS opening does not mean a high fuel demand. Neither of those methods can accurately control fuel pressure via the pump speed without a mechanical regulator.
For manifold referenced PWM systems the ground and output of the MAP sensor must be tapped. The PWM reads this voltage and increases the pump speed accordingly.
Last edited by CarlC; 11-26-2012 at 07:36 PM.
11-26-2012, 08:24 PM
#50
Good info.
I missed seeing the 1:1 Option with the PWM.
I dont feel like changing over now (too late).
wonder if the 2.5 MAP will mess with the VaporWorx system... as in give the Vaporworx the calibration of the MAP.
so 08-09 G8 seal pn is the same as gen II ctsv, unfortunately not the same pn as Gen I cts-v.
Cam gear pn are not the same as GEN I either.
sigh...
Love to hate this car...
I missed seeing the 1:1 Option with the PWM.
I dont feel like changing over now (too late).
wonder if the 2.5 MAP will mess with the VaporWorx system... as in give the Vaporworx the calibration of the MAP.
so 08-09 G8 seal pn is the same as gen II ctsv, unfortunately not the same pn as Gen I cts-v.
Cam gear pn are not the same as GEN I either.
sigh...
Love to hate this car...
Last edited by vmapper; 11-26-2012 at 08:34 PM.
11-26-2012, 08:53 PM
#51
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Thread Starter
I would not worry about a seal, something can be made to work. If the V2 uses a lip seal type, an O-ring can still work just as well. Hell, I'm installing a bastardized E Force that started life destined for a C6 Corvette onto my V...and just ordered a CS kit to install a Ford 8.8" rear.
A seal is not a deal breaker here my man, honestly! Never underestimate the ingenuity of a desperate man without any other options, LOL!
A seal is not a deal breaker here my man, honestly! Never underestimate the ingenuity of a desperate man without any other options, LOL!
11-26-2012, 11:24 PM
#53
I've worked on several different applications where the stock hat was retained and adapted to the newer modules. Usually it requires modifying the down-rods so that correct height and clocking are obtained then setting the spring preloads accordingly. It's really pretty straightforward. I have parts available to rework the wiring as well for some applications.
I can make the PWM kit work with any BAR MAP sensor. If I have not built one using your particular sensor I can build and tune it to suit. If you have the P/N on the sensor I'll know from the build library if it's been done.
As far as which pump to use it depends on what the goals are. From a price standpoint the ZL1 module is about $160 less expensive than the CTS-V2, but it does not flow as much. At 13.5v the ZL1 flows 390lb/hr @ 60psi, the V2 482lb/hr. So, at 0.6BSFC the ZL1 will do 650hp, the CTS-V 800. However, these are flywheel numbers, not piston. For superchargers like the TVS2300, these require about 120hp to drive, so if 700FWHP is the goal, the piston horsepower reqirement is 820. A 0.6BSFC has shown to be very conservative on supercharged LS engines.
As a point of comparison my LS1 is supercharged using a Magnuson TVS1900 @ 9.1lbs of boost. It makes 490RWHP/T56. With this setup the CTS-V2 pump in the car hits maybe 11.5 volts output (average) in a 14.2v system. There is a boatload of overhead. The ZL1 pump would be a better match since having too much pump does nothing except lighten the wallet.
I can make the PWM kit work with any BAR MAP sensor. If I have not built one using your particular sensor I can build and tune it to suit. If you have the P/N on the sensor I'll know from the build library if it's been done.
As far as which pump to use it depends on what the goals are. From a price standpoint the ZL1 module is about $160 less expensive than the CTS-V2, but it does not flow as much. At 13.5v the ZL1 flows 390lb/hr @ 60psi, the V2 482lb/hr. So, at 0.6BSFC the ZL1 will do 650hp, the CTS-V 800. However, these are flywheel numbers, not piston. For superchargers like the TVS2300, these require about 120hp to drive, so if 700FWHP is the goal, the piston horsepower reqirement is 820. A 0.6BSFC has shown to be very conservative on supercharged LS engines.
As a point of comparison my LS1 is supercharged using a Magnuson TVS1900 @ 9.1lbs of boost. It makes 490RWHP/T56. With this setup the CTS-V2 pump in the car hits maybe 11.5 volts output (average) in a 14.2v system. There is a boatload of overhead. The ZL1 pump would be a better match since having too much pump does nothing except lighten the wallet.
11-27-2012, 12:12 AM
#54
2.5 bar sensor.
http://www.dpecorvettes.com/gpage4.html
These modified map sensors may not work.. as stated in VaporWorx document, 1, 2 or 3 bar.
What is the price of a VaporWorx Fuel pump control system (with 1:1 rate control)?
http://www.dpecorvettes.com/gpage4.html
These modified map sensors may not work.. as stated in VaporWorx document, 1, 2 or 3 bar.
What is the price of a VaporWorx Fuel pump control system (with 1:1 rate control)?
Last edited by vmapper; 11-27-2012 at 12:17 AM.
11-27-2012, 01:05 PM
#55
I have to say... PWM is the best method.
No external regulator, no return lines, no excessive cycling and heating of fuel, no $$ for several connectors. Slick. I wish I did this before the route I took.
Clean setup idea, twin pump stock location, one -8 feed line to filter then directly to rails. 1:1 PWM controlled proper pressure (45-60psi), ID850 or ID1000 (cc). done. Would be reliable, no cavitation, no heating fuel, no excessive amperage draw.
I am running a Autometer 5677 Elite Gauges(new data logging ability). - I think this is a 3Bar sensor, dont know the part number specifics off hand.
The Map sensor that comes with this gauge would work better?
No external regulator, no return lines, no excessive cycling and heating of fuel, no $$ for several connectors. Slick. I wish I did this before the route I took.
Clean setup idea, twin pump stock location, one -8 feed line to filter then directly to rails. 1:1 PWM controlled proper pressure (45-60psi), ID850 or ID1000 (cc). done. Would be reliable, no cavitation, no heating fuel, no excessive amperage draw.
I am running a Autometer 5677 Elite Gauges(new data logging ability). - I think this is a 3Bar sensor, dont know the part number specifics off hand.
The Map sensor that comes with this gauge would work better?
Last edited by vmapper; 11-27-2012 at 06:39 PM.
11-28-2012, 10:48 PM
#56
I can build a PWM kit to fit that MAP sensor. I would however want to have the sensor in-hand to tune the system accordingly.
Instead of using that sensor could the V2 MAP sensor be adapted? It's less expensive, has a 3bar range, and can be easily replaced with a dealer part.
The price, depending on options such as fixed or variable pressure, wiring, and the number of driven pumps can be between $500-$650. For a single module setup, CTS-V2, 1:1 pressure system will likely be around $550. That will include everything needed to electrically control the fuel module.
Instead of using that sensor could the V2 MAP sensor be adapted? It's less expensive, has a 3bar range, and can be easily replaced with a dealer part.
The price, depending on options such as fixed or variable pressure, wiring, and the number of driven pumps can be between $500-$650. For a single module setup, CTS-V2, 1:1 pressure system will likely be around $550. That will include everything needed to electrically control the fuel module.
12-02-2012, 12:00 AM
#57
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Thread Starter
Still trying to get everything together...making progress though. So, I figured I'd post a pic. I've had this damn thing on and off about 12 times now, lol! Finally have it bolted down, fuel lines completed and hooked up, and am now fabbing the HEX lines. Might have it running tomorrow.
This is proving a little harder and more time consuming than I had originally thought it would be.
This is proving a little harder and more time consuming than I had originally thought it would be.
12-02-2012, 12:41 AM
#60
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Thread Starter
Thanks! When I start the build thread, you'll see why it's been taking so long.
Man, my apologies, but I haven't gotten that far yet. I have run into a few roadblocks and have had to re-engineer a few things...all of which I had either not initially contemplated or underestimated the level of effort required.
This is going to be a short week for me anyhow b/c I leave for Hatfield McCoy trails on Thursday and won't be home until Sunday. I will likely be dropping the tank next week.
***HOPEFULLY***
I will definitely be taking lots of pics and lots of measurements as well as test fitting with the other modules I have laying around. If there is something else that is needed, I can drop the tank again when I get the CS 8.8 kit...which should be about 4-5 weeks out.
This is going to be a short week for me anyhow b/c I leave for Hatfield McCoy trails on Thursday and won't be home until Sunday. I will likely be dropping the tank next week.
***HOPEFULLY***
I will definitely be taking lots of pics and lots of measurements as well as test fitting with the other modules I have laying around. If there is something else that is needed, I can drop the tank again when I get the CS 8.8 kit...which should be about 4-5 weeks out.