ls1247

iTrader: (2)

they have to move at least a little or the suspension wouldn't articulate...

NIKDSC5

iTrader: (10)

by articulation you mean up and down with the suspension then yes. But In and out (toe adjustment) no. Fuzzy is correct, with toe rods the less you can get them to deflect the better. That's why CS made the other version of the toe rods at my request with the large heim joint ends. Had a group buy for them.

But if that toe rod adjustment moves at all and allows changes in the wheels toe alignment it causes all sorts of issues. The primary for our cars is wheel
Hop.

ls1247

iTrader: (2)

You're stating the obvious but even the heims have some slop in them...just saying that a suspension with no compliance is no suspension at all...

NIKDSC5

iTrader: (10)

And you're wrong. Look at an F1 car suspension. They allow for zero deflection. A heim may have play in it sure, but it's a lot less than what a poly bushing allows for.

ls1247

iTrader: (2)

zero deflection to me means no movement. What does it mean in your world?

NIKDSC5

iTrader: (10)

It means the wheel stays straight. And oriented I'm a manner that it was intended.

What you're hung up on is thinking this doesn't allow the wheel to go up and down with suspension travel. Which is wrong. The wheel can still travel up and down as intended. But will not deflect from its correct orientation going forward and back. Or side to side.

BudRacing

iTrader: (3)

I think we're just mincing words here.

There can be a linear articulation without deflection. Deflection, by definition, is turning away from a straight course.

What Fuzzy and Nik are saying is that there theoretically shouldn't be any compliance outside of the intended short arch to follow suspension travel. I get it, but don't see Heim joints as a very practical solution for daily street driven use over long periods of time. Outside of Heim joints, perhaps something similar in design to the poly bushing shape but instead in brass, aluminum or delrin with the same grease channels could be more suitable for longevity. I have no interest in going this route as what I have is still drastically better than stock, but from an absolute performance perspective no deflection is key. But that would also stand the same for any of the bushings.

Creative Steel

At the most extreme levels this car has been taken to, gtistile isn't seeing any visual changes in toe on a 1.46 60' with our polyurethane toe rods. Now, yes they may move a couple thousandths of an inch, but for a street vehicle, you will not notice that difference. Most alignment shops won't get it setup that close.

AAIIIC

iTrader: (19)

As Fuzzy stated above, they're BMR toe links for a Camaro/G8. At the time I got them (early 2013), the only aftermarket option for the V was the BMR version, which I think is a poor design due to where the adjustment is located. I bought a pair of the Camaro/G8 ones to compare and went ahead and installed them once I figured out it could work with minimal modification. Discussion in this thread, my experimentation starts at post #50.

I don't think my butt dyno would be sensitive enough to pick up the difference between these links with poly bushings vs other links with spherical bearings. However, if one wants the spherical bearing type, I don't see any reason to go with the Camaro/G8 part (TR004) when BMR already makes the TR001 to fit our cars. The TR004 has the same general design (with the inner adjustment in a poor location), costs nearly 40% more, and wouldn't be a direct fit.

FuzzyLog1c

iTrader: (4)

You can't see less than 3-5 degrees of deflection in a dynamic environment. But I can cause a couple of hundredths of a degree of toe angle change on my car when it's on the laser alignment rig just by grabbing a wheel with both hands and torquing it. Most shops out here do toe angles to +/-0.01 degrees.

Choppy_Idle

What about the more stress on brackets and wheel suspension which are connected with the modified toe rod by spherical joint, if there is no rubber or PU to absorb the beats, the weldings can become flaws from the hard way, you use them, will they last forever or the next modding hell???

And at least its transit more noise from road etc.

Regards,
Ronald

FuzzyLog1c

iTrader: (4)

I would be more worried about the underbody rusting away than the fatigue stress associated with heim joints. I've been running heim joints in the rear for 5-6 years now with no problems other than the joints themselves wearing out. There are tons of domestic track monsters (e.g. C4 and C5 Vettes) going on 15-25 years with them with no problems.

Speaking of welds, though, if you have the subframe out of the car, you should consider doing a seam weld to increase stiffness over the OEM stitch weld. That's a relatively cheap and easy upgrade, and it's one of the first things the pros do when they can't use a tubular chassis.

ls1247

iTrader: (2)

If the heim has any play, even very little, there will be some level of deflection.

vroom_vroom

iTrader: (5)

Got it fired today albeit with nothing behind the cats. Off to have some some connectors made up in the am. Sounds nasty open!

https://youtu.be/jgZnM_Ys-vI

NIKDSC5

iTrader: (10)

Do you even read what others write? I don't think that you think, before you post.

ls1247

iTrader: (2)

sure i I read all this and my conclusion is the same....

if a suspension is going to function, it has to move. If it moves, there's clearance. If there's clearance, there will be some minute level of deflection no matter what you do. Sure at an f1 level this could be engineered down to complete insignificance but if you could measure it, you'd find some level of instability.

But of course, as applied to the V1, this is a fairly ridiculous conversation to have in the first place and if I wasn't taking a dump right now, I wouldn't have bothered.

Matt4949

So just because it's on the topic of the thread...

Getting ready for spring after a long winter. Today I pulled the driveshaft, lowered the tranny, and pulled the linkage.

Driveshaft will be on its way to VoodooChikin soon.

But look at this, some *** clown tried to bandaid these shot bushings with electrical tape. Not amused

Will be replaced with CS bushings...







Oh, I got the MightyMouse catch can installed the other day too. So, yeah, it's been a party in the garage lately!

BudRacing

iTrader: (3)

That is a scene all too familiar.

Which MM can did you order, btw?

Matt4949

It never ends with this car! As soon as I free up the jack from supporting the transmission, I'll be pulling the rear cradle again (WW trailing arms).

I got the Gen 4 PCV can with a 3/8 barb for now. I plan on being boosted at some point in the future and that setup allows me to basically change fittings at will depending upon the application.

If you have any questions, Email David (MightyMouse). He has been extremely helpful and patient, I can't recommend his service enough. And he'll set you up with whatever you need for your particular application.

Also, I think it looks boss in that bay!

vroom_vroom

iTrader: (5)

Had my connector pipes made for my headers and I'm loving the new found torque! I will give this car some credit the headers and booster install are some of the easiest I have put in. I think I would set my ta on fire before trying to take my headers of my Pontiac again.