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1997 Thunderbird Gen III Budget Engine Swap
01-06-2014, 02:37 PM
#202
No real updates to report beyond I've been driving the heck out of the car daily in all sorts of weather and playing with settings in HP Tuners for economy and power.
Going down the highway in the snow @ 45MPH on New Years Day.
I'm not sure I've even been in legitimate -5 degree weather (non wind chill) until today. WTF?
Parts have slowly been accumulating at the house for a much needed makeover next summer.
Going down the highway in the snow @ 45MPH on New Years Day.
I'm not sure I've even been in legitimate -5 degree weather (non wind chill) until today. WTF?
Parts have slowly been accumulating at the house for a much needed makeover next summer.
01-06-2014, 09:30 PM
#203
We are bottoming out at 8*F tonight.I thought I lived in SC.I think I been transported to Minnesota.Can't wait for the remake.I just wrecked my Cavalier tonight.A 16 year old girl turned in front of me and I Tee boned her.She was driving a brand new Mazda 3.
01-27-2014, 05:04 PM
#204
sweet..more updates! haven't been to this thread in a while..been reading over your last few posts. I'm surprised to hear about your camber troubles on the rear suspension..I've seen many mark viiis and thunderbirds lowered to where you're at, if not lower and haven't heard anybody having to lengthen the upper control arms. I've always noticed even in stock form these MN12s and FN10s (mark viiis) tuck the tops of the rear wheels in a bit, my mark viii is slightly lower than stock sitting on tokico thunderbird lowering springs and it didn't change the camber. Never had any uneven wear on the tires either.
Noticed you mentioned your old stock center section was a posi?? I thought all v6 birds and cougars came with open rears? Unless you swapped it out and I missed that somewhere. Why not go with a bit more gear in your aluminum 8.8 pumpkin? These pigs need as much gear as you can throw at it to get them out of the hole..lots of mark viii guys report that 3:73s are a very conservative gear upgrade..many of them run 4:10s and have no problem cruising at freeway speeds..not sure what kind of gearing is in your 4l60e? trans though.
On a side note I believe the last time I posted I was talking about the ease of a hub swap..I did it on my car a month or so ago.
took a bit of patience with drilling all 20 holes (pilot hole and final size hole)
fronts were a breeze, swapped to cobra 13" brakes while I was at it.
Noticed you mentioned your old stock center section was a posi?? I thought all v6 birds and cougars came with open rears? Unless you swapped it out and I missed that somewhere. Why not go with a bit more gear in your aluminum 8.8 pumpkin? These pigs need as much gear as you can throw at it to get them out of the hole..lots of mark viii guys report that 3:73s are a very conservative gear upgrade..many of them run 4:10s and have no problem cruising at freeway speeds..not sure what kind of gearing is in your 4l60e? trans though.
On a side note I believe the last time I posted I was talking about the ease of a hub swap..I did it on my car a month or so ago.
took a bit of patience with drilling all 20 holes (pilot hole and final size hole)
fronts were a breeze, swapped to cobra 13" brakes while I was at it.
01-27-2014, 06:16 PM
#205
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sweet..more updates! haven't been to this thread in a while..been reading over your last few posts. I'm surprised to hear about your camber troubles on the rear suspension..I've seen many mark viiis and thunderbirds lowered to where you're at, if not lower and haven't heard anybody having to lengthen the upper control arms. I've always noticed even in stock form these MN12s and FN10s (mark viiis) tuck the tops of the rear wheels in a bit, my mark viii is slightly lower than stock sitting on tokico thunderbird lowering springs and it didn't change the camber. Never had any uneven wear on the tires either.
Noticed you mentioned your old stock center section was a posi?? I thought all v6 birds and cougars came with open rears? Unless you swapped it out and I missed that somewhere. Why not go with a bit more gear in your aluminum 8.8 pumpkin? These pigs need as much gear as you can throw at it to get them out of the hole..lots of mark viii guys report that 3:73s are a very conservative gear upgrade..many of them run 4:10s and have no problem cruising at freeway speeds..not sure what kind of gearing is in your 4l60e? trans though.
On a side note I believe the last time I posted I was talking about the ease of a hub swap..I did it on my car a month or so ago.
took a bit of patience with drilling all 20 holes (pilot hole and final size hole)
fronts were a breeze, swapped to cobra 13" brakes while I was at it.
Noticed you mentioned your old stock center section was a posi?? I thought all v6 birds and cougars came with open rears? Unless you swapped it out and I missed that somewhere. Why not go with a bit more gear in your aluminum 8.8 pumpkin? These pigs need as much gear as you can throw at it to get them out of the hole..lots of mark viii guys report that 3:73s are a very conservative gear upgrade..many of them run 4:10s and have no problem cruising at freeway speeds..not sure what kind of gearing is in your 4l60e? trans though.
On a side note I believe the last time I posted I was talking about the ease of a hub swap..I did it on my car a month or so ago.
took a bit of patience with drilling all 20 holes (pilot hole and final size hole)
fronts were a breeze, swapped to cobra 13" brakes while I was at it.
just beautiful. I have a real soft spot for the first gen mark viiis. love the lines.
01-27-2014, 07:40 PM
#207
thanks guys, my dream would be to do what gofastwithclass did with his thunderbird and swap an LQ4/LQ9 6.0 into it backed by a 4l60e trans..do some basic bolt ons..LS6 intake, cam, valve springs, shift kit, stall and a set of gears...I think it would be a MUCH more fun car!
01-28-2014, 12:34 PM
#209
sweet..more updates! haven't been to this thread in a while..been reading over your last few posts. I'm surprised to hear about your camber troubles on the rear suspension..I've seen many mark viiis and thunderbirds lowered to where you're at, if not lower and haven't heard anybody having to lengthen the upper control arms. I've always noticed even in stock form these MN12s and FN10s (mark viiis) tuck the tops of the rear wheels in a bit, my mark viii is slightly lower than stock sitting on tokico thunderbird lowering springs and it didn't change the camber. Never had any uneven wear on the tires either.
Noticed you mentioned your old stock center section was a posi?? I thought all v6 birds and cougars came with open rears? Unless you swapped it out and I missed that somewhere. Why not go with a bit more gear in your aluminum 8.8 pumpkin? These pigs need as much gear as you can throw at it to get them out of the hole..lots of mark viii guys report that 3:73s are a very conservative gear upgrade..many of them run 4:10s and have no problem cruising at freeway speeds..not sure what kind of gearing is in your 4l60e? trans though.
On a side note I believe the last time I posted I was talking about the ease of a hub swap..I did it on my car a month or so ago.
took a bit of patience with drilling all 20 holes (pilot hole and final size hole)
Noticed you mentioned your old stock center section was a posi?? I thought all v6 birds and cougars came with open rears? Unless you swapped it out and I missed that somewhere. Why not go with a bit more gear in your aluminum 8.8 pumpkin? These pigs need as much gear as you can throw at it to get them out of the hole..lots of mark viii guys report that 3:73s are a very conservative gear upgrade..many of them run 4:10s and have no problem cruising at freeway speeds..not sure what kind of gearing is in your 4l60e? trans though.
On a side note I believe the last time I posted I was talking about the ease of a hub swap..I did it on my car a month or so ago.
took a bit of patience with drilling all 20 holes (pilot hole and final size hole)
I'm not sure I said the stock one was a posi because it wasn't. If I said or implied that I didn't mean to. I found a 7.5" with the same gears in the salvage yard before the build and installed it before the engine swap because I couldn't find a posi 8.8 at the time. The "new" differential I installed recently is an 8.8 because no one sells clutches (and possibly gears) for the 7.5 and it needed clutches. I planned on going to nothing steeper than a 3.5x (daily, highway cruiser, etc.) and opened it up to find the cleanest looking gear set I've even seen in a junked car with 260K on the clock. I would guess the original case had been professionally rebuilt with new Ford gears within the past 15K or less. The fluid looked so good part of me wanted to save that too! I simply couldn't justify disassembling the differential any further only to move from a 3:27 to a 3:5x with gears that looked perfect so I sealed it up, installed new fluid and ran it as-is.
What is the tool made of? Did it work well for you? Did they supply the drill bits for the task or did you have to supply those? If you have to supply the drills, do they tell you what size? I meant to order one several months ago through eBay and realized after paying I had forgotten to add it to the long list of things already in my cart. I like that you can do it on the car, I've had this car apart so many times it's sick.
01-28-2014, 12:44 PM
#210
thanks guys, my dream would be to do what gofastwithclass did with his thunderbird and swap an LQ4/LQ9 6.0 into it backed by a 4l60e trans..do some basic bolt ons..LS6 intake, cam, valve springs, shift kit, stall and a set of gears...I think it would be a MUCH more fun car!
I'ts getting some much needed improvements this summer. I know I said that last year but life and other projects got in the way.
I would really like to find a 1997 / 1998 Mark VIII LSC car to swap but...
My only concerns were staying within budget and keeping everything hidden beneath the original sheet metal and paint. I wanted a true sleeper and I didn't have the budget (or desire) for body mods anyway.
Last edited by gofastwclass; 01-28-2014 at 12:53 PM.
01-29-2014, 05:51 PM
#211
I've never heard of any issues and it wore the tires OK, but I knew there was room for improvement. The alignment shops were complaining and I knew it was wrong because I'm a bit of a corner junkie. I think I'm lowered to that point where the camber starts to tip in really fast on compression so in hard turns it would push a bit then was a little loose from the center off, but just driving normally it was fine. The tires always wore fairly evenly, but if you actually measured them or wore them past the tread you could see something was amiss.
I'm not sure I said the stock one was a posi because it wasn't. If I said or implied that I didn't mean to. I found a 7.5" with the same gears in the salvage yard before the build and installed it before the engine swap because I couldn't find a posi 8.8 at the time. The "new" differential I installed recently is an 8.8 because no one sells clutches (and possibly gears) for the 7.5 and it needed clutches. I planned on going to nothing steeper than a 3.5x (daily, highway cruiser, etc.) and opened it up to find the cleanest looking gear set I've even seen in a junked car with 260K on the clock. I would guess the original case had been professionally rebuilt with new Ford gears within the past 15K or less. The fluid looked so good part of me wanted to save that too! I simply couldn't justify disassembling the differential any further only to move from a 3:27 to a 3:5x with gears that looked perfect so I sealed it up, installed new fluid and ran it as-is.
What is the tool made of? Did it work well for you? Did they supply the drill bits for the task or did you have to supply those? If you have to supply the drills, do they tell you what size? I meant to order one several months ago through eBay and realized after paying I had forgotten to add it to the long list of things already in my cart. I like that you can do it on the car, I've had this car apart so many times it's sick.
I'm not sure I said the stock one was a posi because it wasn't. If I said or implied that I didn't mean to. I found a 7.5" with the same gears in the salvage yard before the build and installed it before the engine swap because I couldn't find a posi 8.8 at the time. The "new" differential I installed recently is an 8.8 because no one sells clutches (and possibly gears) for the 7.5 and it needed clutches. I planned on going to nothing steeper than a 3.5x (daily, highway cruiser, etc.) and opened it up to find the cleanest looking gear set I've even seen in a junked car with 260K on the clock. I would guess the original case had been professionally rebuilt with new Ford gears within the past 15K or less. The fluid looked so good part of me wanted to save that too! I simply couldn't justify disassembling the differential any further only to move from a 3:27 to a 3:5x with gears that looked perfect so I sealed it up, installed new fluid and ran it as-is.
What is the tool made of? Did it work well for you? Did they supply the drill bits for the task or did you have to supply those? If you have to supply the drills, do they tell you what size? I meant to order one several months ago through eBay and realized after paying I had forgotten to add it to the long list of things already in my cart. I like that you can do it on the car, I've had this car apart so many times it's sick.
The hub jig was steel..not forged or anything though..to be honest it was kinda cheap, but it worked, ya get what ya pay for I guess. I actually borrowed it so it didn't matter haha. The jig comes with a pilot bit and a 39/64th bit for the final size hole, but to be honest it is a TIGHT fit in the sleeve. My dad so happened to have a 39/64 bit already that slipped in the sleeve better so I used that. If you get one of those jigs, I'd recommend tack welding the sleeve onto the base because the bit had a tendency to bind up in the sleeve and actually spun the sleeve since it's just pressed in. You just have to use a liberal amount of lube while drilling and frequently pull the bit out to clean the shavings out of the sleeve.
01-29-2014, 05:56 PM
#212
Yeah I was going to say it would be super easy to swap your K member and engine trans and cross member into another either MN12 or even Mark VIII since the K member is the same. All that would be needed is wiring again. Did you make any kind of templates for your engine mounts or accessory brackets?
02-27-2014, 03:25 PM
#213
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First start – Happy day! 
Holy cow, it lives – no weird noises, leaks, etc.! More celebration and elation. 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNSw9Q0P3Dk
A few test drives around the block told me some things about the cooling system I didn’t realize and hadn’t run into before. I was always lucky enough to have a spare port on the radiator or a pressurized overflow to plumb the steam line into but not on this car. It needs to be pressurized. I fabbed up a tube in the upper radiator hose to accept the steam line. Problem solved. I know, I know, why didn’t I drill and tap the water pump? Because if I break down in middle of nowhere ville and need a water pump I don’t want to have to modify one to get back on the road. I also don’t want to answer questions from the parts guy about why he can’t accept my old one as a core because it has an extra hole in it.
Originally I used the factory single exhaust and soda straw sized pipe but I found it so restrictive the car was hardly responsive. I cut off the factory single and installed T bird V8 duals with Lincoln MK VIII 2.5” pipe from the mid point back with the larger Mark VIII “Y” pipe. I will have true duals front to back this coming summer but for the $35 at my favorite used parts vendor and some of my cutting and fabricating I had new factory looking / sounding exhaust. I know there are big money guys that are laughing out of their chairs right now but this car is supposed to be ultra budget and stock appearing. Ultra budget means upgrades happen as money flows in. The car is stock quiet but has a different tone that merely hints at the 300HP gorilla under the hood – if you know what to listen for.
It reminds me a lot of my Cadillac Eldorado ETC, quiet deep rumble that makes you think it is a 6 but hints at V8. Most people have no idea what I have or what hit them until after they see the tail lights. 
I installed a pair of Dakota Digital gauge interfaces to convert the GM speedo and tach signal to the factory Ford gauges. I did a test against my GPS to make sure the speedo was working well and that the speed limiter had been removed…
Not the true top speed but you get the idea...
Of course I was on a closed course and all safety precautions were taken!
This does mean the tune shop did their thing properly which makes me a happy guy.
The car isn’t super fast, it isn’t a drag car nor is it a race car so it’s not supposed to be "fast." On the other hand it IS fun to drive, gets decent mileage when I keep my foot out of it, is completely stealth, fully reliable and idles smoothly while maintaining full use of all accessories.
Mission accomplished!
There are future upgrades being considered but but all revolve around keeping the stealth appearance and daily driver abilities.
Holy cow, it lives – no weird noises, leaks, etc.! More celebration and elation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNSw9Q0P3Dk
A few test drives around the block told me some things about the cooling system I didn’t realize and hadn’t run into before. I was always lucky enough to have a spare port on the radiator or a pressurized overflow to plumb the steam line into but not on this car. It needs to be pressurized. I fabbed up a tube in the upper radiator hose to accept the steam line. Problem solved. I know, I know, why didn’t I drill and tap the water pump? Because if I break down in middle of nowhere ville and need a water pump I don’t want to have to modify one to get back on the road. I also don’t want to answer questions from the parts guy about why he can’t accept my old one as a core because it has an extra hole in it.
Originally I used the factory single exhaust and soda straw sized pipe but I found it so restrictive the car was hardly responsive. I cut off the factory single and installed T bird V8 duals with Lincoln MK VIII 2.5” pipe from the mid point back with the larger Mark VIII “Y” pipe. I will have true duals front to back this coming summer but for the $35 at my favorite used parts vendor and some of my cutting and fabricating I had new factory looking / sounding exhaust. I know there are big money guys that are laughing out of their chairs right now but this car is supposed to be ultra budget and stock appearing. Ultra budget means upgrades happen as money flows in. The car is stock quiet but has a different tone that merely hints at the 300HP gorilla under the hood – if you know what to listen for.
It reminds me a lot of my Cadillac Eldorado ETC, quiet deep rumble that makes you think it is a 6 but hints at V8. Most people have no idea what I have or what hit them until after they see the tail lights. I installed a pair of Dakota Digital gauge interfaces to convert the GM speedo and tach signal to the factory Ford gauges. I did a test against my GPS to make sure the speedo was working well and that the speed limiter had been removed…
Not the true top speed but you get the idea...
Of course I was on a closed course and all safety precautions were taken!
This does mean the tune shop did their thing properly which makes me a happy guy. The car isn’t super fast, it isn’t a drag car nor is it a race car so it’s not supposed to be "fast." On the other hand it IS fun to drive, gets decent mileage when I keep my foot out of it, is completely stealth, fully reliable and idles smoothly while maintaining full use of all accessories.
Mission accomplished!
There are future upgrades being considered but but all revolve around keeping the stealth appearance and daily driver abilities.
Do you possibly have the link for where you got the "Dakota Digital gauge interfaces to convert the GM speedo and tach signal to the factory Ford gauges" I can't seem to find an information about this.
I have a 94 tbird sc that I'm doing this same swap to and have a few questions for you.
Is there room to run manifolds backwards and have it clear everything for a turbo setup?
Last edited by Never_ satisfied; 02-27-2014 at 03:34 PM.
02-27-2014, 05:50 PM
#214
Do you possibly have the link for where you got the "Dakota Digital gauge interfaces to convert the GM speedo and tach signal to the factory Ford gauges" I can't seem to find an information about this.
I have a 94 tbird sc that I'm doing this same swap to and have a few questions for you.
Is there room to run manifolds backwards and have it clear everything for a turbo setup?
I have a 94 tbird sc that I'm doing this same swap to and have a few questions for you.
Is there room to run manifolds backwards and have it clear everything for a turbo setup?
02-27-2014, 06:12 PM
#215
Do you possibly have the link for where you got the "Dakota Digital gauge interfaces to convert the GM speedo and tach signal to the factory Ford gauges" I can't seem to find an information about this.
I have a 94 tbird sc that I'm doing this same swap to and have a few questions for you.
Is there room to run manifolds backwards and have it clear everything for a turbo setup?
I have a 94 tbird sc that I'm doing this same swap to and have a few questions for you.
Is there room to run manifolds backwards and have it clear everything for a turbo setup?
The chassis on these cars (MN12 platform) between the shock towers is pretty narrow. I know I couldn't run stock manifolds and don't completely remember why, but my exhaust is facing the normal direction. I know part of it was steering, but I also think it hit the unibody. If you cut the flanges and welded on V-Bands, you may gain some room by positioning them favorably but you would have to experiment. I wasn't trying to do that so I didn't measure or even try to fit the exhaust that direction. I'm also running full accessories and as the car sits now, my creature comforts would get in the way. As such, my exhaust is completely custom since nothing factory fit.
Hood clearance will be tight. I think the earlier cars had a lower hood line while the 1996-1997 hoods have a slight outward bubble.
03-23-2014, 09:20 PM
#216
Took a weekend trip to hang out with some friends in St. Louis. We did a bunch of non-car related stuff but did sneak in one lonely picture of the dirty car with the arch peeking out in the background. We got a low of 22 MPG with heavy traffic and 25 MPG in lighter traffic averaging around 75+ or so for over 250 miles.
03-24-2014, 06:51 PM
#218
I was about the same mileage as yours initially, which is nothing to get excited about for a V6 (Every car I own including my WS6 TA does better). Even worse, it wouldn't get out of it's own way.
I swapped to a more reliable power plant, doubled the power AND increased the fuel economy at the same time. That is like a triple play of win.
Warm weather is near, parts are arriving and some much needed upgrades will be happening soon.
I swapped to a more reliable power plant, doubled the power AND increased the fuel economy at the same time. That is like a triple play of win.
Warm weather is near, parts are arriving and some much needed upgrades will be happening soon.
03-24-2014, 06:56 PM
#219
I was about the same mileage as yours initially, which is nothing to get excited about for a V6 (Every car I own including my WS6 TA does better). Even worse, it wouldn't get out of it's own way.
I swapped to a more reliable power plant, doubled the power AND increased the fuel economy at the same time. That is like a triple play of win.
Warm weather is near, parts are arriving and some much needed upgrades will be happening soon.
I swapped to a more reliable power plant, doubled the power AND increased the fuel economy at the same time. That is like a triple play of win.
Warm weather is near, parts are arriving and some much needed upgrades will be happening soon.
04-29-2014, 02:54 PM
#220
Launching!
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Love all the tbird love in the LS forums...what they exactly need!!!!!!!
great build thread!!!!!!! iv owned (still do) both MN12 and FN10 and love them both...one supercharged, one NA...id love to have an LS motor on them!!!!!!!!!!
great build thread!!!!!!! iv owned (still do) both MN12 and FN10 and love them both...one supercharged, one NA...id love to have an LS motor on them!!!!!!!!!!
