-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Before I respond, let me just disclaim that I honestly can't tell you what is meant by "on center feel". Maybe I would know if I had more experience between cars and steering technologies, but I'll have to respond based on my limited experience and my own definition. I would break down the on-center feel to three things: if the steering wheel feels "loose" vs "tight", if the car feels "darty" vs "unresponsive" to changes in steering angle, and if the car has a strong or weak tendency to return to center. To me those are the three main things I feel when I'm driving straight down the road "on center". Tell me if there's something more to it!

With regard to being "loose", my car feels very solid on center going down the road since I swapped to this box. I don't feel any "dead" zone in the middle. With the previous box & worn out rag joint, it felt "loose" on center and it felt like I was always swinging the wheel slightly to one direction or the other, wondering in the dead zone in between while going straight down the road. I don't get this feeling at all now; the car just goes straight when I keep my hands in one position and I don't feel at all like I'm exploring a dead zone with the steering wheel. I'm sure this is also affected by all the joints in the system; mine are all in good condition because they've been replaced.

With regards to responsiveness, the car has immediate response if I tug the wheel to one side or the other. I would describe it as feeling "responsive" but not at all "darty". I think this is influenced primarily by the overall steering ratio, which includes the box and steering arm ratios. With my car and a box ratio of 12.7:1, I find it very acceptable for street driving. I feel confident when I pull the wheel to enter a corner and I don't have any unexpected lane changing when I drive straight down the road. I also don't feel like the assist comes on too quickly - it's an in-perceptible transition and feels very predictable. I know companies like Lee go through a process to "center" the valve response in the box; I don't know if that was done by Sweet Mfg on this box, but regardless it feels the same and predictable in either direction.

With regards to the restorative torque (i.e. "return to center" tendency), my car certainly has that, but it does not feel very strong. I think my daily driver '16 Subaru Outback has a stronger return to center. Alignment and tire size is a primary factor in this. I am running a split 6/6.5deg caster, because my local roads have a lot of crown. It would be hard/impossible to get this much caster with stock control arms. I have Global West upper arms that move the balljoint back for more caster. More caster means more restorative torque (i.e. more tendency to return to center), but the main reason I run more caster is to get the tire to camber over as I'm cornering. I don't think the box is influencing this; it's really not any different from how it was with the previous box.

I hope that helps answer your questions. I will say overall I am in love with the change to a heavy steering feel. It makes the car a lot of fun to drive. I've gotten used to the added effort in parking situations and it just feels normal now.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

I have been enjoying my car entirely too much lately, so I decided it was time to convert my driver back into a project car. Jack stand queen felt a little too fancy for me, so the first order of business is getting it up in the air on something stable. I decided to build a set of wooden wheel cribs from 2x4s.

DIY Wood Wheel Cribs

Wood wheel cribs have become popular among the pro touring build crowd because they are relatively inexpensive and provide a stable means of getting the car off the ground. To start the project I bought a stack of
2x4 and a large box of #10 2-1/2" screws. To be exact, this project requires 11 8ft 2x4s (only 10 are pictured because I had another on hand at home already) and 224 screws. All this is to make wheel cribs that are 14" x 16" and 8 layers tall.



I setup a crude stop to get consistent length out of my miter saw. This made the cutting very fast - I think I had all the cuts done in under 20minutes. I cut a 3 pieces of each length from each 2x4, then reset my saw stop and did the remaining pieces of the other length from the remainder of the boards. This left me with a very small waste from each 2x4.





Next I predrilled and screwed each 2x4 down to the previous in an alternating screw pattern. This took FOREVER. A wise person would use a framing nail gun instead - unfortunately I don't have one!







Finally I got the car up in the air. So much room for activities!



Since I live in Southern California where earthquakes do occasionally happen, I decided to strap the stands to the tires so they will stay with the car if things move around.




Now that the car's up in the air, I will start tearing things apart in prep for the (drum roll please) Detroit Speed weld-in subframe connectors and (much bigger better drum roll please) Magnum-F 6-speed manual transmission.

Jimbo1367

Magnum F 6 tranny? Somebody’s been saving, lol. What hydr. Master do u plan on using? Hummmmm do u mean t56? I like the strap idea being you’re in Cali

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Yes sir I've been saving and working for years to get agreement from "finance" (aka Mrs. TheBandit).

Transmission Selection
Tremec recently dropped the "T56" name from "T56 Magnum" because the internals are so different compared to the OEM T56s. The Magnums use TR6060 internals which have a number of improvements and increased capacity and improve shifting over the earlier T56 design. The standard Magnum is an aftermarket version of the TR6060 with features designed for doing a swap into older muscle cars. It has multiple shifter locations and a mechanical drive speedometer. The shifter locations can place the shifter very close to an original location for an original 4 speed, which means if you have a console car, the shifter can come up right where it was originally. This requires the use of a sharply laid-back shifter handle put the shift **** in a reasonable location for the driver.

The problem Tremec ran into was that the standard Magnum shift location wasn't in quite the right position for a 4th gen F-body, so they recently released the Magnum-F. Compared to the standard Magnum, the Magnum-F places the shifter about 3inches rearward compared to the rearmost position in the standard Magnum. After measuring very carefully from my firewall to the engine block and back inside the car, I estimated where the shifter would come up on my tunnel for both versions of the transmission. Based on my measurements and some advice from my X-body swap friends that used F body T56s, I decided the Magnum-F position was a better spot for me.

The downside to using the Magnum-F instead of the Magnum is that more cutting will be required and I will lose the mechanical speedomoter drive. I felt these sacrifices were worth getting the shifter further back.

This guy does a good job explaining the differences including what's different inside the Magnum compared to the T56:


The Magnums come in both "close" and "wide" ratio gearing options. I used a calculator to estimate top speeds in each gear and decided the go with the close ratio.

Hydraulics
For hydraulics, I really liked the design of the Silversport Transmissions setup, so I went with their system. It uses a machined adapter to mount a 3/4" Wilwood master directly to the firewall where the original clutch rod would have gone through.

frojoe

iTrader: (10)

F-body fit was the right call

G Atsma

Wow Clint, can't wait until you get this whole new act together and running! Gonna add a whole new dimension of enjoyment!
Looks like a clean setup, too!

Jimbo1367

Clint,
Great writeup. Sounds like a throughly thought out plan. Very “banditish”. When do you receive the goods and how long will this install take?

Jim

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Thanks Jim. I have the DSE subframe connectors in hand and I'm tearing down the interior now so I can start cutting the floors for them. The transmission and most of the related parts are expected to ship the first week of August. I'll be really happy if I can get it done early/mid September, but who knows what may snowball out of this.

I bought the Magnum-F transmission, hydraulics, crossmember, aluminum bellhousing, gauge plate, and a bunch of small parts from Silversport Transmissions. They provided a quote for their complete "perfect fit" system and I used it as a starting point for my shopping list, but decided to buy some of the components elsewhere. I decided on a Monster Stage 2 clutch and 28lb flywheel from Tick which I ordered Monday. I considered an LS7 clutch as a budget-friendly option, but decided against it due to reported issues with the self adjusting feature and high RPM shifting, plus I understand it's very heavy. I also considered a dual disc Mcleod RST clutch because I understand they have very light pedal feel, but read and saw some reviews that they can rattle when the clutch is disengaged. A local friend has a Monster twin disk LT1-S clutch setup that works great and doesn't make any weird noises, but I just couldn't justify spending that kind of money at this power level.

I have not yet bought an output yoke, electrical connectors, shift handle or ****. For the yoke, I need to decide if I want to upgrade u-joints to 1350 which considerably increases the cost of the driveshaft. Also these transmissions (Magnum & older T56s) have a reverse lockout solenoid that prevents accidental shift into reverse. It's usually controlled by the computer to lock out reverse above a few mph, but my E38 ECM with automatic OS will not pick up the VSS, so I can't use it to control the solenoid. Some folks modify the spring so it can be man-handled into reverse. Others wire the solenoid to the brake switch, which is fine as long as you aren't downshifting that direction while braking. I've also seen people use a toggle switch or momentary/timer button to power the solenoid. There are aftermarket control boxes that will monitor VSS to control the solenoid, but they are around $100. I am undecided for the moment.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

That photo really drives it home for me! Thanks again to you, Mark, Trevor and others for nudging me that direction. I kinda like the riser you built on the tunnel for the shift boot. I may have to borrow that idea.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Thank you! I really can't wait. I think this is going to make the car way more fun to drive, not to mention the overdrive will enable some of the long road trips I've shied away from since I dropped tire diameter. My current highway gearing sucks with 3.73s and 26in tires. I'm screaming around 3,500rpm at 70mph. The 0.63 overdrive in the Magnum will put me around 2,100-2,200rpm at that speed - so much better. I have owned and driven lots of manual transmission cars and I know how much fun/engaging they are to drive. I would have done it from the get-go on this build if I didn't have a good working TH400 that I knew would handle the power and save money.

Kenova

iTrader: (4)

This was the biggest reason (excuse?) I had when I swapped a Magnum into my Nova.
I went from a T10 with 2.20 first gear to the 2.66 first gear Magnum and the difference was night and day. With the 3.32 rear I'm turning approx. 1600 rpm. at 60 mph. A change to 3.73s is on the horizon.
You are making the right choice buying new. Between the asking price of a used T56 plus the inevitable rebuild you may as well buy new. At least you don't have to worry about the currency exchange rate on the Canadian dollar (OUCH).
Good luck with any overhead sheet metal welding you may need to do. That was the most frustrating part for me.

Ken

BillB

Are you thinking about any other Detroit Speed (Quadralink, etc.) parts in the future?

Bill B.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Right now I am not seriously considering anything, but things can always change. For now I am trying to avoid snowballing too far from subframe connectors and transmission swap. There are just way too many "while I'm here" projects that could lead to the car being down far longer than I want.

G Atsma

Good thinking. The subframe connectors will tighten up the chassis if done right. Weld-in, right?

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Yes I am doing Detroit Speed weld-in connectors. I am working on a YouTube video of the install to supplement the build thread. Lately I've gotten interested in editing and trying to shoot video while I do projects, for example below is one I did showing how the factory AC system works and what's needed to make it work with R134a. This video is really long, slow, and poorly edited - I just strung a bunch of cellphone videos together. But for the subframe connector install I am trying to up my production a bit with music, hyperlapse, multiple camera angles, and some shots with me in them.

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Okay folks I'm trying something new by making a video. I think I may be better at photos and typing in a forum, but heck I tried. Check it out and please let me know what you think.


I'm thinking the floorpan is in worse shape than I realized and my fit-up kinda sucks. Feeling a little discouraged but I'll figure it out.

Jimbo1367

At least you’re not trying to TIG it. It will be fine. Just jump around a lot to let it cool enough. Two quick zaps and then go to the opposite side and repeat. You got this

ryeguy2006a

iTrader: (27)

Looks great Clint! Like I said, it's more entertaining than the DSE install video. I look forward to part two!

G Atsma

Man, you did a nice job!
I've seen way worse on YT. You conveyed what was happening and what had to happen in a fairly relaxed, unhurried manner, including any pitfalls which may happen along the way.
Keep doing this! You're a natural!

-TheBandit-

iTrader: (1)

Thank you! It's a tough job taking all the video and editing it down. I spent a lot of time fiddling with the camera instead of getting the job done. It may have lead to some mistakes, but I think the video may help someone down the road.

I noticed in the video the template alignment seemed shifted toward the front of the car. There is a little half-circle drawn on the template that should have lined up with the floor plug. That might explain why there's a gap at the front of the floorpan and why I had to trim more at the rear, plus it would explain the dashed line which is probably a fold location at the back of the pan. I did double check my measurements but perhaps I got the front measurement wrong anyway. I'll check carefully when I do the driver's side cutout.