newschool72

iTrader: (12)

Hey guys, im starting to get a little concerned about fuel starvation on my 72 camaro project and need a little advice.
First a little background on my car. Its a 72 camaro with an LS3 with FAST EZ EFI on a Vic Jr carb style intake. im using the FAST external fuel pump and the fuel pick-up in the tank is the old style factory stuff.
I built this car for more than straight line acceleration. It has the Hoschkis TVS suspension system , big brakes, etc,etc.
Now for my concerns. I live on a very fun road with sharp curves and steep hills and although its way too populated to get crazy on, its still fun at 35-40 mph. Ive been cruising this road while breaking in my ring & pinion and have noticed that even with a half tank of fuel, the gas gauge will drop to 1/8th tank or less in the curves. i can just imagine whats going to happen when I get this thing broke in and want to do an autocross event!
BUDGET is the key word in this question! If I put a fuel cell with foam in the car do you think that would control my fuel slosh problem?

newschool72

iTrader: (12)

Nobody?

rigid

iTrader: (5)

In real road race cells the foam is generally more for explosion suppression than sloshing. In my Fuel Safe cell I have an internal "surge tank". It's mounted in the center of the rear and has check valves on each side. If the fuel sloshes to one side the check valves close on one side and open on the other. That way the pickup can stay submerged even when the fuel sloshes around. They sell the surge tanks separately and I bet you could install it in a stock tank.

newschool72

iTrader: (12)

Thanks Rigid. I will look into it. Anybody know who makes surge tanks for retrofit?

bczee

iTrader: (12)

You could try and put on a Competition Engineering Sump on the rear of the tank for the external pump to pull fuel from.
But if your going through the trouble of doing that. I would look into a complete solution and not just a band aid.. New Baffled tank, Internal pump with a bucket (maybe tanksinc, vaporworks setup, 4th or 5th Gen F-Body sender setup).

BC

BanditDave

iTrader: (11)

Don't waste your time with the Comp sump...works well for a carbed set-up where there is a lower volume demand, but I had it on my TA before I sold it and it just couldn't keep up.

Save yourself some headaches and do like the above have suggested and go with a vaporworx in a Rick's tank or modify a stocker so that there is a baffling set-up to control fuel slosh. You can get away with an external pump like a Bosch 044, but you need to either go with multiple pickups (i.e. vaporworx) with baffling or go intank with bucket like mentioned above.

If you can save up the coin, get the Rick's with the vaporworx set-up. I believe you can also go directly to Carl's site and get an adaptation of the Vaporworx set-up for stock-style tanks.

Check it out...may be the solution for you.

Dave

patooyee

iTrader: (1)

Fuel accumulator.

J. J.

newschool72

iTrader: (12)

Ive done a little research and think that maybe a surge tank would be my best bet at this point. For those that dont know what that is, its a small cylindrical tank that holds spare fuel for the injectors outside the fuel tank. The way I understand it is, a LOW PRESSURE pump pushes the fuel to a fitting at the top of the surge tank, then a fitting comes out of the bottom to the HIGH PRESSURE pump that goes to the injectors, the return line then feeds back to another fitting at the top of the surge tank , then back out of another fitting at the top to the main fuel tank. A lot of plumbing, but that should keep a steady supply of fuel for the injectors all the time, without having to modify the standard pick-up or buy a new tank.

patooyee

iTrader: (1)

A surge tank is to absorb temporary increases / surges in flow. Your coolant system uses (or at least in stock form used) a surge tank to store fluid as pressure expelled it from the radiator and save it for later when thermal contraction sucked it back in. What you are describing is an accumulator.

However, your fuel rails act as tiny little accumulators also.

J. J.

newschool72

iTrader: (12)

I am running a throttle body style FI (fast EZ) so unfortunatly I dont have fuel rails to help me out.
I agree that accumulator sounds like the right thing to call it, but no body told that to the 100s for people selling them on the internet right now. Dont know, must be a ricer term.

patooyee

iTrader: (1)

Ahhh ... I see your concern.

Another option might be to install several Walbro pickups in your tank. Its what us rock bouncer guys do to maintain fuel pickup as we are thrashing wildly around the rocks, sloshing the fuel in our tanks every which way.



You put them in the bottom of your tank and when they aren't submerged in fuel they suck closed to prevent air getting sucked in. They give you multiple pickup points in the tank so that if all the fuel sloshes to one side presumably you have one there to pick it up. They are proven to work and very common in the off-road world. They were originally developed for snow mobiles. I personally have 4 in my fuel cell, one in each corner. In your case I would just put one in each back bottom corner to catch fuel on both sides while cornering under accelleration.

J. J.

bczee

iTrader: (12)

Why brother to do a band aid to a problem.. The root of the problem is starvation, and that is caused by the fuel tank and its pickup. Fix that and you can do away with any Surge Tanks and Accumulator or what nots ...

Do you want to fix a symptom or the problem ?

BC

newschool72

iTrader: (12)

I think the surge tank will fix the symptom, problem, what ever you want to call it. The more I research, the more convinced I am that it is the best solution to my situation. People on corvette, honda, opel, mazda, michahondamozabitchie forums are using these systems in hi-G situations. Alot are fuel injected from the factory, but need it because there cars are modified beyond what the factory anticipated. As far as aftermarket EFI retrofit tanks go, I hear people crying about problems all the time in the same hi-G situation, so I really dont think thats a fix, either. And coming up with my own in tank pump system sounds like a huge PITA. I love fabbing stuff, but building , testing, DRAINING, modifying, testing, DRAINING, etc,etc does not appeal to me at all.

newschool72

iTrader: (12)

Patooyee, those walbro mp-13s are very interesting. All it looks like I would have to do is modify my factory pick-up to have a three port fitting to run one in each corner and one in the center.
How do they attach? or do they just sit loosely in the tank. Also , I wonder if they would work well in my factory style tank ie. not a flat floor.

patooyee

iTrader: (1)

You're basically right. Basically you just tee however many you want into your main pickup line. There are several different types that accommodate different fittings on the top. There is one special one that has a bleed hole in it. I forget which one it is but if you are going to have more than one in there you need at least one of those or the system doesn't operate correctly. I forget the reasons for this. I buy mine here:

http://www.liquidironindustries.com/home.php?cat=273

Some people build elaborate mechanisms to keep them in place, others let them just float. Mine float, I figure I want them going wherever the fuel goes. Here's a pic of my setup before I permanently installed it into my cell:



These work. They are proven on hundreds of rock rigs that have fuel sloshing around like they are in an earthquake. But they are a PITA to work with in the tank as everything has to be manipulated through the main hole in the top. Basically you can only fit one arm in at a time.

J. J.

newschool72

iTrader: (12)

LOL... I cant even get 1 arm in the factory sending unit hole in my factory tank. Hmmmm, my wife has small hands. On second thought, better use my 13 yr old sons hands.
I like your set-up. More involved than I was thinking, but well worth the extra effort.

patooyee

iTrader: (1)

Yeah, its better for folks who are messing with new cells / tanks and who don't have to drain and drop their tanks. But I wanted to throw the option out there for you.

I think the accumulator is a fairly easy thing for you to accomplish and will work well.

J. J.

rigid

iTrader: (5)

I like those walbro pickups. I hadn't actually seen those. In a road race car those would work great. You would only need two and they are cheap. My check valve setup was near $300!

patooyee

iTrader: (1)

$300 for a check valve???

The owner of that website is working on a bigger better version of that pickup with -AN fittings instead of the barbed. He's got patents and everything.

J. J.

rigid

iTrader: (5)

It's actually three giant check valves in a cast plastic tank. But yeah they really give to you on the price of road race parts. But it has been able to keep full fuel pressure up to a near empty tank. Those walbro pickups would probably be good for his setup and they are cheap.

Here's what I've got in mine