Strokedluxury

If anyone is a mechanic, could someone give me an estimate of time(in hours) for a LS swap into a 96 impala ss rolling body? KDS mounts so the engine sits exactly as the LT1. Swap longtube headers for easy installation, factory crossmember and driveshaft was used with my factory transmission. Harness is a plug and play custom harness using the LT1 harness for factory look, ECU location, and fusebox. I was quoted 24 hours labor, which wasn't too bad. However, now that the car is finished im being charged for 60 hours of labor which i found to be ridiculous to drop an engine into an engine bay. Any thoughts?

truckdoug

iTrader: (25)

does the labor charge have a break down by task?

442scotty

I had all my parts set aside waiting for the swap and even with playing around it took me about 30 hrs and that's with taking the old one out as well... Seems a bit much but I suppose each swap has its own difficulties. They have to be able to justify the extra hours to your satisfaction..

tfi racing

iTrader: (2)

If it looks the way you want it,runs perfectly and performs to your expectations,60 hours may be reasonable.However as soon as it was apparent the job would take a lot more time than quoted,they should have had a discussion with you,blind siding someone with a bill more than double their quote is not cool...

Spaceboy1980

Every bit this, I couldn't agree any more.

Strokedluxury

First, let me say, I'm a college student that saved up for my LQ4, ported heads, cam kit, headers, and my $925 harness lol. Also when i say he, i mean the owner of the shop, the swap specialist is a good guy. But to answer your question, it doesn't breakdown the charges, Ill request specifics as to what the labor covers.

At this point, according to my lawyer he's attempting theft by extortion. because I told him my budget for this. Yet he went way over with no explanation or communication. It's been a headache. Had my car for 7 months so far. Going weeks without any updates, returned calls, or contact. And whenever ill threaten to get my car, he'd go on about the bill, and i didnt want to pay for incomplete work.

I've caught him saying things such as the engine won't start because its out of time. And when asking if he checked the injectors and coils, his reply was" I do this for a living, i checked everything and I have to disassemble the front end". However, when asking the mechanic himself, he told me that he wired the coils backwards and that was the issue lol. I could go all day about the inconsistency between the owner and the mechanic, all of which leads towards making me pay more, and I have all this in text messages as proof. I Spoke to my lawyer and im hoping to avoid litigation.

Nevertheless, im looking at 7000 to drop an engine, change the fuel pump, and regulator and connect the engine harness. I know a bit more goes into it, but not by much. When installing my cammed LT1 after it's build, I installed the headers and accessories on the stand and dropped both the engine and trans in all at once. It seems as if he pulled that labor number out of the air. I cant imagine losing my car due to storage fees and a hugely blown budget, after building my first engine from the ground up. Sorry for the Rant!

trozfan

Having worked at a hot rod shop in the past, I can say that with custom work the hours can add up real quick. Sometimes what initially seems like a straightforward job can become much more involved. I think his initial estimate was a little low, but I also think what he ended up with seems high. Somewhere in the middle sounds more accurate. Either way he should have informed you that things were going over and he needed to get a go ahead from you before he continued. As far as your next course of action- it would all depend on what you had in writing to begin the work, and if/when he informed you of overages. If you have a rock solid upfront price then you are in good shape in a court case. If you only had an estimate to start with then things can become a battle of two sides. If you have nothing in writing then you are pretty much screwed. You could pay him the amount and then take his business to small claims to get some money back, but that may be a hard case to prove. Or you can let your car sit there for an untold amount of time while you guys battle it out for months. My strongest advice would be to have a serious sit down with the owner and come to a compromise with the bill. Neither one of you wants to deal with the court hassle. Have him knock a bunch of hours off, and sign a payment plan with him if you can't swing it all at once. The situation sucks all around. My bosses at the hot rod shop where crooks and unfortunately there is a lot of that in the automotive industry. Good luck.

JoeNova

Usually takes me 30 hours to do a swap.
I make my own harness from a stock one, and do a fuel injection conversion from a carb fuel system. I replace head bolts, head gaskets, cam, valve springs, oil pan, water pump gaskets, front main seal, etc, as well as install electric fans.

I also do not own a lift (which would save me a couple of hours), so for him to say it took 60 hours is a bit much.

Strokedluxury

Thank you so much for uour advice, and you are right.

Strokedluxury

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I purchased a custom plug n play harness to keep them from having to rack up hours messing with wiring, plus the engine was completely rebuilt before dropping it off. I did everything to make the swap a Drop in for them with the exception of the fuel system. Which is why I feel im basically being robbed. Right now he won't respond to my calls or text, so I'll have to make a road trip to his shop. Other B body owners who've taken the same route has done the swap in a weekend. Couple guys I personally know have 10 hours into it. Which is why i was ok with 20 hours give or take. But 60 hours to drop an engine in, and change the regulator and fuel pump is way excessive. Like you guys said, if he ran into a problem that took 40 hours to figure out, I should have known. Thanks for you guys insight. I will now work on my car myself from now on. Tried to save some time, and got myself a huge headache.

JoeNova

If I cut out harness and engine work, I can have it done in less than 18 hours. That still includes fuel system, electric fans, accessories, mounting, exhaust, and tune.

He's really taking you for a ride. Working on your own car is a good idea.

cookseyb

Life Lesson Number 1, "If it isn't written down and signed it don't exist" This, thanks to our friends in the legal profession, is what we have come down to. No longer is your word your bond and folks like you are dealing with take advantage of that. Work out a payment plan(in writing) with him then take out a ad in your local paper and let everybody know what Pond Scum he is. Also you need to report him to the BBB in your area.

Strokedluxury

You're right, Im gonna see to it, that he pays for this! He's worse than Pond Scum, he's not worth the steam off my **** lol! Heard an Irish guy say that, and it was the funniest thing ever! Thanks again to everyone!

Pop N Wood

iTrader: (1)

You can't compare what a bunch of guys do in their garage to what a professional has to do in his shop. Sorry, you just can't.

This question has been asked 100 times over. Read around on multiple forums. Ask people who actually do this sort of work. I'm afraid your expectations were unrealistic going in.

You hired a lawyer and now you are surprised he won't answer your calls?

Most custom shops I know won't install customer supplied parts. Because that way they have no control over surprises like a custom harness having the coils wired backwards. Most reputable shops won't give a firm quote on work they have never done before. You aren't getting a brake job on a Toyota minivan, you are having a motor from another era installed in an old car. Stuff is going to come up, issues will need to be addressed, all of that takes time. These forums are full of people dealing with seemingly minor issues with their swaps. Keep in mind if it is as easy and straight forward as you say than why didn't you do it?

Not trying to be an ***, but I've read enough of these conversations that I can really feel for the shop owners. Maybe this guy is a total dirt bag, I'm not seeing it first hand.

Good luck whatever you do.

JoeNova

I spent years building engines and speccing combos for automotive magazines.

I promise the work that comes out of my 2-car attached garage is better than what comes out of any of the local shops around me.

If anything, having a lift and unlimited tools should make it much easier.
For a shop to claim 60 hours worth of labor is beyond my comprehension.

truckdoug

iTrader: (25)

every rod shop I have ever dealt with has gladly used my supplied parts (of course they are much happier to make some margin on stuff they sell, so I do that when I can)

and they have been incredibly clear on the scope of the work they were to do, and spelled it out on the service order. I usually pay half down, on a credit card so I have some leverage.

if they can't itemize what was done beyond "put the motor and stuff in" it means they arent tracking labor properly and are pretty fly-by nite. amateur hour.

$7000 is my neck of the woods is still small claims court. council is nice but not necessary.
file a claim and don't send them a penny. Him selling off your property would be looked upon poorly by the court.

quick fyi, a verbal agreement is as good as any legal document in most property cases. only specific types of transaction require written contracts. if homie said 24 hours labor and you didnt agree to changes in that number, THAT is your case.

sources: wife is a know-it-all (lawyer) and i been ****** with cars for 25 years


let me offer some more advice bro. don;t let this thing consume you. I've been in protracted legal battles and the stress of a just a couple grand is incredible. Don't put your life on hold as this **** tends to drag out.

good luck

Pop N Wood

iTrader: (1)

I've read enough of your posts that I can't imagine how you would deal with a customer telling you how to trouble shoot an auto related problem.

Quality of work isn't the issue. Indemnity and managing customer expectations is. If you guys can't see the difference between banging something out in your garage and running a real business with taxes and government rules and drunk employees and difficult customers and the constant risk of getting sued than there is no point in talking about it.

Look, I don't know any more about this particular instance than any of you guys trying to talk tough. What I can tell you is get the lawyers involved and you will lose any chance at a quick solution and just prolong the misery. I would be doing everything in my power to try and work it out with the shop first.

60 hours, hell I have more than 60 hours invested just planning my swap.

Yeah, report him to the BBB. That will bend him over the barrel.

MorePSI

What do you have in writing of any kind between you and the shop you're dealing with? There should be some kind of written service order detailing what was to be done and the price to be paid. Proving a verbal agreement becomes difficult unless you can get the other person to come right out and say that was the original agreement. Generally I've found everyone has a hazy memory when it comes to verbal contracts later on if things go south so I follow up any phone call or conversation with an email detailing what was said and agreed upon with the pretense of "my memory isn't perfect so this is to make sure we're both on the same page". Not saying you couldn't get a badass lawyer that could do something for you but lawyers aren't free and depending on exact costs you may not come out ahead at all.

Source: Not a lawyer but I've dealt with many contracts in the hundreds of thousands of dollars range with the occasional issue of time, money, or scope (sometimes all three) and that's been my experience.

Strokedluxury

I understand, and I would have attempted this had it not been winter and promised a two week turn around. If I can pay 1500.00 and not do the work in the cold and focus on my engineering coursework, why not pay it. And if the engine was going in a minivan from toyota I would expect this. However, if the engine drops in the exact same place as the LT1 would, and used a factory plug n play harness then I do not expect anyone to re-invent the wheel. The only custom work was the DBW pedal. I can understand that things come up, and he may have had to fix some things. Which is why I did not expect a 10 hour turn around like the other impala guys are doing. I was ok with a quote that was 2.5x what the other guys were doing. But, if you can think of anything so involved that someone would work open to close for a week and a half on my car then I would understand. I mean, if it was being done in a JDM nissan, i'd expect as much. Also I haven't threatened him at all with the lawyer, i just decided to talk to one.

Strokedluxury

Thanks so much, I feel the same way. It doesn't make sense that someone basically worked Open to Close for a week and a half on dropping an engine in, and plugging up a harness. I know its a bit more involved than that, but not by much on a car that was one year away from getting the engine.