Sway Tale

Weight of my LS setup in different stages

Lift Plate - 9 lbs

Victor JR with 4150 throttle body, fuel rails, fuel lines etc. - 21lbs

Iron Block 4.8 LR4 - 540 lbs
This is fully dressed from front to back, clutch kit, crank pulley, alternator, water manifold, exhaust manifolds, exhaust crossover, motor mounts, catch cans, coilpacks, not including the intake manifold. I pull the engine out this way

Iron Block 4.8 LR4 bare long block - 425 lbs
That is with coilpacks and wires

Aluminum Block 6.0 LS2 bare long block with oil pan - 302 lbs
with crank pulley, valve covers, rear seal cover, aftermarket oil pan but no valley cover


Some pictures of weights, took some pictures while i was taking accessories off

Lift Plate and chain


Vic Jr manifold with everything on it



Fully dressed as in car









Minus exhaust manifolds


Minus clutch and pressure plate


Minus Flywheel


Minus adapter plate, alternator


bare longblock



bare iron block 4.8 with bare crank and chain sprocket



almost bare 6.0 aluminum block with bare crank (has rear seal cover, crank sprocket, crank pulley bolt and 2 knock sensors)


Update:

Aluminum LS2, bare long block with crank pulley but without oil pan or rear cover



LS2, Bare long block with crank pulley and Sikky oil pan



LS2 long block with crank pulley, subaru clutch and flywheel

Sway Tale

Rod Bolts/bearings:
The OEM GM stuff is really good.
If you want to install rod bolts because you think you need them then get new OEM GM rod bolts.
If you are thinking peace of mind or I want to rev high (up to 7,500rpm) then get new OEM GM rod bolts.
Then get an angle gauge, they are only $25-$50 on ebay. You can also just use 90 degrees instead of 85 which is easier to measure without an angle gauge.
The stock GM rod bolts actually require more torque than ARP. Thanks to denmah for that.

Do not listen to the bullshit, even though, people do get away with ARP bolts in stock rods. The GM bolts are not even expensive, I paid less for them than the ARP bolts.
I recommend just using the stock GM bolts if they have been re torqued 3 times or less and are less than 5 years old, otherwise please just get new OEM GM bolts.

The oem bolts usually fail from fatigue not RPM or power. You can just replace them with new ones from GM to avoid this. If you are breaking new OEM GM rod bolts then you are doing something wrong in your life.
If you must use ARP bolts then the rods have to be resized. That is a requirement and not a suggestion. To avoid resizing the stock rod you can just buy aftermarket performance rods that come with ARP bolts and are machined already.
I already tried the Kool-Aid. I experimented with ARP rod bolts before on other engine makes. In my car with aftermarket bearings I pulled them out after only 50 miles and the new bearings already showedwear.
I have tried before on the subaru and nissan engines, the rod bolts did not even make it to the crankshaft. They put the big end of the rod out of round by more than is acceptable by any factory service manual.


I decided to do some experimenting with ARP rod bolts.... and find out all the hype and panic. I tried out the cheap arp bolts 134-6006. I did all the measuring on the L33 rods and crank.
Using CLEVITE MAHLE CB-663A I was getting bearing clearance of 0.0021" - 0.0023". With oem used bearings I got 0.0017" - 0.0019".
So I decided to just slap all this into the LM4 without checking any clearances, sounds like a disaster waiting to happen EDIT: and it did, the motor would knock at 4,000 to 4,500 rpm....I put back the stock bearing and bolts and the knock went away....







How I have to modify the pilot bearing to work with the subaru input shaft






RDE chain guide for early LS gen III, Katech C5R chain (nothing special except a KA emblem), Improved Racing Oil scraper (very nice piece), Melling 10926, F-body pickup tube






I put engine grease on the chain and sprockets(gears?) to make installation easier (helps the chain stick to the gear) , well that caused a panic because it made noise against the chain guide because it was so tacky.


LM4s in the Trailblazer have the horrible AWD oil pan but what I forgot was they also don't have a provision drilled out in the block for a dipstick. I put the engine into the car forgetting this and had to pull it out to drill a new hole. The drill bit broke so that was a fun time....





Cam motion camshaft and double valve springs being installed



















Dropped the engine in

Sway Tale

Here is a clip of the exhaust sound on the L33
this is with the stock cam

Sway Tale

Don't put ARP bolts on stock rods (Continuation)

so this happened again....which doesn't take more than 1-2 hours at this point











This is how the bearings look with 40-50 miles on them with ARP rod bolts:




The crank actually has no damage on it, hard to tell from the photo because its covered in oil smudges.



Then the engine went back in with the original oem bearings and rod bolts I threw in the garbage.....OK well not really. I had a feeling that the ARP rod bolts would cause a problem so I saved all the oem stuff. What surprised me was that you can get away with swapping in bad parts and then swapping back. I was getting audible knock (with the ARP bolts) above 4k rpm and going WOT trying to break something and I couldn't, swapping back the original parts fixed the knock problem and I couldn't even find damage.....

Sway Tale

The LFA I bought as a "core" for 400 bucks didn't have any damage on the rods or crank. The junkyard was selling it as a high mileage bottom end knock engine and I had a feeling that I needed to buy it. I was right...it was just an AFM lifter collapsed and that was the knocking...

The rod bearings out of the LFA, pretty good for supposedly 240,000 miles.





Rods and pistons have no damage on them, all the rings look good



In all its rusty glory, came out of an escalade or tahoe hybrid



The knocking sound, I didn't even notice it until I started comparing all of them.



No damage anywhere else


Stuff headed for the garbage pile


This reminds me of the subaru engine, similar problem on the camshaft sprockets but one difference. On the Subaru its a 10mm hex on each of the 4 sprockets that always strip. On this LS I broke 3 sockets instead and couldn't get the bit out of the bolts. Grinder to the rescue...




So I decided to clean it up and get it ready for an LS2 N/A build. Don't pay attention to the surface finish, I have a way to lap the deck later. I want to send out the 243 heads to AI for porting but I don't know if I will get to it this year.

Sway Tale

I put the LM4 back in the car but I decided to try an LS9 cam .The cam motion cam from my L33 is too much cam on the LM4 because of the lower compression and "shitty heads", I just can't word this better.

I already had all the parts to do the swap and the cam is only $130 and has a stock idle so why not. The LM4 doesn't serve a purpose other than a trial engine until I finish the LS2 build or get another L33.




The magnet trick for swapping cams is ideal






I couldn't tell if cam tool in the picture would work and I didn't want to drop a lifter and have to pull the heads . I thought I would try the magnet trick.

I still don't trust the cam tool.


LS9 cam vs L33 cam



I thought I would try the long runner manifold again, the original issue I had with the LS6 manifold was clearance for the intake next to the firewall and the heater hoses. Now the heater hoses run in the opposite direction and I took a wild guess based on pictures that this would work.

Only downside is the FAST 102 is 1.5 inches taller than the LS6

Sway Tale

Pistons:
Used engines will have taper/barrel shape wear on the cylinder liners. You can ball hone it lightly to clean it up but that may make it worse. Stock pistons will usually have excessive wear on the skirts and some of my junkyard engines I bought had a piston to wall clearance of 0.0050" - 0.0070". Piston ring gap can be as bad as 0.090" at the top of the cylinder and it will cause ridiculous oil consumption.
New pistons and rings as OE replacements are available from Mahle but they cost as much as a used long block. New rings will usually solve the oil consumption issues and the ring gap with worn liners is usually perfect for boost.
​​​Get new rings and measure gap at the middle and top of the liner. If your new rings have more than 0.030" gap (anywhere on the liner) you will have an oil guzzler, the block will need to be bored to the next size by a machine shop. Gaps below 0.024 work very well, even for boost. Anything below 0.015" ring gap is too tight even for naturally aspirated.
​​​​​

VVT pistons use different ring set. They have 1.2mm top rings. The valve reliefs are useless for non VVT performance camshafts.

Use ATF/diesel fuel to clean off sludge. Use the old rings to clean out the carbon in the ring lands. Just spin the rings installed on the piston and force the ring gap to pick up the carbon. It is not necessary to completely remove the carbon. On pump gas you will have plenty of carbon on top of the piston right away. Methanol and water injection will clean up the pistons, E85 also works, but this only works while the engine is running. Using ATF instead of motor oil and lightly driving the car with low load will also clean, all you're trying to accomplish is to get the ATF hot but not get it into the combustion chamber. ATF is hydraulic fluid with a very low viscosity (around 5-15 depending on the type) thus it shears easy but keeps everything coated and clean. The only part of the piston that needs to be clean is the the ring lands, skirts, and pin bores.

Most LS pistons have coating on the top ring land bore.
Comparison pics of GEN III and GEN IV rods and pistons

5.3 GEN IV (L33) on left, 6.0 LFA on right



GEN III vs GEN IV


LM4, LR4, L33, LFA




Not a single one has a broken ringland

Sway Tale

Some changes happened. I decided to go with a bigger radiator for now, the small one had a hard time controlling coolant temperature. It would take too long to lower temps. Eventually the radiator will have to be rear mount as I just don't have the space to run one in the front.

The FAST 102 angles the throttle body upwards so now the 4" intake can clear the firewall but that also means the hood has to be changed drastically. There was no space to mount the intake air temperature sensor so I drilled the nose of the air filter and stuck it there (ala grommet style). I had to move the battery to the trunk because radiant heat from the header was melting it.

The radium fuel rails are not plug and play with the FAST 102**yes they are if you use the long style injectors**. They are meant for stock intakes but using injector spacers and washers under the mounting brackets to the manifold they do work with the shorty LS3/LS7 injectors**.

Another interesting thing..only Earl's steam port adapters seem to fit with the FAST 102 (other than the GM pipes). I am also experimenting with a restrictor fitting for the steam port hose to coolant expansion tank and heater core feed line.

Sway Tale

Engine ECU:
$1000 or less options
If you are using a manual transmission, and do not require OBD2 then do not waste your time with the OE GM ECUs and then having to purchase EFI live or HPtuners.
The edelbrock ProFlo 4 was plug and play. You can just throw the computer into the engine bay and plug in the harness. You don't need a PC to tune it or program. You need an android phone with Bluetooth. Tuning on it is very basic and does not offer many options. Has auto tune which you can adjust, turn on/off. There is no tables to tune, only basic interpolation points. That is actually an advantage when you KISS. It however is not able to control an automatic transmission. Uses a wasted spark setup so you should be able to run anything with this.

AEM Infinity Series 3 is another option but does not support DBW throttle body or Variable Timing. Easy to setup but very hard to master. Offers auto tune and many possibilities for engine control. It does however require making a harness yourself. Also does not control the transmission. Universal, can be used on a variety of different engines.

Megasquirt. Offers more than the AEM. Does everything. Requires help to setup first time. Difficult to learn. Not for everyone. Limitless possibilities.

If you do need OBD2 the GM "Crate", "E-ROD" kit or whatever its called is an easy option for an all in one package. For $1500 it comes with wiring harness, ecu, pedal and it has specific versions to each crate engine part # GM sells.
Its not always worth it to buy an LS3 camaro drop out for $7,000 with no way to verify condition/miles while a brand new fully dressed LS3 is $7,500 and the ecu control is another $1,500.

Alternator:
2 Wire DR44G will let you control how much voltage you want the alternator to put out. You can actually change the load the alternator puts on the engine by doing so.
Very useful in my opinion to be able to see the load the alternator puts on the engine from idle to redline and how that affects things like fuel trims and IAC%. You can also prevent voltage drop if you have high amperage draw components such as electric power steering, electric water pump, intercooler pump, etc.
Great sticky about how to control this alternator in the conversions & hybrids forum.
This alternator will put out 13.4 if not connected to anything.

Tach Signal converter:
Dakota Digital makes some useful items to get different things to work together
I am using an SGI-8E. It takes in my Edelbrock Pro Flo 4 tachometer signal, which gives out an 8 cylinder signal, and outputs a signal my 4 cylinder Subaru tachometer displays. You can adjust it in small increments as well for fine tuning.
You can use it for 1-8 cylinders for both input and output.

Gauges and Instrument Clusters:
You can make almost any cluster work with something. Most instrument clusters on passenger vehicles before 2008 are analog and all you have to do is connect a sensor to them. Most of the time you can find a converter or way to calibrate the signal so the needles display it correctly. Some clusters are digital but they require an analog input and convert to digital using an internal processor.

CAN (or LIN) based clusters are usually the biggest pain in the ***. You have to either figure out the data strings it is using or wait until someone else does. CAN/J1939 isn't anything special other than a way to group a lot of data all at once on only two wires. In fact 18 wheeler trucks have been using this since 1997 and they are pretty basic as far as vehicles go. J1939 is standardized for trucks and the data strings are mostly defined. Some OEMs like to use proprietary CAN data because they are ******** and the only solution is to sit there, log it, and figure it out.

I think 1991 was the first year for widespread use of J1708 and its about as exciting as a floppy disk...two wires....basic data signals like speed, tach, oil pressure, coolant temp, etc. and that is still being used to this day. The reason that I mention this is because the technology in new cars is not actually new.

On to the point. AEM makes a very versatile display called CD-5 and CD-7. The numbers denote screen size in inches. It can be used to replace or supplant your instrument cluster.
The display uses CAN BUS. They also have 2 CAN channels. That just means you can simulataneously display CAN data sources that are not compatible with each other (ie; CAN BUS with different speeds; AEMnet is 500kb/s, Edelbrock is 1M/bit)

You can also connect AEM CD to an OBD2 ECU (Generally 2008 and up) and/or a standalone such as AEM, Edelbrock, Holley, etc.
AEM has a list of supported ECUs on their website. They list which GM ECUs they support. The AEM CD can also scan CAN BUS for OBD2 PIDs in case your ecu is not defined.

I am using an AEM CD-7 to display data from my Edelbrock Pro Flo 4 standalone ecu and at the same time additional sensors I added using an AEM CAN expansion module.
Example: The PF4 has its own single wideband which is displayed on the AEM CD-7, on the same screen I have a second AEM wideband and oil temperature/oil pressure from analog sensors.

You can customize the screen to your liking. You can either choose pre-made templates or design something yourself. The design software is a bit like photoshop in terms of freedom.

ryeguy2006a

iTrader: (27)

I'd pick that GEN4 truck intake out of the garbage. They are worth some good money.

Everything else looks good, but I'm confused with all of the jumping around. Looks like you are getting to be a pro at pulling the motor out of that car though haha.

Sway Tale

I still have the Gen IV intake, that was the only thing I didn't throw out.
Trial and error is causing all the jumping around.
The first motor (L33) I bought turned out to have blown headgaskets cracked heads/worn cylinder liners.
The LM4 in it right now I bought to just get the car running again. I swapped around a bunch of things that I didn't like how they came out. The change to FAST 102 is to make the hood lower, I kept the single plane for another project.

There will be more jumping around, more than likely the radiator will move to the trunk soon.

Sway Tale

Got the car running and driving. Here is the radiator setup that I ended up using. It cools really well when moving. When stopped it heats up quick but doesn't have trouble cooling off. The radiator is just an off the shelf mishimoto 1998-2001 jeep cherokee XJ with the filler neck cutoff and an AN10 bung welded for my heater core return. I don't know why the cherokee LS swaps have so much issues with overheating, I am able to regulate temp just fine. After I added a thermostat the temp became even more stable.

Brannin Lakey

How thick is the adapter plate between the trans and engine. I have started my build and have the aluminum plate on the way to build mine. I think it should be alittle under 1.25 inches but would love to know what yours was

Sway Tale

Around 1 inch thick. It doesn't really matter how thick the plate is. Even if you cut and weld the bell housing and use an LS4 pulley that's barely 1.5 inches shorter than my setup. Still doesn't give you decent hood or radiator clearance.

mordinu

did you get a mounting plate (between the trans/motor) custom made? or is there one you would suggest.

Sway Tale

Pulled out the LM4 due to excessive oil consumption and smoking. Installed the LR4.....which had a spun bearing apparently. I went back to the single plane intake.













Spun bearing in LR4 on Rod #1, the shells were on top of each other. I actually drove the car like that for a day, it wouldn't make noise until it had some load.






So all 4 used engines I bought are broken. The L33 had two worn liners, the LM4 all the liners are worn almost to the next size, the LR4 had a spun bearing, and the LFA had a collapsed lifter.

So I am rebuilding the LFA into an LS2 at the moment.

ring gap looks ok, liners have some wear...



Taking out the cam bearings



Cam bearings are shot...



Main bearings are shot too....



Installing new cam bearings



Moving onto measuring the mains





1. OEM mains out of the LFA
2. KING HP
3. CLEVITE/MAHLE H

Sway Tale

Progress on rebuilding the LFA/LS2

Disassembling the heads.


Before cleanup


Tried cleaning with diesel, its not very effective on carbon. I used some MEK/Carb Cleaner and it still couldn't dissolve all the carbon. I didn't want to waste too much time on it so its a light cleaning.


Intake valve after using wire wheel to clean it up


Exhaust valve after cleanup. After seeing this, some lapping is neccessary even though it may not help.


Before cleanup














After lapping head surface and cleaning, still need to lap the valves...





The factory surface finish wasn't this good

Sway Tale

More engine assembly nonsense





LPE DoD tower plugs

























Got it running before the snow. Too bad though, I used way too much ring gap and it turns out the heads were cracked and leaking coolant internally.

Sway Tale

Unfortunately the LS2 started guzzling oil after 2,000 miles...so I'm rebuilding yet another engine.

This is from when the LS2 was first rebuilt and was making power. Had some snow on the test lot.

Sway Tale

LS and clutches.....

I originally bought a single disc South Bend Endurance Stage 3 endurance clutch rated for 615 lb/ft torque.
It worked great on a 5.3 that was down on power (blown). It also worked great on the 6.0 until I went WOT.
The single disc STi clutch is only 9.4 inches in diameter so I am not at all surprised.

I was in a rush to get the car running again so I thought an ACT 6 puck single should work. Yeah.....OK! It fell apart in a month.
It was not my choice to get sprung. Unsprung was not in stock anywhere and I couldn't wait.


I did run an 11.63 in the 1/4 with this clutch. I also managed to get to 165mph without a hood so this clutch was fine for 2 days on the road course.









For a month I was trying to figure out how I could run a multi disc setup.
LS based setups wouldn't work because they are too large in diameter and my starter is on the transmission side.
Exedy multi plate clutches use too shallow of a flywheel and use the stock pull mechanism, that won't work either.
I found three companies that offered something I could use.

PowerTrain Technologies sells button flywheels (no ring gear) for the LS, clutch discs for many different splines (subaru being one of them), many different clutch hubs to choose from.
I could have used their flywheel and a separate starter flexplate or a reverse mount ring gear. PTT, however, was not interested in making a custom flywheel or flexplate.
Their hydraulic release bearing (HRB) also required some custom work to fit the subaru transmission.
I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how I could squeeze a triple or twin using this setup. I really liked what they had to offer and called a few companies inquiring about custom parts to make it work.

So I started browsing their competitors.....Quarter Master!
QM offered a bolt in HRB and many different clutch options. QM's STi clutch used 8 legs instead of 6, and their HRB didn't list dimensions. At $600-$750 for just the HRB....I didn't get very far with them either.....

Then I remember there is another company......Clutch Masters
I ordered a bolt in HRB they sell for the STI. It mounts right in front of the input shaft seal in place of the original retainer. I ordered one to try it out and see how it would fit.


Ok, awesome, it works and I have hella space for the clutch stack height.













Now what? I called CM and told them I need a clutch and flywheel setup. Clutch Masters was the only place that I called and they said: "OK, no problem. What exactly do you need?"
I told CM, STI clutch for 600+ torque and LS crank bolt pattern with different height. Two weeks later and the typical sum one pays for a twin disc setup, I had a custom flywheel and a twin thick disc 7.25" clutch.
















I swapped the clutch master at the same time from a 11/16 to a 5/8. I really did not need to but now my clutch pedal is lighter than the accelerator pedal.

This is the old 11/16 master and pull fork slave



Subaru naturally aspirated stick shift cars generally came with a 5/8" master, they used a lighter pressure plate and a push style fork. The master cylinder diameter is relative to pedal effort and required pedal travel.
Most 7.25" clutches require a 5/8" to 3/4" master.

General reference:
Larger MC diameter = heavier pedal but pedal moves less to disengage
Smaller MC diameter = lighter pedal but pedal moves more to disengage
There are also many other factors such as an adjustable pedal, pedal stop, pressure plate, diaphragm springs. etc.

The thing that looks like a **** on the bottom is a delay valve when you release the clutch.
It doesn't actually help with anything except making you look like a fool that doesn't know how to drive stick shift. I removed it years ago.
The MC I ordered specifically from a 2002 Impreza 2.5RS, that was the only year the casting didn't come with the delay valve or port.
Also, strangely, japanese car MCs made by Nabtesco use JIS (metric) threads and bolts but an SAE size for diameter. Nissan is another example.


The CM FX725 works very well with a 6.0 LS. It does require shifting quick to avoid jerking, think motorcycle.