The AWD LSX STi
06-22-2022, 02:34 PM
#121
Your photos aren't showing up
06-22-2022, 02:42 PM
#123
Now I see them.
The amount of work you put into this car is still super impressive.
The amount of work you put into this car is still super impressive.
06-24-2022, 11:23 AM
#124
On The Tree
Thread Starter
ImgBB is still being laggy, any ideas for better image hosting?
It be like that these days.
Sneak peak, ain't saying nothing yet
First motor plate didn't have enough material to use my alternator with it. Pic is with both plates stacked on top of each other.
Ignore the incoherent drawings, I was trying to mark interference with things like the hood and headlights
I needed to make the mounting removable.. I am considering making some motor mounts next time for the plate...
I used Rivet Nuts. Time will tell.
Two M10 bolts on the side of the frame rail, One on top of the frame rail, One M10 bolt and nut to clamp brackets to each other and Three M10 bolts and nuts to hold the motor plate to each side. I think this is too much hardware, I think it could have been done with M8 or only two bolts per bracket
Ignore the M6 and M8 bolts, those were bolt already on the frame rail so I had to play tic-tac-toe with the drill.
Some more cutting for clearance and it will be finished. I need to find a plate like this one but taller. Maybe its worth asking ICT Billet to make me custom ones?
Made the bolts a super tight fit, I am curious how that will work out. I also didn't leave much space for me to change the height/angle of the driveline. There is about 1/2"-3/4" of slop available for adjustment..
It be like that these days.
Sneak peak, ain't saying nothing yet
First motor plate didn't have enough material to use my alternator with it. Pic is with both plates stacked on top of each other.
Ignore the incoherent drawings, I was trying to mark interference with things like the hood and headlights
I needed to make the mounting removable.. I am considering making some motor mounts next time for the plate...
I used Rivet Nuts. Time will tell.
Two M10 bolts on the side of the frame rail, One on top of the frame rail, One M10 bolt and nut to clamp brackets to each other and Three M10 bolts and nuts to hold the motor plate to each side. I think this is too much hardware, I think it could have been done with M8 or only two bolts per bracket
Ignore the M6 and M8 bolts, those were bolt already on the frame rail so I had to play tic-tac-toe with the drill.
Some more cutting for clearance and it will be finished. I need to find a plate like this one but taller. Maybe its worth asking ICT Billet to make me custom ones?
Made the bolts a super tight fit, I am curious how that will work out. I also didn't leave much space for me to change the height/angle of the driveline. There is about 1/2"-3/4" of slop available for adjustment..
06-28-2022, 07:58 PM
#127
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Motor mount ideas...maybe use the adapter as a midplate that bolts to the subrame instead. I think I am ready to make bolt in kits now.
stock subaru motor mount RH side , but alas LH side does not have space for it...
So i lost my **** and pulled apart the rear end. It was due for inspection anyway. Mostly I just wanted to pull the gas tank and redo my fuel system.
Surprise, plenty of rust to go around. Oh well I have spare fuel tanks...I have several spare chassis at this point. I think I even have a rear half cut body lying around somewhere.
blown up/mock up S475 with a 96mm turbine:
A box strapped, sealed and tape on the outside, what could it be?
after 3 more layers of different packaging materials, a turbine housing clamp and a T4 gasket
Its a T4 twin scroll 1.25 AR turbine housing that actually fits Borg turbos with a 96mm wheel and its a lot smaller than the T6 monstrosity. Yes its chinesium but its cheap, fits correctly, uses 1/2 marmon (regular T4, 7875) outlet flange, and its $170. next to it is a vband/vband housing that doesn't actually fit the real S400 cores
the T4 is a bit taller but inlet flange is shorter, the T4 outlet is slightly longer though
Last edited by Sway Tale; 06-28-2022 at 08:20 PM.
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wretched73 (06-29-2022)
07-05-2022, 01:27 PM
#128
On The Tree
Thread Starter
So this happened
Then that
I wanted to change some bushings in the rear suspension, remove the fuel tank, install some.....more capable fuel items and make the trunk floor flat. (hint hint; rear heat exchanger)
The fuel tank turned out to be rusted and there was a bunch of rust and rot in various spots. I did some sloppy work and cut/grinded most of it off.
I had to fix the quarter panel arches as well, they didn't have much paint left from the wheel rubbing the inside and the extra heavy roll on the flare.
Yes, I have gaping holes all over the car from the rust. I am not repairing anything non-structural. I wasted an entire day on repairing a spot where someone broke a bolt and decide to weld the sway bar bracket to the chassis. The shells are cheap, its less work for me to buy one with good paint and no rust. I am not spending 2 months repairing the body on this and getting dirt in the clear coat.
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wretched73 (07-05-2022)
07-14-2022, 02:42 PM
#129
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Don't use tape or glue inside the fuel tank or any other dumb **** inside the fuel tank for that matter. Some types of heat shrink tubing will fall apart in gasoline, best to test first. Fuel is a low conductor of electricity (not enough to require insulation) so as long as your terminals are not touching there is no reason to put tape on them.
I have no need for a fuel cell but my fuel tank was starting to rot. I grabbed a spare tank that was in good shape and threw some epoxy/clear coat right over the stock rubber paint. I am cross posting this on Nastisoc, most people don't know how a fuel tank actually functions.
The GC and GD impreza (even the base model) fuel tank is very fancy for an economy car....you can even say it puts some performance cars to shame. In contrast other manufacturers have similar fuel tanks but they don't work as well...Lancer Evolution is a great example of a similar but poorly designed fuel tank.
It may look like an ordinary steel (Ni-Terne) saddle type tank. The stock Fuel level sensors are wired in series....for the boasters talking about losing fuel pressure on long right hand sweepers at the track.....you can wire them separately to your logger and/or EMS and realize the tank is just plain empty. I have never had trouble with fuel sloshing in the tank. I also don't run the tank down to empty, the lowest I will go is 1.5 gallons before dry, 2 gallons if its on the street, 3 gallons if its ethanol or a highly oxygenated fuel. There are better areas of the car to cut weight.
Note the height the valves and hangers in relation to the fuel tank and each other.
Fuel Pump hanger, I don't think the surge box came on anything other than the STI. The fuel pump hanger goes into the RH side of the fuel tank. There is also a Fuel temp sensor behind the hanger.
The fuel pump hanger sits inside this baffle on the RH side of the tank. Earlier models come with smaller baffles.
2004 and earlier impreza will have drain plugs on both sides of the fuel tank. Drain plugs on the bottom of the fuel tank started disappearing around 2005. I have even had a stock fuel tank that came with a drain plug on only one side, I am not sure what year I pulled it from.
I am not using the stock hanger, Dual Walbro 450 hanger with an upgraded venturi jet pump for higher flow
Radium stuff accommodates the stock float/level and temp sensors
LH side hanger houses the LH side fuel level sensor/float and the pickup for the crossover to the venturi jet pump in the fuel pump hanger. You could technically just run two pumps from each side of the tank this way but it would be redundant as the jet pump already does this.
As usual with subarus everything was rusting so when I painted this piece I had to cut the wiring off. I used M5 x 0.8, 25mm length studs, flat lock nuts, PTFE sleeve washers to make some posts. You can use PTFE to insulate electricity from metal as well as fuel. This is exactly the setup radium uses except mine is metric. The SLEEVED washer is required, it will prevent the stud from touching the edge of the hole on the plate, it is unrealistic to try to center the studs on plain washers. The washers I used were 0.064" total height including the flange, the washer flange was exactly half that; 0.032" in height. The hanger plate is very thin and a thicker washer would probably not have worked. Use a multi-meter to check for lack of continuity between your wiring and the plate. This setup is universal and not just specific to fuel tanks, it will work as a bulkhead connection.
Example of the sleeved washer, you need two for both sides of the plate. The one pictured is slightly deformed, I wanted to see how much force would take to deform it. I ended up stripping the nut/stud instead. PTFE FTW
Its a bit tricky to get lock nuts to setup on a stud. You can just use two hex nuts jammed against each other to keep the stud from spinning while threading on a lock nut.
There are lots of different ways to do this. That is hot glue. Doesn't need anything on the inside, the terminals do not move on their own. However, PTFE will crush and deform if you over tighten it. The sleeved washes I used help prevent this but...even tight on the lock washers you are able to spin the studs with some force on the wiring terminal. This is not a scenario that will happen and regular plastic connectors are more susceptible to damage than the force require to rotate the wires on the studs. This is caused by PTFE being slippery. Using serrated nuts or extra washer will just deform the PTFE and cause more issues.
The solution is very simple, the stud will not get loose on its own, even from spinning, because of the lock nuts. Just use some heat shrink tubing on your terminals so they don't short out. Test to make sure or check if its fuel resistant. Raychem DR-25 is fuel resistant, but many other much cheaper tubing exist. This will help when installing and removing to prevent shorts. The Jurassic Park/Talladega Nights scenario in your head will also be avoided. Manufacturers do more sketchy **** than this and no one complains. Remember that Takata air bag recall that was shooting metal into peoples' throats upon deployment?
Anyways back to the fire. I made a block off plate for the EVAP/charcoal canister vent. It sits lower than the tank vents and has a diaphragm on top to limit the amount vapor flow. It is completely useless if you no longer have EVAP components and will not vent correctly....it actually won't vent at all because it has a sprung rollover valve and a pressure differential diaphragm on top of it (think wastegate/blow off valve). It is now a completely useless hole in my fuel tank, OBD 1 vehicles do not have this at all. GC chassis fuel tanks are otherwise the same but they are shorter in height and hold about 2 gallons of fuel less due to the size difference.
I used some aluminum I had laying around. The thickness does matter, 1/4" is really thick and more than enough, 1/8" is too thin, 3/16" is just enough. The gasket for this hole goes around the base of the stud and so does the EVAP valve. Drill the holes for the plate to slide over the base of the studs and use some washers. Alternatively you can counter bore the holes to avoid using washers but that is extra fancy.. even for me.
The fuel tank pressure sensor is no longer useful or necessary, the port can be connected to the EVAP valve vent control port instead of blocking the holes. This is more reliable than trying to install caps since you just use fuel vapor hose which resists cracking and drying out from fuel vapor. Note, fuel vapor hose and fuel injection hose is not the same thing.
Molykote 111 is meant for electrical connections and keeping water out of rubber seals. Its highly overpriced though and can be substituted with some plain grease.
The only bad part about the Radium hangers. You have to install the float midway through inserting the hanger into the pump, which is not that bad....What's dumb is the screws for the float are stainless and non magnetic. It surprising they haven't developed a simple way to clip in the float instead or supply you with magnetic bolts....you know some way to prevent dropping 4mm diameter screws into your fuel tank. The Radium hangers are a hassle to assemble/install in other makes and models as well, FD3S RX7 being the worst.
Top of radium hanger, it is sold with the stud/PTFE setup and allows use of AN fittings for the fuel plumbing.
The only connections I need on the fuel tank are for the fuel level. The fuel pump triggers will go straight from the ECM to relays off battery +, No need for the stock fuel pump wiring either, it runs off the main EFI ignition relay and routes to outside the car from under the seats. Can be drastically simplified by just tapping into the harness at the interior plug.
I have no need for a fuel cell but my fuel tank was starting to rot. I grabbed a spare tank that was in good shape and threw some epoxy/clear coat right over the stock rubber paint. I am cross posting this on Nastisoc, most people don't know how a fuel tank actually functions.
The GC and GD impreza (even the base model) fuel tank is very fancy for an economy car....you can even say it puts some performance cars to shame. In contrast other manufacturers have similar fuel tanks but they don't work as well...Lancer Evolution is a great example of a similar but poorly designed fuel tank.
It may look like an ordinary steel (Ni-Terne) saddle type tank. The stock Fuel level sensors are wired in series....for the boasters talking about losing fuel pressure on long right hand sweepers at the track.....you can wire them separately to your logger and/or EMS and realize the tank is just plain empty. I have never had trouble with fuel sloshing in the tank. I also don't run the tank down to empty, the lowest I will go is 1.5 gallons before dry, 2 gallons if its on the street, 3 gallons if its ethanol or a highly oxygenated fuel. There are better areas of the car to cut weight.
Note the height the valves and hangers in relation to the fuel tank and each other.
Fuel Pump hanger, I don't think the surge box came on anything other than the STI. The fuel pump hanger goes into the RH side of the fuel tank. There is also a Fuel temp sensor behind the hanger.
The fuel pump hanger sits inside this baffle on the RH side of the tank. Earlier models come with smaller baffles.
2004 and earlier impreza will have drain plugs on both sides of the fuel tank. Drain plugs on the bottom of the fuel tank started disappearing around 2005. I have even had a stock fuel tank that came with a drain plug on only one side, I am not sure what year I pulled it from.
I am not using the stock hanger, Dual Walbro 450 hanger with an upgraded venturi jet pump for higher flow
Radium stuff accommodates the stock float/level and temp sensors
LH side hanger houses the LH side fuel level sensor/float and the pickup for the crossover to the venturi jet pump in the fuel pump hanger. You could technically just run two pumps from each side of the tank this way but it would be redundant as the jet pump already does this.
As usual with subarus everything was rusting so when I painted this piece I had to cut the wiring off. I used M5 x 0.8, 25mm length studs, flat lock nuts, PTFE sleeve washers to make some posts. You can use PTFE to insulate electricity from metal as well as fuel. This is exactly the setup radium uses except mine is metric. The SLEEVED washer is required, it will prevent the stud from touching the edge of the hole on the plate, it is unrealistic to try to center the studs on plain washers. The washers I used were 0.064" total height including the flange, the washer flange was exactly half that; 0.032" in height. The hanger plate is very thin and a thicker washer would probably not have worked. Use a multi-meter to check for lack of continuity between your wiring and the plate. This setup is universal and not just specific to fuel tanks, it will work as a bulkhead connection.
Example of the sleeved washer, you need two for both sides of the plate. The one pictured is slightly deformed, I wanted to see how much force would take to deform it. I ended up stripping the nut/stud instead. PTFE FTW
Its a bit tricky to get lock nuts to setup on a stud. You can just use two hex nuts jammed against each other to keep the stud from spinning while threading on a lock nut.
There are lots of different ways to do this. That is hot glue. Doesn't need anything on the inside, the terminals do not move on their own. However, PTFE will crush and deform if you over tighten it. The sleeved washes I used help prevent this but...even tight on the lock washers you are able to spin the studs with some force on the wiring terminal. This is not a scenario that will happen and regular plastic connectors are more susceptible to damage than the force require to rotate the wires on the studs. This is caused by PTFE being slippery. Using serrated nuts or extra washer will just deform the PTFE and cause more issues.
The solution is very simple, the stud will not get loose on its own, even from spinning, because of the lock nuts. Just use some heat shrink tubing on your terminals so they don't short out. Test to make sure or check if its fuel resistant. Raychem DR-25 is fuel resistant, but many other much cheaper tubing exist. This will help when installing and removing to prevent shorts. The Jurassic Park/Talladega Nights scenario in your head will also be avoided. Manufacturers do more sketchy **** than this and no one complains. Remember that Takata air bag recall that was shooting metal into peoples' throats upon deployment?
Anyways back to the fire. I made a block off plate for the EVAP/charcoal canister vent. It sits lower than the tank vents and has a diaphragm on top to limit the amount vapor flow. It is completely useless if you no longer have EVAP components and will not vent correctly....it actually won't vent at all because it has a sprung rollover valve and a pressure differential diaphragm on top of it (think wastegate/blow off valve). It is now a completely useless hole in my fuel tank, OBD 1 vehicles do not have this at all. GC chassis fuel tanks are otherwise the same but they are shorter in height and hold about 2 gallons of fuel less due to the size difference.
I used some aluminum I had laying around. The thickness does matter, 1/4" is really thick and more than enough, 1/8" is too thin, 3/16" is just enough. The gasket for this hole goes around the base of the stud and so does the EVAP valve. Drill the holes for the plate to slide over the base of the studs and use some washers. Alternatively you can counter bore the holes to avoid using washers but that is extra fancy.. even for me.
The fuel tank pressure sensor is no longer useful or necessary, the port can be connected to the EVAP valve vent control port instead of blocking the holes. This is more reliable than trying to install caps since you just use fuel vapor hose which resists cracking and drying out from fuel vapor. Note, fuel vapor hose and fuel injection hose is not the same thing.
Molykote 111 is meant for electrical connections and keeping water out of rubber seals. Its highly overpriced though and can be substituted with some plain grease.
The only bad part about the Radium hangers. You have to install the float midway through inserting the hanger into the pump, which is not that bad....What's dumb is the screws for the float are stainless and non magnetic. It surprising they haven't developed a simple way to clip in the float instead or supply you with magnetic bolts....you know some way to prevent dropping 4mm diameter screws into your fuel tank. The Radium hangers are a hassle to assemble/install in other makes and models as well, FD3S RX7 being the worst.
Top of radium hanger, it is sold with the stud/PTFE setup and allows use of AN fittings for the fuel plumbing.
The only connections I need on the fuel tank are for the fuel level. The fuel pump triggers will go straight from the ECM to relays off battery +, No need for the stock fuel pump wiring either, it runs off the main EFI ignition relay and routes to outside the car from under the seats. Can be drastically simplified by just tapping into the harness at the interior plug.
07-14-2022, 02:54 PM
#130
On The Tree
Thread Starter
I reused some of the stock piping on the fuel tank. Its compact and its fits. I have no need to upgrade the return or crossover lines...its really not necessary until well over 1000whp, which at that point means you are ready for a fuel cell.
Changeover in fuel piping from metal to plastic seems related in the changeover from 16 bit to 32 bit DBW ecus. 2003 WRX still has rubber hose and metal fuel tank lines coated with very thick plastic. Later models around that DBW changeover had plastic fuel tubing and quick connect fittings. By MY2007 the fuel return tube on the fuel tank became a slightly smaller diamter (1mm?) than MY2002. None of that seems to have any effect and might actually be related to ensuring jet pump consistency. Also the RH side tank vent valve is missing the loop by MY2007, 2005-2006 models should still have the loop. The stock fuel tank vent valves are rollover safe. They have a large plunger and spring to close them shut in case of rollover. They are also well placed in the tank above the fuel level line and even have baffling to prevent fuel entering. Think of a cup upside down underwater.
Edit: One thing I forgot to mention which is very important. The breather vents on this tank go to a ~1/4" diameter hose and then both tee into a single 1/4" diameter hose. Obviously this is enough for a stock system that utilizes expansion through EVAP and vacuum through the intake manifold. However, please keep in mind this is not satisfactory for most high flow rate (350LPH and larger) fuel pumps. This is actually what causes pumps to fail "randomly". Modern EFI fuel systems have had fuel pump duty cycle controllers and complex EVAP systems to help alleviate fuel pressure inside the tank. OEMs also size the fuel pumps correctly for their intended application.
Older cars that were carburetor equipped, throttle body injection, and early multi port generally did not have such systems. The older vehicles generally will not have enough ventilation when converting to EFI and/or modern fuel pumps..
The example I am trying to make...There is "steam" (I need the visualization) inside the fuel tank. The "steam" is pressurized fuel vapor inside the fuel tank. The fuel pump will eventually fail from excessive pressure inside the fuel tank or the breather is unable to displace the fuel being pumped out with air fast enough without causing a vacuum. Yes, that will cause a fuel pump to fail very quickly. Fuel pumps are generally designed and constructed in such a way that they are not a wear item, even the aftermarket ones. Stop blaming certain companies for making bad fuel pumps or saying you got a dud. Typical fuel systems for a race car use -8AN through a -12AN breather(s). That's roughly under 1/2" to 3/4" for each breather. Most fuel cells will only have one breather and are usually 10 gallon capacity or less. I am planning on using two Walbro 450LPH (F90000274) fuel pumps and my breathers run 1/4" hose into a -8AN tee. It is not optimal but time will tell. I would not run the stock EVAP with a single 1/4" hose breather and two high flow pumps.
To put this in perspective:
I have one Walbro 255LPH (GSS342) and the stock fuel tank/venting/EVAP/fuel pump controller, and have had no issues. This was enough for the stock subaru turbocharged engine with four 1000cc injectors, 85% IDC, 43psi base fuel pressure, 1:1FPR
I have one Walbro 355LPH (GSS352G3) and the stock fuel tank/venting/EVAP, direct wired fuel pump, and have had no issues. This was enough for over 500WHP on 93 Octane and NATURALLY ASPIRATED, eight 35lb/hr injectors, 43-58psi base fuel pressure, 1:1FPR
Was the fuel tank venting sufficient? Probably not. Did it cause problems.....probably. I actually have an example; My fuel pump controller kept overheating and the car did not want to start in hot ambient temps. I mistakenly replaced my walbro 255LPH with a Deatschwerks 255LPH. I hardwired the fuel pump and that solved my unrelated hot start issue. After a few months the Deatschwerks fuel pump slowly died over time. The IDC% went from 60% to 90% at the same loads is when I noticed. Replaced it with a Walbro 355LPH and IDC% went back down to normal.
Do not size you fuel system for E85 requirements if plan on using non-oxygenated fuel such 93 octane, 260GT, C16.
I will go over fuel flow requirements in a later post but simply put....and these are very generous with room for overhead
Naturally Aspirated - do not use a pump larger than a 355LPH under 600whp
Turbocharged - Do not use larger than a 450LPH under 600whp. Add a second one if you are using E85 and need up to 900whp.
Check the fuel pump "max" fuel pressure, also called relief pressure/check valve pressure and compare it to your peak fuel pressure (base fuel pressure + peak boost pressure), Do not exceed this value, even as a single pump. Also factor in 10psi of fuel pressure drop/resistance for the fuel feed line. Larger fuel lines negate this...-8an feed line is really not neccesary until you start maxing out your pump with boost pressure or exceeding 900whp. Fuel feed line diameter will not help if your pump is maxed out.
These pumps have check valves and can be combined together in a dual or triple setup:
TI Automotive F90000267 also known as Walbro 465LHP is only rated for 87psi of fuel. 43psi base = 34psi of boost , 58psi base = 19psi of boost
TI Automotive F90000274 also known as Walbro 450LPH is rated for 112psi of fuel. 43psi base = 60psi of boost, 58psi base =45psi of boost
TI Automotive F90000285 also known as Walbro 525LPH is rated for 112psi of fuel. 43psi base = 60psi of boost, 58psi base =45psi of boost
This pump does not have an internal check valve and can only be run as a single pump, you can of course add an external check valve to stack these pumps
TI Automotive F90000295 also known as Walbro 535LPH does not actually have a rating but I would assume its good for 112psi. This pump is interesting because it pulls the same amperage as a 450LPH pump yet flows more. Good idea for a lower HP build using a single pump.
There is no reason to use multiple 525 Hellcat fuel pumps for your 600whp setup, ...a single Walbro 450LPH (F90000274) will max out at 600whp turbocharged on E85, 43psi base fuel pressure, 1:1 FPR
A single 525LPH covers 700whp, and they don't need to be used in pairs unless you are running small injectors and very high base fuel pressure (58+psi). If you do get two, or more, that means you probably have an NHRA certified chassis and should not be reading this thread.
Consider larger fuel injectors and 43psi base fuel pressure and yes, you can have too much fuel system. No reason to get more fuel than you can use, larger fuel pumps like the 525LPH pull proportionately more amperage and thus create more heat than pumps that will be adequate for your setup. Almost all of the fuel pumps are flow ratings are at 40psi of base fuel and significantly drop in flow as the pressure rises. The amperage draw becomes excessive at that point. The Bosch BR540, "044"(AEM still makes a copy of this pump), and BKS1000 are exceptions, they have very stable flow that does not have as much of a significant flow drop.
If you still think you need this much fuel then just get a BKS1000 and call it a day. Its PWM control only but you can run the pump slower and it pulls less amperage than multiple pumps. Less heat more flow. Its pretty much a E5LM.
Anyway my fuel tank omits all of the emissions components, piping, electrical, connections, etc. The fuel feed line was also removed, AN hose will go to a fuel filter and a flex fuel sensor in the trunk. I am planning on running from the fuel filter directly to fuel lines at the chassis. The two fuel tank vent valves will be connected to a tee and a breather. I may make some charcoal filter contraption to avoid the smell when there is a full tank of gasoline.
The fuel filler neck will be reused. The main 1.5" hose and smaller filler vent hose are the only thing needed for that. The small black bypass block on the filler pipe needs to stay but no hose connections to it are necessary. Its a mechanical pressure switch for EVAP venting but it has to to stay to fill in the hole on the filler pipe.
Changeover in fuel piping from metal to plastic seems related in the changeover from 16 bit to 32 bit DBW ecus. 2003 WRX still has rubber hose and metal fuel tank lines coated with very thick plastic. Later models around that DBW changeover had plastic fuel tubing and quick connect fittings. By MY2007 the fuel return tube on the fuel tank became a slightly smaller diamter (1mm?) than MY2002. None of that seems to have any effect and might actually be related to ensuring jet pump consistency. Also the RH side tank vent valve is missing the loop by MY2007, 2005-2006 models should still have the loop. The stock fuel tank vent valves are rollover safe. They have a large plunger and spring to close them shut in case of rollover. They are also well placed in the tank above the fuel level line and even have baffling to prevent fuel entering. Think of a cup upside down underwater.
Edit: One thing I forgot to mention which is very important. The breather vents on this tank go to a ~1/4" diameter hose and then both tee into a single 1/4" diameter hose. Obviously this is enough for a stock system that utilizes expansion through EVAP and vacuum through the intake manifold. However, please keep in mind this is not satisfactory for most high flow rate (350LPH and larger) fuel pumps. This is actually what causes pumps to fail "randomly". Modern EFI fuel systems have had fuel pump duty cycle controllers and complex EVAP systems to help alleviate fuel pressure inside the tank. OEMs also size the fuel pumps correctly for their intended application.
Older cars that were carburetor equipped, throttle body injection, and early multi port generally did not have such systems. The older vehicles generally will not have enough ventilation when converting to EFI and/or modern fuel pumps..
The example I am trying to make...There is "steam" (I need the visualization) inside the fuel tank. The "steam" is pressurized fuel vapor inside the fuel tank. The fuel pump will eventually fail from excessive pressure inside the fuel tank or the breather is unable to displace the fuel being pumped out with air fast enough without causing a vacuum. Yes, that will cause a fuel pump to fail very quickly. Fuel pumps are generally designed and constructed in such a way that they are not a wear item, even the aftermarket ones. Stop blaming certain companies for making bad fuel pumps or saying you got a dud. Typical fuel systems for a race car use -8AN through a -12AN breather(s). That's roughly under 1/2" to 3/4" for each breather. Most fuel cells will only have one breather and are usually 10 gallon capacity or less. I am planning on using two Walbro 450LPH (F90000274) fuel pumps and my breathers run 1/4" hose into a -8AN tee. It is not optimal but time will tell. I would not run the stock EVAP with a single 1/4" hose breather and two high flow pumps.
To put this in perspective:
I have one Walbro 255LPH (GSS342) and the stock fuel tank/venting/EVAP/fuel pump controller, and have had no issues. This was enough for the stock subaru turbocharged engine with four 1000cc injectors, 85% IDC, 43psi base fuel pressure, 1:1FPR
I have one Walbro 355LPH (GSS352G3) and the stock fuel tank/venting/EVAP, direct wired fuel pump, and have had no issues. This was enough for over 500WHP on 93 Octane and NATURALLY ASPIRATED, eight 35lb/hr injectors, 43-58psi base fuel pressure, 1:1FPR
Was the fuel tank venting sufficient? Probably not. Did it cause problems.....probably. I actually have an example; My fuel pump controller kept overheating and the car did not want to start in hot ambient temps. I mistakenly replaced my walbro 255LPH with a Deatschwerks 255LPH. I hardwired the fuel pump and that solved my unrelated hot start issue. After a few months the Deatschwerks fuel pump slowly died over time. The IDC% went from 60% to 90% at the same loads is when I noticed. Replaced it with a Walbro 355LPH and IDC% went back down to normal.
Do not size you fuel system for E85 requirements if plan on using non-oxygenated fuel such 93 octane, 260GT, C16.
I will go over fuel flow requirements in a later post but simply put....and these are very generous with room for overhead
Naturally Aspirated - do not use a pump larger than a 355LPH under 600whp
Turbocharged - Do not use larger than a 450LPH under 600whp. Add a second one if you are using E85 and need up to 900whp.
Check the fuel pump "max" fuel pressure, also called relief pressure/check valve pressure and compare it to your peak fuel pressure (base fuel pressure + peak boost pressure), Do not exceed this value, even as a single pump. Also factor in 10psi of fuel pressure drop/resistance for the fuel feed line. Larger fuel lines negate this...-8an feed line is really not neccesary until you start maxing out your pump with boost pressure or exceeding 900whp. Fuel feed line diameter will not help if your pump is maxed out.
These pumps have check valves and can be combined together in a dual or triple setup:
TI Automotive F90000267 also known as Walbro 465LHP is only rated for 87psi of fuel. 43psi base = 34psi of boost , 58psi base = 19psi of boost
TI Automotive F90000274 also known as Walbro 450LPH is rated for 112psi of fuel. 43psi base = 60psi of boost, 58psi base =45psi of boost
TI Automotive F90000285 also known as Walbro 525LPH is rated for 112psi of fuel. 43psi base = 60psi of boost, 58psi base =45psi of boost
This pump does not have an internal check valve and can only be run as a single pump, you can of course add an external check valve to stack these pumps
TI Automotive F90000295 also known as Walbro 535LPH does not actually have a rating but I would assume its good for 112psi. This pump is interesting because it pulls the same amperage as a 450LPH pump yet flows more. Good idea for a lower HP build using a single pump.
There is no reason to use multiple 525 Hellcat fuel pumps for your 600whp setup, ...a single Walbro 450LPH (F90000274) will max out at 600whp turbocharged on E85, 43psi base fuel pressure, 1:1 FPR
A single 525LPH covers 700whp, and they don't need to be used in pairs unless you are running small injectors and very high base fuel pressure (58+psi). If you do get two, or more, that means you probably have an NHRA certified chassis and should not be reading this thread.
Consider larger fuel injectors and 43psi base fuel pressure and yes, you can have too much fuel system. No reason to get more fuel than you can use, larger fuel pumps like the 525LPH pull proportionately more amperage and thus create more heat than pumps that will be adequate for your setup. Almost all of the fuel pumps are flow ratings are at 40psi of base fuel and significantly drop in flow as the pressure rises. The amperage draw becomes excessive at that point. The Bosch BR540, "044"(AEM still makes a copy of this pump), and BKS1000 are exceptions, they have very stable flow that does not have as much of a significant flow drop.
If you still think you need this much fuel then just get a BKS1000 and call it a day. Its PWM control only but you can run the pump slower and it pulls less amperage than multiple pumps. Less heat more flow. Its pretty much a E5LM.
Anyway my fuel tank omits all of the emissions components, piping, electrical, connections, etc. The fuel feed line was also removed, AN hose will go to a fuel filter and a flex fuel sensor in the trunk. I am planning on running from the fuel filter directly to fuel lines at the chassis. The two fuel tank vent valves will be connected to a tee and a breather. I may make some charcoal filter contraption to avoid the smell when there is a full tank of gasoline.
The fuel filler neck will be reused. The main 1.5" hose and smaller filler vent hose are the only thing needed for that. The small black bypass block on the filler pipe needs to stay but no hose connections to it are necessary. Its a mechanical pressure switch for EVAP venting but it has to to stay to fill in the hole on the filler pipe.
Last edited by Sway Tale; 08-20-2022 at 04:00 PM.
07-19-2022, 01:57 PM
#131
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Haven't done anything interesting for now....
Took apart the rear differential. Its an OEM subaru helical LSD. Torsen T2, probably made by J-Tekt under license. I have seen plenty of the front diffs but never bothered with the rear.
I wanted to swap the rear cover and check how hard it would be to weld it locked. It requires setting up an elaborate jig to do it properly, cutting up the LSD housing to tack, and its just a lot of work. I already have two clutch LSD R180s (which are much easier to weld BTW) and OS Giken makes an adjustable clutch LSD with forged internals. Avoid the Cusco LSD, its a huge letdown on quality compared to the OS Giken.
Fuel Tank is in:
Ideas for mounting Fuel Filter and Ethanol Content Analyzer aka flex fuel sensor
Nobody makes an X brace for GD chassis cars anymore...well someone in a country that I can't import from anymore does
Cusco makes something like it but it bolts to the trunk floor, so now I have some shiny bars that may not be effective
Rear Subframe went from this:
To this:
Took apart the rear differential. Its an OEM subaru helical LSD. Torsen T2, probably made by J-Tekt under license. I have seen plenty of the front diffs but never bothered with the rear.
I wanted to swap the rear cover and check how hard it would be to weld it locked. It requires setting up an elaborate jig to do it properly, cutting up the LSD housing to tack, and its just a lot of work. I already have two clutch LSD R180s (which are much easier to weld BTW) and OS Giken makes an adjustable clutch LSD with forged internals. Avoid the Cusco LSD, its a huge letdown on quality compared to the OS Giken.
Fuel Tank is in:
Ideas for mounting Fuel Filter and Ethanol Content Analyzer aka flex fuel sensor
Nobody makes an X brace for GD chassis cars anymore...well someone in a country that I can't import from anymore does
Cusco makes something like it but it bolts to the trunk floor, so now I have some shiny bars that may not be effective
Rear Subframe went from this:
To this:
10-14-2022, 05:05 PM
#132
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Spent a lot of time trying out new ideas.
Needed to fill in this large hole.. I was tempted to use wood but it doesn't like exposure to weather and painting it doesn't last. If you didn't know wood is a superior material in terms of strength, weight, and cost compared to aluminum.
Installed the Cusco Triangle brace... The design is not that bad.
Got the rest of the suspension in the car
I couldn't come up with any good ideas for the trunk layout
Made an aluminum panel, the countersink bolt idea didn't work....I used 1/8" plate and m10 bolts, its too thin. M6 countersink barely works on 1/8", just didn't think of it at the time.
Considered some rear mount turbo ideas.. Its interesting but a lot of work
Fuel tank breather, ran it inside the bumper
Used some stock interior panels to make plates that will bolt up behind the rear seats. Came up with a way to add some additional circuits and save space. The battery switch I am not keeping long term.
Swapped out my spare 2006 sti trans for my R200 club transmission that I previously had seized a hub slider in gear.
Its got some fancy PPG shifter forks after dealing with mis-shift issues
Did some secret squirrel stuff
Added a temp sensor to datalog this transmission since its the 2007+ without oil pump and only splash lubrication. Bosch NTC M12x1.5 are your friend. They are like $15 for late 80s to early 90s BMW and Volvo. Same thing as the motorsport sensor. GM, Subaru, and Mazda use similar NTC type sensors for their coolant temp sensors, resistance to temp scaling is identical. Most manufactures have an NTC type sensor anyway.
Added an extension to top of trans for temp plug
quarter cutaway of a Subaru EJ block
Trying to line up trans to stock driveline angle
Solid engine and trans mounts for the mockup
Stock motor mounts...Unfortunately I dont think these brackets will work
Needed to fill in this large hole.. I was tempted to use wood but it doesn't like exposure to weather and painting it doesn't last. If you didn't know wood is a superior material in terms of strength, weight, and cost compared to aluminum.
Installed the Cusco Triangle brace... The design is not that bad.
Got the rest of the suspension in the car
I couldn't come up with any good ideas for the trunk layout
Made an aluminum panel, the countersink bolt idea didn't work....I used 1/8" plate and m10 bolts, its too thin. M6 countersink barely works on 1/8", just didn't think of it at the time.
Considered some rear mount turbo ideas.. Its interesting but a lot of work
Fuel tank breather, ran it inside the bumper
Used some stock interior panels to make plates that will bolt up behind the rear seats. Came up with a way to add some additional circuits and save space. The battery switch I am not keeping long term.
Swapped out my spare 2006 sti trans for my R200 club transmission that I previously had seized a hub slider in gear.
Its got some fancy PPG shifter forks after dealing with mis-shift issues
Did some secret squirrel stuff
Added a temp sensor to datalog this transmission since its the 2007+ without oil pump and only splash lubrication. Bosch NTC M12x1.5 are your friend. They are like $15 for late 80s to early 90s BMW and Volvo. Same thing as the motorsport sensor. GM, Subaru, and Mazda use similar NTC type sensors for their coolant temp sensors, resistance to temp scaling is identical. Most manufactures have an NTC type sensor anyway.
Added an extension to top of trans for temp plug
quarter cutaway of a Subaru EJ block
Trying to line up trans to stock driveline angle
Solid engine and trans mounts for the mockup
Stock motor mounts...Unfortunately I dont think these brackets will work
Last edited by Sway Tale; 10-14-2022 at 05:35 PM.
10-14-2022, 05:41 PM
#133
On The Tree
Thread Starter
There's more
Made a bracket to adapt a Wilwood Master to the stock pedal without the brake booster. It fits ok on the stock bolt holes. Doing it this way raises the master for a better pedal ratio. A different clevis is required to make this work
Enter Chase Bays version of what I was trying to do. Truth is I waited for over 6 months to get the chasebays kit. The idea was try and learn from theirs instead of fabricating something of my own. I ended up doing both.
On top of that I adapted a Wilwood Master for the clutch too. I removed ABS and the stock brake lines for now. I have more ideas for the braking system but for now I am trying out some keep it simple stupid stuff.
Made a bracket to adapt a Wilwood Master to the stock pedal without the brake booster. It fits ok on the stock bolt holes. Doing it this way raises the master for a better pedal ratio. A different clevis is required to make this work
Enter Chase Bays version of what I was trying to do. Truth is I waited for over 6 months to get the chasebays kit. The idea was try and learn from theirs instead of fabricating something of my own. I ended up doing both.
On top of that I adapted a Wilwood Master for the clutch too. I removed ABS and the stock brake lines for now. I have more ideas for the braking system but for now I am trying out some keep it simple stupid stuff.
01-11-2023, 09:12 AM
#134
Any new updates?
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wretched73 (01-12-2023)
03-22-2023, 01:17 PM
#136
On The Tree
Thread Starter
Ok, the reason there are no updates. I need to get with the modern times:
So I went and picked one up
Lots of space in front of the stock rad support
plenty to mount a decent cooling package.
13.5:1 electric rack..stock. awesome
Gear ratios wider than the widest ratio TY85 6MT USDM legacy spec B and JDM forester STi...that being said it looks a lot like the gear ratios from a 2011 legacy/outback TY75 6MT
Ok now the reason I needed a new car: CAN BUS. Two CAN lines run to ECM, one CAN for things the manual version doesn't have such as TCM, and the other CAN line for things like the Radio, active suspension damper, electric brake boost, instrument cluster. The annoying part is it looks like P/U2 CAN has to communicate with the gateway to avoid faults and/or gateway translates the data to another module. I have ran into this issue before with Siemens/Continental CAN base CAN systems.
Old cars the CAN is out in the open, SGP (Subaru Global Platform) cars have multiple CAN BUS behind a gateway. This is pretty common nowadays
The multiple CAN daisy chain....
silly gateway
So now I am trying to develop a CAN emulator. I need to emulate two separate CAN lines and translate them to Analog and/or a third CAN such as Haltech, AEM, or OEM. I can also attempt to construct my own gateway and use OBD2 PID on the diagnostic end of the gateway.
In any case, I am still going to finish developing the LS swap on the GD but unfortunately I would like to start on the newer models. The SGP chassis is a huge improvement on handling for the WRX and it solves a lot of understeer issues present with the original car back from 1993.
So I went and picked one up
Lots of space in front of the stock rad support
plenty to mount a decent cooling package.
13.5:1 electric rack..stock. awesome
Gear ratios wider than the widest ratio TY85 6MT USDM legacy spec B and JDM forester STi...that being said it looks a lot like the gear ratios from a 2011 legacy/outback TY75 6MT
Ok now the reason I needed a new car: CAN BUS. Two CAN lines run to ECM, one CAN for things the manual version doesn't have such as TCM, and the other CAN line for things like the Radio, active suspension damper, electric brake boost, instrument cluster. The annoying part is it looks like P/U2 CAN has to communicate with the gateway to avoid faults and/or gateway translates the data to another module. I have ran into this issue before with Siemens/Continental CAN base CAN systems.
Old cars the CAN is out in the open, SGP (Subaru Global Platform) cars have multiple CAN BUS behind a gateway. This is pretty common nowadays
The multiple CAN daisy chain....
silly gateway
So now I am trying to develop a CAN emulator. I need to emulate two separate CAN lines and translate them to Analog and/or a third CAN such as Haltech, AEM, or OEM. I can also attempt to construct my own gateway and use OBD2 PID on the diagnostic end of the gateway.
In any case, I am still going to finish developing the LS swap on the GD but unfortunately I would like to start on the newer models. The SGP chassis is a huge improvement on handling for the WRX and it solves a lot of understeer issues present with the original car back from 1993.
Last edited by Sway Tale; 03-22-2023 at 01:44 PM.
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nleming (03-22-2023)
01-29-2024, 03:43 PM
#137
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I am using a custom flywheel and a transmission adapter plate. Flywheel fits an STi clutch and bolts to the LS crank. Adapter plate just bolts on to the LS block and is drilled and tapped for a subaru bellhousing. I am using an LS pilot bearing and a bushing to make up the difference from the smaller diameter subaru input shaft end. The flywheel has a ring gear for a subaru so my starter is bolted on the transmission.
I did have to do some cutting to the adapter. I cut off the section where there are 2 oil pan to bellhousing bolts. My subframe/steering rack would have been in the way.
A company called subarugears, from Australia, makes these adapters for various engines. They actually make a lot of stuff to run subaru transmissions in volkswagen vans.
I did have to do some cutting to the adapter. I cut off the section where there are 2 oil pan to bellhousing bolts. My subframe/steering rack would have been in the way.
A company called subarugears, from Australia, makes these adapters for various engines. They actually make a lot of stuff to run subaru transmissions in volkswagen vans.
thanks
