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Cliff Notes: I spent some more time comparing EMS that I was interested in.
Get a Holley Terminator X or X Max, especially if you want it simple and reliable. KISS applies. The only one that fully supports common automatic transmissions. Get a Haltech Elite 2000 or Elite 2500 if you can afford it and need lots of customization. Software is excellent and modern. At $1500-$2500 it is superior. NO native automatic transmission support. Get an AEM Series 3 if you are on a budget or like something linear and motorsport oriented. MS3Pro competitor but with better processing power. Has typical AEM quirks. Avoid the AEM Series 5 and Series 7, it costs as much as Haltech and does less. The only thing they offer for less money is DBW, Dual DBW and a modern 200Mhz processor. Look into an EL129 if you know how to write code. No reason to get a Holley HP. Holley EFI is a bit outdated compared to the Terminator X. The Dominator does have 50 Inputs and 36 outputs which would solve the inadequacies (ie; upgrading to LSU4.9) through the Holley EFI sofware. At $2,350, I can't say its worth it. The Edelbrock PF4 is the easiest to tune and setup, even simpler than the Terminator X but costs just as much and offers almost NO functions/customization. Must use a PF4+ which is more expensive than a Holley X Max in order to use an automatic transmission and/or DBW.
Holley Terminator X (including X Max) is very straightforward and simple. Very easy to work with and master. It comes with a harness for less money than other systems. If you are drag racing, street rolls, daily driver, this is what you need.
A solid system if you want the car to run well and don't understand much about tuning. This is why professional tuners recommend it. Pun intended.
The Terminator X is too limited for high end setups, too few custom tables and functions. On the one hand some input/outputs can be changed to anything you want but there is only four. On the other they don't have much use for most users beyond flex fuel, boost control, or radiator fans.
Haltech has everything you would ever want or need. It has excellent software. There are only three downsides to the Haltech, the LS engine would require an Elite 2000 or a 2500 (for DBW). Haltech also uses the same exact 50Mhz processor as a MegaSquirt3 Pro. Probably why its so good and at same time has me wondering: How much better can the Elite 2000 or 2500 be with a better processor? Why don't I just pick up an MS3Pro? Haltech is expensive but worth it.
No native automatic transmission support......but you can create generic tables and with so much customization available you can set it up.
I already had a series 3 in my car and I like it.
AEM Infinity Series 3 is cheap for an 8 cylinder non-DBW setup and has a 200Mhz processor. The software has a lot of features, some customization, mostly predefined. Available data, software layout, and AEMData logging is really good, unfortunately the software is linear and some users find it complicated. It is motorsport oriented so if you can deal with the quirks you will like it. You have to make your own harness for the Series 3. There is not much you can do outside of the options presented in the menu, although it is more than the Terminator X. Its disappointing because the Infinity is actually the Engine Lab EL129. The EL129 allows for custom software and their version comes with engine modeling/simulation. The Series 5 and Series 7 are more expensive than the Elite 2000 and 2500 but offer less customization.
The difference between the 50 MHz 16bit processor (Haltech Elite and MS3Pro) and the EL129's 200Mhz 32bit processor that I like to mention is a reaction time difference between the EMS. This is noticeable when looking at feedback in a log or closed loop operation. Before anyone takes this to heart, it does not necessarily mean you will be able to perceive or measure a noticeable difference. Also the way that these EMS process data is different, regardless of cpu. I cannot compare the difference in processing power without the actual EMS installed on identical vehicles using identical configurations. This is, however, something that is important to me. Having said all that the AEM software quirks ruin all that advantage sometimes. It will cause unintended spark issues such as incorrect ignition spark (timing) during loss of trigger sync even though the hardware is actually capable of avoiding that...............
Open source based tuning (OpenECU-Tactrix, RomRaider, COBB Accesstuner) has limitations in the software because of the hardware. Even with custom ROMs with re-scripted coding there is only so much you can do. HPTuners and EFI Live are not any different. Having flex fuel, speed density, boost by gear, etc. on an OEM ECU is very cool but it sucks.
I used the example: ignition compensation based on crankcase pressure example a few times, it only interests me because if the EMS is capable of something like that then it can do almost anything. In my case, I have been adjusting timing based on high oil temperature, coolant temperature, TPS threshold/time to prevent engine wear/damage. This is important when racing for more than 5 minutes at a time. Sometimes I purposely use only up to 70-85% TPS when I feel the engine losing power and/or the temps are just too high. It would be nice to not have to think about that and have an EMS calibrated to take this into account. Adding or reducing power dynamically is what I am trying to do. I don't need max power all the way at top of 6th gear where the coolant temp drops but the oil temp starts climbing rapidly. Having to constantly adjust the base tables to fix ambient temp compensations is ridiculous. The engine responding differently to ambient humidity or temp is frustrating. Figuring out the compensations setup are not working or there is a limitation that you cannot workaround is stupid.
I got curious again on the Terminator X, Haltech and Infinity. Biggest difference I found was the Infinity and Haltech just offer more options, especially when it comes to boost control, flex fuel, and meth injection.
I got interested in fueling. Specifically how to correct/update the VE table. They all have VE/fueling trims/corrections but I don't see the ability to auto-correct the VE table without user interaction.
Haltech can do short term and long term trims. You can correct the VE table on the fly while logging and there is a way to apply long term corrections to the VE table from the settings menu. Not something I can try out but whatever.
You can scale up to 32x32 and change Axes. I haven't seen a table yet that does not allow you to do that.
You do have to setup O2 control. This is the nice thing about Haltech, lots of simple ways to apply a table to something.
Long term trims:
You have to setup CAN. There are a few cars that the Haltech is compatible with on CAN.
Haltech has a lot of CAN expansion options but they only support Haltech devices.
That simple
Haltech flex fuel. It uses tables called fuel composition. It does allow you to mess with the sampling rate for the ethanol sensor.
Haltech Boost Control is on point, closed loop, open loop, long term, wastegate pressure, manifold pressure, duty cycle correction, target pressure correction, trim, scramble, whatever.
Terminator X VE table, plenty of resolution. I don't know if you can scale the amount of cells/resolution.
Holley VE table corrections are a simple button under Learn Table, "Transfer Learning to Base".
The AFR target table is a bit small, its the same way for the HP/Dominator
The AEM isnt any better, its only a 10x10 table but I like the AFR trim options. Correction factor is on point but applying it to your table isn't straight forward.
The only use I have for boost control is with flex fuel, this is where the AEM shines:
AEM flex fuel. Pretty straight forward, just set the fuel type to Flex and setup the sensor.
All the tables you need for flex are there, ignition, boost, fueling.
The Terminator X boost control is very basic. Its relies on dome pressure or open loop. Integrating boost control with flex fuel eats up custom tables and reminds me of OEM boost control. Not interested in all that and a standalone EBC would be superior to it. I know it works but its not for me so I didn't even bother with a screenshot. The flex fuel isn't all that great on the Terminator X either, it works but it feels like an open source tune for an OEM ecu. Definitely a deal breaker for me.
I had copies made so I can either make a midplate design or something that bolts up to the subaru motor mounts. Clutch Masters helped me out once again. Don't bother trying to order the adapter plate from them...you can't because they're sold through a different channel.
Subaru engine on the right
The lowest transmission bolts are actually studs on subarus and they aren't plug and play with either of the adapter plates. They have to be studs. The axles are in the way of using bolts...unless you plan to pull the axles to install the engines. So I modified the stock studs and made them a little shorter.
EJ vs LS, long block dimensions. EJ is missing a bunch of parts
For reference, EJ205 long block with a stock turbo on it. My 6.0 LS long block was ~300lbs
I did not know that GEN IV knock sensors fit on GEN 3 blocks...or rather 24x crank 1x cam engines that have one wire knock sensor castings in the valley
My L33 had two spots for it already
Cliff Notes: No, I still haven't finished the car. A single drawer full of fittings in my tool box is worth more than my car. I put Honda wheels on my car and motorcycle oil in my engine. Throttle brackets, for a 4150 throttle body, are crap. Intercoolers under $1000 are definitely made in china. Radium Auto makes a split flow flex fuel sensor adapter and no one realizes it was designed for fuel feed lines and not return. I complain about having a twin turbo setup. Russian company sells suspension bushings out of New Jersey, from JDM RHD shitboxes to GMT800 to Ford junk.
Not much happened. Kind of regretting running a twin turbo setup at this point....then remembering the goal was to be able to support twin s366s or smaller. I did make a thread contemplating the required effort to make this happen...Oh well, I have more shells waiting for an LS swap
anyway.....
Oil drain came in really low and tight, 12an didn't work out.... Contemplating a super low mounted single S488 with an electric oil pump drain. Radium banjo fittings save my *** yet again.
Oil filter mounted below the engine, there really was no other place for it
It works out though
In the spirit of budget LS swaps.....I used whatever leftover oil I had. I even threw in a quart of motorcycle oil for good measure
The S372 doesn't fit, the compressor cover is just too big....that and its over kill. Either way the 257s are going on first. If they're not enough then I'll worry about it.
The RH side of the car has plenty of space for everything
Not very happy with the dipstick situation. Downpipe out of the LH side turbo comes really close to the alternator. I am going to see if a DR37 alternator (2012ish silverado small alternator) will help with clearance. Why DR37 and not AD244? Because I am a fan of the PWM 2 wire alternators. You can just drop the voltage down to 13 after the car warms up.
So this is my old throttle bracket. It blocks the vacuum ports on the Wilson 4150 and the cable started rubbing through the jacket.
I got a throttle bracket for an edelbrock throttle body. I got the wrong one so the cable placement is terrible but it works. I am using a spiky washer under the bracket to prevent it from moving. Its a Lokar bracket and apparently there are two different versions because edelbrock makes two different 4150 efi throttle bodies.
Needed a touch of rice to make this more exciting. Honda CR-V wheels to the rescue. I knew my 255s were huge but I forgot just how much. Comparison pictures.
The reality is it was snowing outside and this was the only set of rims with snow tires I had left. All my other sets are either bald or on another car. That and even towing it around on RE-71s was a pain.
I looked at all the timing pointers for sale and Mighty Mouse Solutions had the only one I liked. I originally ordered the stock damper version but then I got a 10% underdrive pulley. Its a good thing I did. My belt setup and TDC mark aren't friends with the timing pointer. The stock damper version works just fine with a smaller pulley. I wish the studs it came with were longer. I used 5mm longer studs to make myself happy, otherwise if you are looking for a timing pointer this one is pretty good. Motion raceworks and Summit have a couple but the huge arrow pointer is lame.
the gap with a stock damper size pointer and a 10% underdrive ATI pulley:
If I pin'd my crank pulley a few degrees earlier I would have used this one, the 10% under drive version. I still can but then I would have TDC at 350 degrees instead to clear the belt. It's not touching the belt but I have to remove the pointer to remove the belt.
Debating on these AliBaba-Ebay special 4x6 barrel intercoolers or the CXRacing-Siliconehoses-frozenboost intercooler bricks. The bricks are way more than I need for S257s but the china 4x6 aren't enough. In any case all the Air to Water Intercoolers for sale are all made in China or Taiwan by the same factories. Spearco, PWR/C&R, Garrett are the only companies I can think of that are making their own other than buying bare cores. There might be a handful of companies that also make them but they're usually over $750. The two 10x4.5x3.75 core bricks I have were $375 and I don't see how $1500+ 4x6 core fancy coolers are going to do any better. This is one of those things that only makes sense if you need a custom cooler size.
The air filters in the pictures are just place holders. Green filter is what I usually use and I'm still coming up with a way to feed the intake from fresh air. Most likely cobra head elbows running to the fenders.
China 4x6 barrel:
"CXRacing" 15x5x4.5 bricks, more on this next time I post:
I am going to use flex fuel on this car. I could have just stayed Naturally Aspirated but everyone else is using E85 to make up for their ***** size...err lack of ability to make more power out of their current setup...err small displacement unreliable turbo 4 cylinders...err BMWs??? I don't know but I don't have access to E85 locally so it has to be a flex fuel since I run the car on 93 most of the time. Ethanol does have the benefit of running a lot cooler than pump gas, however, its a huge waste of fuel. 30% more is required, I would burn through E85 real quick on a 4 cylinder. Then again the car doesn't see much below 50% tps. Whatever my opinion may be, its there why not use it.
anyway...
I picked up the Radium split flow adapter for a GM flex fuel sensor. I am trying to mount this on the feed line. This is exactly what its made for. 10AN orb ports. I have used this flex fuel sensor, with 6an fittings on the return, on the subaru and mitsubishi cars and never had a problem. Again, this is available...why not use it?
Molykote 55 O ring grease. Prevents rubber stuff from ripping. I even assemble AN fittings with this.
The fittings slip on like so, viton o rings, some fancy bolts to keep it all together
What split flow actually means. fuel goes through the sensor and around the sensor at the same time. This does cause a pressure drop but when some people are running triple 525 hellcat pumps on their 650whp setup.. I don't see a problem.
Fully assembled, the other fancy thing is the adapter gives you a bracket to mount this contraption. Mounting holes aren't visible in this picture but they are right above the sensor tubes.
Apparently Siberian bushings sells poly bushings with the outer metal shells. They have bushings for GMT800, which would have been nice when I did my pickup because Energy Suspension makes you reuse the outer metal shells in the arms. I needed a bushing for a 1996 Toyota Chaser rear spindle...a JDM RHD shitbox.. That was never sold in America. To my surprise there's a distributor in NJ. Maybe not everything is made in China after all.
Last edited by Sway Tale; 02-09-2022 at 12:56 PM.
Reason: Spelling corrections
The turbo oil feed is kind of nifty. The best place for a turbo oil feed is generally oil coming out of the filter as opposed to a passage in the block or before the oil filter. Either of those cause an unnecessary pressure drop or require separate filtration on the oil feed. There is a caveat though, most oil filters have bypass valves. The filters I use usually don't. How do you feed oil to a turbo off of a -10AN line? Simple, a 10an male to female fitting with a 1/8 npt port on it, like for a sensor. 1/8NPT is way more than enough, it is a larger diameter port than 4AN.
10AN sensor adapter examples:
4AN tee with 1/8npt:
I have a dual 4AN to 1/8npt Tee attached to the 10an adapter on the outlet of my remote oil filter setup.
Like so:
The oil feeds to both turbos out of this Tee before the line returns to the block. If you keep the branches to the turbos equal length it will not cause any problems. If one line ends up being too long just make it loop around something or a coil. Also running 4AN off a 1/8npt port attached to a 10an is a simple way of preventing excessive oil flow and pressure at the turbo. This would work just as well on a single turbo setup. If you are being stubborn and still using a stock oil pan and don't have a remote oil filter setup then go ahead sap oil from your engine at the oil pressure sensor port. It works but there is a difference if you can grab the oil before the barbell. AN fittings don't cause a noticeable difference in flow or pressure, get that "each 90 degree turn is equal to 5 feet of straight hose" mentality out of your head. The oil galleries in the engine block have hard and sharp turns and yet LS engines make it to 250k miles. AN fittings are much smoother than that, even the forged elbows. 10AN is over 1/2" ID at the hose and slightly smaller at the fittings. That is more than plenty. Even dry sump setups use 12AN or less for oil feed and they have way more pump flow capability.
Remember those Melling 10355HV pumps I'm so fond of? Or the 10296? Or pretty much any pump that flows more than stock? You can go HAM with the turns, bends, banjos, hard 90 elbows, oil filter size, length of hoses, oil cooler, etc. If it's available, why not make your setup work the way you need it to? No reason to compromise.
this thread is rad AF, really appreciate your attention to detail and taking the time to talk about all of this.
Originally Posted by Tyler Dietzenbach
This is an insane amount of work.. Wowza. Following for more updates.
Thank you.
Originally Posted by wretched73
Great progress. I really enjoy reading through your build.
Why not skip the intercoolers? or at least just skip them for now?
The IAT would be excessively high on pump 93. Loss of power from high IAT (eventual retard timing to reduce knock) would be noticeable, if that doesn't happen then broken ringlands, high oil temps.
Yes, on e85 you can get away without intercoolers. Not completely, but enough for drag racing and repeated roll racing.
I meant skip for now so you can get this version of the build complete for now. If IATs are insane you can hit it with Meth while you plan an intercooler setup
IDK what the interior of the car is like, but maybe put one under the dash lol
Cliff notes: My intercooler setup is less complicated than the exhaust and air filter intake. I think BMW makes shitty cars but I like some of their innovations.
I would skip the intercoolers, but I have to make charge pipes anyway. The intercoolers would take the space of a straight pipe. Sorry, I forgot to mention this previously. I mean, I don't think I will driving the car anytime soon even without the intercoolers.
I will probably skip the heat exchanger(s), pump, and reservoir for the intercoolers, until everything else is done. I may end up having to relocate the radiator or something.
Since you reminded me....I was going to post some info on what I plan for the intercooler setup...
I got the idea from BMW. It works well and its fairly compact.
This is the intercooler setup on the BMW n63 engine. Its a reverse airflow V8 with direct injection and and has twin turbos. The reverse flow heads allow for an easy way to setup twin scroll headers to each turbo. There are two ecms to run one engine and they require cooling, so they use the intercooler cooling circuit which is separate from the engine cooling circuit.
Lets fix that. My setup would look something like this but the intercoolers would be behind the engine:
The S63 system is even more complicated. 3 heat exchangers and 2 pumps. I have never attempted a setup this ambitious and I don't think it would be necessary. I believe BMW used two CWA50 or maybe even smaller pumps on this setup.
The idea BMW has is sound and it works, I already have experience with this. The problem is its BMW, it has to be overly complicated, specialized and meet a very low price point for production (Also read as: low quality, unreliable, doesn't last). The BMW M5, X5M, and X6M are rather large and bulky cars that have space for all this.
Hopefully one CWA150 or CWA100 pump with a heat exchanger stacked in front of my current radiator for both intercoolers should be enough. I am familiar with the S63 engine and the stock intercoolers/heat exchangers are very good at keeping IAT low. Its also not a lot of boost and every car was using E85/flex setups. I have never dealt with N63 cars and turning up the boost. Another point is even the M models have rather small turbos, they flow much less than the S257sxe, they top out where the S257 starts. My intercooler bricks also have larger cores than what comes on the BMWs.
I have to custom make the elbows out of the turbos to clear the subframe and point up towards the hood. The intercooler starts right after that so...yea thats why I don't really want to skip them. The whole setup at this point revolves around making the charge to the intake manifold as efficient as possible.
Anybody have an idea why BMW has the flow reversed at the heat exchanger?
Cliff Notes: Alternators. Pulley diameters affect the speed of your alternator. DR37 and DR44 are the same size. CS130D requires a small notch to fit corvette/Zeta belt spacing when low mounted. CS130D is much smaller than DR44.
I have been constantly noticing voltage drop above 6,000 rpm. Pretty much no charge, 12.5 at around 7,500rpm. I did not think much of it until recently. My turbocharged setup is actually going to strain the fuel pumps this time and I need the voltage to be more stable. Varying voltage has an effect on injector pulse width and that causes inconsistencies while trying to tune the car. Alternators that fit the LS generally have a max useable speed of of 18,000 RPM.
Fancy chart is fancy:
Well that's a nice chart and all but you don't actually have the pulley in stock......
So I google'd: LS alternator pulley
The only other pulley I could find was LSXinnovations 2.85" diameter compared to Motion Raceworks 3"
Pulley swap was easy. Impact wrench and it comes of by hand.
I wanted to pick up a DR37, to replace my DR44 and keep the 2 wire PWM setup. I thought the DR37 was smaller, it isn't.
Size comparison CS130D vs DR44:
CS130D on the right, the downpipe is turned towards the alternator on the right and away from it on the left
DR37 vs CS130D
The CS130D interferes with the block if you try to use corvette belt spacing (Zeta platform SS, G8, Holden) and mount it low
Grind it down a little
Check for clearance
and done
Its ok to use a belt with less ribs. With the larger diameter alternator pulley I needed a 830mm belt and a 5 rib was the only thing available locally.
Had the wrong springs in the gate, aint trying to make 26 psi just yet
Great stuff,, so wondered,, have you ever compared the V8 to a 2014 or newer 4.3? V6?
They make about 300 stock, I would think some boost on one could be entertaining..
And might fit well in this kind of swap.. May even be lighter than the stock motor?
I would like to answer that in a simple way but I can't. I did look into the V6 engines but...there was really nothing to gain at all over the LS, maybe 1-2 inch of clearance while making a custom pulley, belt drive, oil pan, oil sump, intake manifold and less power. Edit: Let me expand on this because I didn't really answer your question with this wall of text. The 2014+ 4.3L has an enormous belt drive for absolutely no reason, very poor aftermarket support, inherent imbalance requiring a balance shaft and split pin crankshaft. The Nissan VQ37VHR makes up to 400hp flywheel N/A, revs to 7,800 rpm without touching the valve covers and is already compact in comparison. My point is there are much better V6 engines to compare to the LS.
Clifff notes: Engine choices specific to my setup. I explain how much time in your life you can waste. I complain about German cars and Honda K series engines, yet again.
I started this project with the intent of decreasing engine failures and future costs. I got tired of rebuilding/buying new engines every 6 months to a year while only making 350-500whp. 700whp wouldn't last at all unless I never went full throttle over 150mph but then what would be the point? That just became stupid after 10 or so subaru engines. LOL, to this day, 07/27/2022, the first LS I bought in 2019 (5.3L L33) that had cracked cylinder heads is in the car and still runs with 0.0060 PTW clearance on stock pistons and even made over 350whp NA with bolt ons, custom cam, and AWD. Better yet a 6.0 I bought, with a collapsed lifter and over 200k miles, now has over 3,500 miles of racing on a scratched up crank and still hasn't spun a bearing. Did I mention I tried to hit 150mph on a 4.8 that already had a spun bearing and made it back home?
My prerequisites were very simple:
Use off the shelf parts
Custom parts and chassis modifications to a minimum
Something that would be legal for classes with no engine restrictions but still eligible for other restrictions (engine placement, stock suspension geometry).
This means using the subaru transmission (or even an Audi quattro setup) as the subaru chassis is worthless without it.
And of course the most important: Keep it simple stupid
My engine choices eventually got narrowed down to:
EJ20 - Used 2.0L subaru engines from JDM importers. Superior rod to stroke ratio as compared to EJ25, not just the numbers, mechanically superior in motion. These usually cost $500-$1500 and the rings can be re-gapped without taking apart the bottom end. Rod bearings are a common failure point but not as common as 2.5L. Power potential is only 350-550hp with the stock long block. Aftermarket parts are expensive. Exhaust manifolds and stock location flange turbos can cost over $2000 each....That's price gouging. These engine don't last long but they are off the shelf and cheap. Another idea is to use destroke'd 2.5L by combining 2.5L blocks with 2.0L crankshaft but....I am still stuck with a crap cylinder block, crap cylinder heads, and turbo lag. Oh and my favorite...shitty quality of OEM aluminum.
EZ30 - 6 cylinder flat 3.0L subaru engine much like the stock 4 cylinder. Only produced naturally aspirated. Cost is $500-$1500. Same issues as the EJ25 and EJ20...bearings, ring gap, head bolts. Power potential isnt any better. Custom parts. Bolts in without modifications to anything other than coolant hoses, engine management, exhaust. Only 3/4" longer in length than the 4 cylinder 2.0L, this is at the cost of making the crankshaft more compact (Read: weaker legs on the crank pins).
Toyota 1JZ/2JZ - Too long (31 inches), too tall, too heavy (iron block) and as of last year too expensive. 600-700hp is the limitations of the stock long block. Not much beyond manifolds and internal engine parts for off the shelf parts. Rev happy 1JZ is only a 2.5L. Dry sump or cutom oil pan is a must because OEM oil pans/sumps are crap.
VQ37VHR - very short length(20 inches IIRC), very tall (~24+ inches or something like that), 60° bank angle. Very cheap to procure from junk yards, variable timing and lift on intake cams but nothing on exhaust. Most standalone EMS don't support the crank trigger. 500-650hp power potential with stock long block. Expensive aftermarket internal engine parts and lack thereof. Lightweight aluminum block This was the favorite until I decided on the LS
4G63 - decently compact, similar to VQ37 but shorter in height. Heavy for its size, small displacement. Manifolds are backwards for a longitudinal install, lots of custom one off parts required. Low power potential on stock long block, 500-600hp with lag.
4B11- Mitsubishi's version of a Honda K20. Small and light. Aluminum block, variable timing and trick bottom end/main cap girdle.Too expensive and setup for transverse engine install. Same issues as the other transverse 4 cylinders. 500hp limit on stock long block.
Honda K20- because its shorter in height and has better redline potential than K24. The engine is lightweight and short (20 inches with crank pulley IIRC). Its a terrible engine though. Power potential on stock long block is only 400-450hp with abysmally low torque...like 300 lb-ft. Great for something that weighs under 1500lbs. Lots of custom parts for longitudinal install. Even built engines with an S475, over 30psi of boost and 900whp can only muster around 500 lb-ft. Would have to run rally-anti lag to make the most of this engine.
GM 60° V6 - Not interested, Nissan produces the VQ which is vastly superior to it in every way....even the Buick V6 is a much better alternative but they're getting scarce.
LS - Lightweight for the displacement, custom cams are $500, engines are cheap. I don't mean junkyard, I mean a brand new LS3 is only $5,000 for the long block. Used engines can be bought for under $1000. Off the shelf parts galore such as water manifolds/pumps, belt drive spacing, manifolds, valve train, oil pans. Custom one off parts can be ordered over the phone without a drawing. Available in iron or aluminum blocks. Reliability due to having lower cylinder pressure than a 4 cylinder. 550-600hp naturally aspirated is easily (also read: cheap) attainable.
LT - GEN V SBC - Manifolds, oil pan, belt drive are the biggest issues, can't exactly go out and buy something like for the LS. Nothing gained over installing an LS.
SBC - GEN 1/2 - one word: Motown
BBC - Don't tempt me, the LS barely fits.
GM 90° V6 - sort of a 6 cylinder version of the LS/LT/SBC depending on the year. Great idea on paper and then I found out how large the belt drive, oil pan, manifolds were. It require a lot of custom parts to cut down on the size otherwise its not much smaller than an LS. I did pick one up out of an Astro van for dimensions and I scrapped it after measuring it...that's how disappointed I was. Some aftermarket but not anywhere near the amount for the SBC/LS. There aren't too many of the older engines left that can be turbocharged stock. Newer engines don't make much power naturally aspirated. Many different variations of the same engine with internal changes throughout the years. The newest LV3 engine is being phased out and its nothing special. Only worth it if budget is of no concern which leads me to the next engine.
Rotary - Mazda 13B-REW or better yet: 20B 3 rotor- Best engine fitment wise. Prohibitively expensive, not much customization needed due to being a very simple and compact engine. Some aftermarket. Lack of used engines. $5,500+ for a new long block, if you can find one. Requires more intensive maintenance and more frequent rebuilds. Power band more suited for a really lightweight rwd car...kind of like you know...the RX-7 it came in.
1UZ-FE - Toyota 4.0L V8...sounds great on paper, extremely reliable, cheap, very easy to find....for now. Dimensions are slightly larger than LS in every direction. Stock camshafts are terrible for power because of disappointing power when turbocharged.. No aftermarket. Stock crank trigger not supported by most standalone EMS.
Whatever I did with this car and the LS....it just works and this is with junk engines using very common or budget parts. None of the other engines would have given me the same result. I haven't even tapped into the turbo potential of this setup yet.
I am still shocked by how much better the car drove with a stock 200,000 miles junk 5.3L compared to a bolt on subaru engine. I have owned a car with almost all the engines I listed. I wouldn't change a thing if the budget was unlimited.
I also did not include engines that are just as capable but unreliable, expensive, and excessive customization.
BMW S63/N63 are expensive and overly complicated but they can make some good power, however, exhaust would be sticking out of the hood on a subaru.
Volkswagen Audi Group V8, specifically AUDI V8 -this one might actually fit better than the LS but they're too expensive. RS4, S8 and R8 engines aren't exactly plentiful either. Doesn't come turbocharged.
Mercedes V8 - M157 is a decent engine but not very compact or cheap. I would have to buy the whole 63 AMG car. Where would I get replacement parts?
There is also the idea of using a scratch engineered engine....that is a lot of money and time for a very niche idea. Neutron engines K48 is an example of this, bunch of custom parts, overly complicated, requires excessive customization, uncertain reliability....sounds a lot like the BMW engine.
Last edited by Sway Tale; 07-27-2022 at 04:31 PM.
Reason: Expanded wall of text
I have come to the conclusion that doing a twin turbo setup in this car is more complicated than I originally planned two years ago....Should have just gone single or kept it NA. On the positive, side there is plenty of clearance around the downpipe and wastegate dump. The CS130D provided more space than I was hoping for.
I decided to merge the wastegates back into the exhaust, hopefully it doesn't reduce power output too much. I don't care much for hype or attention so no need for atmosphere dumps...I also don't want exhaust inside the car. I was trying to have the screamer pipes go all the way to rear bumper and I even tried to put mufflers on them..but alas, the space not hereth exist
I haven't updated this because I have not made any progress.
Did some work on the hood. I really wanted to full cowl but it wouldn't let me open the hood all the way so I had to make the end piece removeable. More pics on this later...
The idea:
What the car looks like now:
I finished the exhaust on the twin turbo setup:
And then I scrapped it....I am starting from scratch again. I did not like the way it came out, too many complications
I installed the QuarterMaster HRB. So far I like it better than the CM, it has more disengagement travel and sits deeper in the bellhousing. However the pedal feel is inconsistent and it require some clearancing to install it, its a tight exact fit.
Works with all the common bearings
I finished rebuilding this transmission only to realize that you can retrofit the oil pump into it....contemplating doing that even though I already installed all the seals.
In the meantime I have been using it as a daily driver with no A/C, no P/S with huge sticky tires and a 4 inch exhaust with only a straight through muffler... At least it gets 20mpg with a cylinder bore taper of 0.01"
So I did the next most logical thing, I got my **** together and focused on better life priorities...I started working on the car outside and converted to a motor plate:
11-19-2021, 08:16 PM
