Sway Tale

From the Crown Speed Lab block party in NYC earlier this year


That is the normal reaction when people see the car, apparently.
Anyway no updates because I also own a chevy and its broken.

I am cooking up a new idea to use a mid plate without motor mounts. Has anyone ever mounted a mid/motor plate to a subframe? How about a midplate with no front motor plate?

Visual reference. Red arrows point to where the subaru motor mounts bolt up, green outline is space not used by the LS block, blue lines are nothing


I am considering measuring crankcase pressure and using it as a compensation for ignition timing/boost/engine load. Anybody have any experience on Holley Terminator X vs AEM infinity? Not interested in simplicity, I just don't care to buy a terminator X and then reply to this thread about what it can or cannot do compared to the AEM infinity. The holley is really expensive compared to the series 3 I already own. I make my own harness so I don't consider that anyway. Any comparison between the standalone EMS from "pro tuners" has been useless because well...they have a monetary interest in their work.



Some ideas for valve cover venting. My current setup works but I would like to vent the valley pan to the valve covers, just experimenting.

This is a radium 11.8mm press in fitting, meant for some toyota. Stock valve cover breather hole is 9-10mm. Stock hole can also be tapped for 1/8" NPT, its a hair too big but it works.



Its too tight of a fit with stock coil brackets. The 10AN blocks the connector for 34mm tall fuel injectors (ie; stock LS3). Without the stock brackets and/or taller fuel injectors its fine.


Valley pan vent


Top is a Holley cover which can also use the press in fitting. Left is a stock valve cover with the PCV vent removed.


I welded a 10AN ORB on my cover originally but a press in fitting would also work, it also sits lower and causes less headaches but they are pricey. The 11.8mm press in fitting is too small for that but radium also sells a 17.5 and an 18mm version.




ATGATT is important when welding



Using this front sump sikky pan and the improved racing scraper required more trimming than I though

lemming104

I'm kind of interested in what you've done here for the engine-to-transmission adapter stackup--it seems to me like a FWD-converted STI gearbox might be a viable option for mid-rear engine kit cars using an LS or similar.

Skimming through this thread, it looks like you're using an adapter plate fabricated by Subarugears, and probably this concentric release bearing from Clutch Masters: https://clutchmasters.com/i-30500971...twin-disc.html You're using a multi-disc clutch for an STI, and you had Clutch Masters make a custom flywheel with the STI clutch bolt pattern and ring gear, but with a custom spacing and a GM LS 6-bolt hub. Do you remember what you needed to have them do for spacing? What are you using for a pilot bearing? I'm guessing it's retained in the flywheel, since there's no way the Subaru input shaft is long enough to stab into the recess on the GM crank.

I find this all very interesting because the STI gearbox is pretty good, at least in its normal AWD configuration, and I figure the gearset would probably hold up just fine in 2WD. The other transaxle options for mid-engined vehicles all kind of suck--you're either kludging something together by running a Porsche gearbox upside-down, or you're paying $11K for a new Graziano transaxle and some ungodly amount for an Audi R8 clutch kit. The STI 6-speed may actually be a compelling alternative.

Sway Tale

The flywheel height and pilot bearing depends on the adapter plate and clutch setup. Ring gear and starter play a role as well, cant use the LS starter. You don't necessarily need a concentric release bearing. You can use a stock style single disc pull clutch with the LS, it just doesn't hold much torque.

The STI 6MT may sound like a good idea but I don't see it. It only works well in a subaru because the whole chassis is designed around a center differential.

Before you get too excited about the STI transmission here is some things I have encountered:

Pros:
Transmission casing is very strong
Gears are large, 85mm shaft centerline spacing
Reverse lockout is simple and effective
Relatively priced and very common, manufactured since 2000, JDM MY2001 sti had them
JDM Forester and USDM Legacy 6MT cars come with wide gear ratios, decent top speed and cruising rpm
JDM STI came with close range gear ratios, racing oriented
Available with different gear ratios, LSD, center differential type
3.90 front differential ratio

Cons:
The transmission sits a steep angle in a subaru and the overall height/shape of the trans is not typical. It was meant to house a front differential and has an internal output shaft.
Uses a large subframe and a pitch stop to support the weight and driveline angle
Oil pan and oiling designed around a steep driveline angle
Internal oil pump only came OEM until mid MY2007
Very heavy (over 200lbs with stock diffs) compared to TKX (100ish lbs) and T56/TR6060 Magnum (125ish lbs).
Some parts are Hitachi based tech originally being used by Nissan since the 1980s
USDM STI gear ratios are dumb, unevenly spaced 5th and 6th vs 1st-4th
USDM MY2004-2006 STI has short ratio JDM 1st-4th, USDM MY2007+ has wide ratio 1st-4th, all years have the useless 0.971/0.756 5th and 6th
JDM legacy 6MT comes with the dumb USDM STI gear ratios
Keyway change for gears in 2007, cannot swap gears between newer and older transmissions RalliSpec in NJ sells a keyway adapter to solve this issue. Forester STi and Legacy with "STi trans" have different keyways for the gears.
1st gear ratio is 3.636 regardless of market
OEM front LSD sucks, 2004 STI was a clutch type locker it was actually a cam and pawl AP suretrac (mechanical locker but not helical).., which parts are hard to come by, later years were helical which suck.
Front diff ring gear diameter is pretty small, diff to side bearing centering is usually way off on used STI transmissions. Compliments of launching on tarmac.
Expensive electromagnetic differential that needs to be welded or replaced with a cheapish ($400-800) spool for a 2wd setup
Uncommon output splines, rare and fragile CV joints, overly expensive axles. Again, thank you Nissan and Hitachi. Upside is Skyline GTR and subaru share front hub splines. Which brings me to...R160 differentials have weak pinions
Input shaft is a Honda/Nissan 24 spline ~1" shaft
6MT uses a 240mm diameter clutch disc, cannot go larger because the bellhousing will not fit a larger pressure plate. This limits torque.
Converting to a push style multi disc clutch isn't cheap nor pleasant to drive
Input shaft splines are only 35mm in length, 7.25" triple disc clutch barely fits
Neutral and Reverse switch are funky, don't always switch right away, need to be replaced on most used transmissions
Gear synchros and especially shift forks are absolute trash. I have plenty of used transmissions with various synchro issues, its never 3rd or 4th. I am not counting the one I damaged with the LS.
The shift fork pads are plastic, they wear out really fast which causes the damage to the synchros and the only accessible alternative (other than DIY) are $1,500 billet PPG forks.
Speed sensor runs off the front diff and attached to "bellhousing", MY2008+ no longer has one but can be modified to fit one.
Bellhousing is integral, can be removed from casing by removing the main shaft...the entire transmission needs to be disassembled
Input shaft and main shaft are one piece, PPG sells a $12,000 gearset conversion with a T56 style input shaft that can be removed from the main shaft


Porsche and Graziano gearboxes are not all sunshine and rainbows either. XShift offers many gear set conversions for popular transmissions as well but its sequential and pricey as well.

Why not a corvette transmission? Is the C5/C6/C7 transmission too large? C8 swap? C8R style Xtrac 6speed?

If you want an RR setup using subaru gearboxes, subarugears make a bunch of stuff for the TY75 5MT, even a reverse ring and pinion. Couple of places in the US also make something for the FFR 818 to use the subaru TY85 6MT.

I am just saying, the amount of things involved in using a subaru transmission is a bit much and no one except the FFR 818 community has any interest in it. The majority of 818s are using the TY75 5MT which is considerably cheaper and more common than the TY85 6MT. There is also a TY75 6MT which is very similar to the 5MT. The only problem with all that is the 818 uses a subaru engine.

G Atsma

Corvette C5-6-7 are not transaxles in the traditional sense with the diff between the clutch/converter and the trans. The trans sits AHEAD of the diff, making for a LOOONG combo.

JoshHefnerX

There is a company in New Zealand that makes a kit to convert the trans to mid-rear. If i remember it pulled the center diff and replaced with gears... maybe named Bremer? Getting old and memory doesn't work well. But gearing on subys is generally not the best match.

If I find the compan. I'll post it.

lemming104

Factory Five also has parts (intended for their 818 kit car) to convert either the STI or (much weaker) 5-speed gearboxes to FWD, for installation in a mid-rear layout. In both cases, it's basically replacing the center diff with a spool, removing the rear propshaft output, then sealing the hole it would normally come out of. This shortens the transmission by a couple of inches, basically cutting the trans off right about where the shifter clevis is. In the case of the STI box, it's like $300 worth of parts for something pre-fabricated and doesn't look like a very difficult conversion to do.

As G Atsma points out, the Corvette transaxle is not appropriate for MR layout cars unless you have a very long wheelbase or shove the cockpit very far forward. Most of the popular MR layout kit vehicles simply do not have enough room for this, so "flipping" a Porsche G50 or G96, using a Graziano (expensive) or fancy Sadev or Xtrac motorsport gearbox (even more expensive) are more common practices than using the Corvette parts.

I should probably check how steep the driveline angle is on my FXT (which actually has an early JDM 6-speed gearbox in it). I have an 818, in which I'm currently using a 5-speed, and that's actually mounted pretty flat to the chassis. Having owned a couple of STI 6-speeds, the biggest concerns I'd have about using one in a MR application are the variations in front diff design over the years (some used AP Suretrac, some used helical LSDs), and not knowing whether the front ring and pinion would handle a high-HP engine in a 2WD application. The gearing ratios are indeed also a downside, although that all partially depends on the tire height of whatever vehicle it'd be going into.

I was thinking about the STI gearbox as an option because I was looking at various MR kit vehicles with enough room for a V8 (particularly Superlite's SL-C and GT-R), and the transmission options for such a build are all either expensive, difficult to find, or both. The STI gearbox is not cheap, but it is relatively inexpensive compared to the Graziano gearbox (generally regarded as the "best" option), far cheaper than the motorsport gearboxes nobody sane would ever use in a street car, and not really any more of a hack than the stuff people are doing with Porsche gearboxes. I think it may yet be a viable option for street-oriented builds.

The availability of multi-disc clutches for the STI box isn't something I'd previously thought much about, as I've never owned a Subaru with enough torque to need more than the factory STI clutch and "pull" style release fork.

Edit: I actually just used an angle finder on the 5-speed gearbox in my 818. Assuming that the flat block-off plate at the back of the trans is perpendicular to the mainshaft (I don't see why it wouldn't be), the driveline is installed slighly "nose down", the opposite of what you'd normally see in a front engined car.

Sway Tale

I know what it is and it fits just fine in LMP style cars. I was implying if it would be too big for the application......



The cost adds up, a lot of custom parts...~$3,000 for a fresh transmission and at least another ~$3,000 to convert it for use with a Mid engine LS... A used racing transaxle isn't that much more. I would definitely avoid the Porsche transaxles. What about Audi?
How much torque does the 5MT support in the 818? It is a very light and cheap transmission. I wouldn't mind having to swap one out every once in a while. And if I remember correctly, the STI 240mm clutch kit fits inside the bellhousing.
If you still have subframe spacers and/or a forester trans crossmember, that skews the angle a bit.
6MT transmission mount is a little shorter in height.
The 240mm single disc clutches work for regular street driving. They don't work for road racing, they start to slip after 15-20 minutes. Everybody with subarus seems to use the exedy multi disc setup, I have yet to attempt making that flywheel and clutch work. I think its an 8.5" setup.
FFR must have put some thought into the oil level...Maybe it just doesn't matter on the 5MT. The 818 was originally setup for only the 5MT.

But you probably know all of this already. What kind of driving are you going to do with the SLC?

lemming104

I wonder how much of the mount angle with the 6-speed in GD WRXes and the like is due to the rather severe shortage of space in the tunnel. I put one in my Forester with the engine still in the car, and it was a bit of a shoehorn to get it in. Out of curiosity, I should measure the angle in that vehicle sometime. I've removed all of the body lift hardware (spacers, brackets, crossmembers, etc.) and swapped for Impreza equivalents where possible, although I can't remember which trans mount bushing I'm using.

I'm really not a fan of the TY75* transmissions; although I suppose they work OK in their original application and I'm using one in my 818 because that's what came out of the donor car. They're just not as nice to use as the 6-speed, and I don't trust the design at higher power levels. We'll see how long it lasts in the 818, especially when I eventually get bored and throw a bigger turbo on it.

A quick search seemed to indicate that the less desirable Porsche transmissions are currently commanding $7K+ rebuilt, and the more desirable ones get up over $10K. Graziano starts at something like $11K for a new one, but you're potentially locked into an ecosystem with $2500 clutch kits. I don't know what the other options are; it looks like Mendeola/Weddle options are all pretty expensive if you're buying them new, and a lot of those transmissions appear to be sequential, rather than a regular synchromesh H-pattern gearbox, which is what I would prefer to use if I were building something like an SL-C for street use.

Sway Tale

The angle of the driveline has to do with weight distribution, suspension, steering and transmission sharing the same space. Subaru made the best of the 60/40. The boxer crankshaft center line is really high compared to any other sports car

I usually remove the front subframe and engine if I need to pull the transmission

You should have the 6MT mount if you did the whole swap. 5MT mount shouldn't fit.

Ok, you got me. I am developing my setup into a kit.

TrendSetter

i had an aem v2 on my evo and it was complete garbage, id never buy an infinity. when i asked for help they didnt give a **** in the least.
my 5.3 wagon has a terminator x but im wanting to switch it to haltech. i have a nexus for my bb car im currently building.

Sway Tale

I had similar experiences with AEM V1 and V2, poor starting, bad crank sync, stock wiring causing issues, phantom misfire, software bugs, having to copy paste in to a new file to fix, unresponsive connection... V1/V2 has plenty of issues.

I don't know who manufactured those old models but the infinity is made by engine labs which will sell you an infinity for a lot less than AEM. However it doesn't come with firmware, much like Motec. YES IT DOES, it also comes with engine simulation software and a console to build your own software for running/tuning the engine, the Series 5 and Series 7 is actually an EL129. You have to write the programming yourself or buy an AEM version.

The infinity is annoyingly complicated but it has a few functions that no one discusses in detail for any EMS. Such as closed loop controls, CAN signal integration, timing sync, etc.

The Haltech looks promising, I've briefly used it live and didn't have much time to explore the software. The pricing is really steep though and I found the software interface very messy. To be objective, it was a 1500 and I was just trying to log fueling and adjust open loop boost control.

I know everyone praises the Holley systems because they're simple and have plenty of support. What if I wanted to change ignition timing based based on multiple compensation axis? Ie; oil temp, coolant temp, and vehicle speed have an effect on target boost, fueling, and ignition timing. Would this all be separate tables, compensation based values, or a hard cut limiter?

I'm trying to keep my **** box together for 30 minute runs. The Edelbrock PF4 is far simpler than any EMS I have ever seen but at the same time you cannot edit any tables and it doesn't use knock sensors.

TrendSetter

best thing you can do is download the software and poke around in it. holley and haltech for sure you can do that, but almost any standalone has the software freely available.
with the terminator x you can do timing adjustments with advanced tables, and the axes can be almost anything. limiters arent dynamically adjustable, or able to be activated in software without eating up outputs, they ONLY activate on a wired input so you can never adjust the rpm but you could use a software-defined output fed into the input to control when it happens. i have a 2step/anti lag i do that with. termx only has a main rev limit and a single secondary one. i believe the hp and dom have two secondary rev limiters. the holley can io box adds 8 each inputs and outputs to expand the termx but none of those IO can be used for activating things or for predefined functions like AC, rev limiters, boost control, Fans, etc. they can only be used in advanced tables and logging. i found that out AFTER buying it. yay.
the HP and dominators are similar but a little more powerful. dominator has a ton more i/o.
both holley and haltech are pretty powerful and have modern features and seem to stay up to date. the big difference that ive heard is haltech support is excellent and holley is poor. i had a few issues with my terminator x and its very time consuming to get someone on the phone to help, then they never really fixed anything just gave me 'stuff' to try that got me off the phone, so if you buy, buy from a vendor that offers support IMO.

lemming104

Looking at my actual Holley (Terminator X Max) install, Spark gives you the following:

1. Base timing table (RPM and MAP to degrees timing advance)
2. Cranking spark (just a single timing value until it hits "run" RPM)
3. Launch retard based on some input
4. Knock sensor parameters--a single value for "retard per ring" (how much timing it'll pull each time the knock sensor registers) and "restore degrees per second" and a small RPM vs MAP table where the values are the maximum number of degrees you want it to be able to pull
5. Timing versus coolant temp--a simple adder/subtractor based on coolant temp only; no other inputs
6. Timing versus air temp--same as coolant temp, just a simple adder/subtractor with only one input

Fuel gives you the following:
1. Main fuel map (RPM and MAP to VE % or actual air flow, depending on how you've got it set up)
2. Target A/F (RPM and MAP to target A/F ratio)
3. Alpha-N idle fuel (useful if you have some giant cam, I guess)
4. Acceleration enrichment (lots of different parameters here, they're all tables that map a single variable to an enrichment percentage)
5. Temperature enrichment (Coolant temp and MAP to enrichment multiplier, also an air temp enrichment that's just air temp to enrichment percentage)

You CAN build additional timing/fuel modifiers using custom tables, but you're stuck with the limitations noted above. You get:
1. Four "1-D" tables where a single input maps to a single output
2. Four "2-D" tables where two inputs map to a single output
3. One 1-D per-gear table (per-gear logic only works with auto trans or with an input configured as a gear selector)
4. One 2-D per-gear table

For all of the custom tables, you can define simple switched or thresholded inputs--for example, you can activate a table only if oil pressure is below some specific PSI, or if RPM is above some value.

So, to answer your original question directly, there are built-in modifiers for timing based on coolant and air temp, and you'd have to use up a custom table to get one based on oil temp if you have a sensor for that. There's already some logic to allow you to make fueling richer/leaner based on air and coolant temp, but again, you'd need to use a custom table to get an offset based on oil temp if you wanted that. Fuel can be done either as a raw offset, a raw multiplier, a target A/F offset, target A/F multiplier, etc.

One of the sillier things I've done with mine is use a 2-D table that uses vehicle speed and RPM to do boost-by-gear on a manual transmission without any additional inputs. This has done wonders to make a ~700 whp manual transmission Mustang vaguely controllable on plain street tires.

You should totally download a copy of the Holley software and see if you like what you can do with it. As others have stated, the Dominator is more capable than the Terminator X and X Max, but that's largely a question of how many inputs and outputs you need, and how many custom tables you need to achieve what you want. I agree that Holley's support can be hard to reach, and that EFI-specific support may be hard to come by, so you might be better served by Haltech or one of the other more motorsport-oriented offerings if you're not comfortable relying on forums as your first source of information. I'm fine with this for a "hobby" street car, but I don't know how I'd feel about it if I were building a fancy track car.

Sway Tale

Thank you. I am going to play with the holley and haltech software and try to post something useful.

@lemming104 seems like the Terminator X offers somewhat less features but its more straightforward and not as daunting because there are less options. On the flip side the it achieves the exact same thing as the infinity and can be purchased initially with DBW and/or transmission control for $150-$300 extra. I keep forgetting a lot of people run an electronic automatic transmission with the LS.

@TrendSetter Interesting part you bring up about the Holley CAN I/O box and how the Holley terminator X interacts with it.
I didn't even think about that. I am currently using an AEM CAN expansion module with the AEM display but it cannot be used with the infinity. I think running them on seperate CAN channels is a requirement. Never tried them on the same channel.
Series 3 has no on-board logging capability, series 5 and 7 do. My AEM CD-7 display can log the infinity on its own over CAN. The holley I/O box is probably meant only for logging or display purposes like the AEM expansion modules.


With the infinity you are limited to predefined inputs based on you firmware cal (universal, LS specific, subaru, mitsubishi ,etc.) but you can re-purpose some of them. The output functions list is also predefined but the output list itself is configurable. ie; The VSS input pin, available pins, and sensor type/frequency configuration will vary based on calibration



Series 5 and 7 can do high and low side switched output but series 3 can only do low side switched out put. Anybody even use a high side output anymore?



Dual Lambda and Lambda over CAN is supported by all Infinity models. Series 3 doesn't have a built in UEGO controller but you can add up to two lambda to controllers as an input, either 0-5V analog or CAN. Series 5 has a built in UEGO controller and Series 7 has two built in.
I use two AEM inline x-series UEGO controllers over CAN and it works without issues, lag, or any nonsense.




This part about the infinity sucks, the functions are predefined but the input pin is not. You can work around this though.



This is an important feature for me. I hate fudging tables just because there isn't a feature for shift cut.



Again most things are predefined but configurable, you have to work around the available options. This slightly limits my ideas but its better than nothing.




Ignition sync and trigger settings. Lots of adjustment. You are still limited to predefined tooth count, there are some universal trigger settings too. If you know how to write your own firmware then none of this is important. You are paying AEM not just to buy an infinity box but for the software and coding. I can't complain about the infinity hardware at all but AEM will not change their coding just because you need something. Sounds a lot like that fancy race car EMS everyone says is so great.......Motec
If there is a demand for a certain feature or engine type then AEM will update the firmware.....in a year or two like usual. Otherwise learn programming and engine theory or hire some who knows.

TrendSetter

if you really want to do weird ****, the haltech is probably your best bet. the nexus gets up there in price but its a pdm also. i believe the older 2500s use almost the same firmware/software though.
the terminator x is definitely geared toward a more basic user or someone new to efi. i got it and have been unhappy with it, but im an old school tech nerd and like to play with features and settings so it really wasnt the right fit for me to begin with, a dominator would have been better aside from the huge price differential.
the dominators can get pretty flexible if you are creative enough with the IO and advanced tables. the haltech seems to have a lot more pre-defined functionality that the dominator is designed to be custom made with generic io and tables.
its definitely a big investment in time and money for any of them and its a big hassle to decide to switch. im in the middle of that now, i have a termx in my wagon, with a smartwire on the shelf for it, but i really want to get away from holley in favor of haltech. but the wagon runs and if i go to the haltech it would be a HUGE effort.
life and times in the fast lane, right?

Sway Tale

Haltech is on my list of things to try out. Its very popular with the rotary crowd in my area. I don't mind switching, its not that much work on my setup. Besides I can only improve and build upon changes, even if I have to switch back.
I was hoping the dominator offered more than just 50 inputs over the Terminator X, it just seemed strange for it to be otherwise.

I downloaded the terminator X software and I am at a loss for words.
I understand now why its so popular and why "professional" tuners are obsessed with it. should have done this sooner.

Its as close to idiot proof as you can get for dyno tuners, especially if you are using a base cal.
It reminds me of how simple the PF4 is. If you could edit the cals in the PF4 with a PC it would probably look like the Terminator X.

I should have originally picked up a Terminator X instead of the PF4. The price difference is negligible, around $200 I think.



PF4 engine configuration:



I mean seriously you can switch the tables in the Holley to self interpolating points



I get this feeling Holley makes the PF4 for Edelbrock







A lot of things are predefined as well like other EMS. I haven't figured out if you can configure your own function based on available inputs.

I think I can do a shift cut this way but then I cannot setup anti-lag at the same time. I am still exploring the options so if someone knows a better way, let me know.

TrendSetter

it sounds like you will very quickly run out of IO and features with a termx, if you go holley i think you should strongly consider the dominator. plus the dominator actually has more features and functionality than the termx.

Sway Tale

You're right. I am looking at the Holley EFI software for the HP and Dominator and its very similar but gives you those advanced options that the Terminator X doesn't have.

Sway Tale

Thank you @lemming104 I get now what it can do


I figured out how you can do a custom igniton based compensation on the Terminator X. You can add it through Advanced ICF. I can not figure this out on the Holley HP/dominator though...



It seems the Terminator X software is more advanced or the Holley EFI software is missing ICFs.

Sway Tale

I am liking the Haltech more than the AEM. The features are there, a lot of them. A lot easier to setup and plenty of options. Most of the motorsport and interesting features are predefined on a list. Unlike the AEM it gives you a long list of items you can add or remove.

I am not liking the price though and the fact that this is an Elite 2500 and there are not that many input/output pins available. It does requires a modern PC/laptop, too slow to run on anything budget, minor software bugs, forces you to make a Haltech user account, and requires an internet connection to properly setup.

Overall, pretty impressive but for an Elite 2500 without any harness is $2000 and it can only do one DBW throttle body.

For reference retail prices without harness (except for Terminator X):
Holley Dominator - $2250
Haltech Elite 2000 - $1500 No DBW
Holley HP - $1500 No DBW
Terminator X Max - $1,300-$1,600
Terminator X - $950 No DBW, No 3.5" screen
AEM Series 3 - $800 No DBW
AEM Series 5 - $1,600
AEM Series 7 - $2,650 does Dual DBW

Trigger setup:



Flex fuel is integrated:




Assigning an input to a sensor:






Ignition options:



Set it up any way you want:



Adding a custom sensor input:



Creating you own compensation table: