And now for something completely different...
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Teching In
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And now for something completely different... There is a project I have been thinking about, and now with several LSx AWD/4x4 threads, I don't feel weird talking about it. I love two-seater Clubman-type cars that have been converted to single seat with a tonneau cover over the passenger seat, and this unused space has gotten me thinking..."What if the engine went there instead of in front?" At first this seems unlikely, but the way modern 4x4s are situated with the front differential sitting next to the engine with unequal length independent axles, it seems like some of those traits could be adapted to the overall concept. Have the engine sitting in the passenger seat with the transmission behind it, a transfer case behind that, and the rear differential housing bolted to the rear of the transfer case much like the Corvette differential housing is bolted to the end of the transmission. All of that would make it possible for the driveshaft going to the front diff to run up the middle of the car like driveshafts usually are, and just have a 240Z diff or something similar flipped upside down with custom control arms and knuckles at the ends of the axles for steering. Yeah, it would be a scratch-built car, but that's nothing new, and it would allow a short front and rear, a compact body. Let me know what you think and throw some ideas my way. It's definitely not something for the weak-hearted, but with enough time and money (or substitute some of the money with time, time, and more time) it should be doable. 
TECH Resident
Joined: Dec 2004
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From: Baltimore, MD.
OK, what's a Clubman-type car? I can't say as I've ever heard of them. Got any pics?
Putting the engine in the space usually occupied by a passenger is an interesting suggestion. I would think that it would radically alter the car's left to right bias. Not that altering the weight bias is necessarily a bad thing.
Kinda like the Nascar Super Modifieds, with their extreme left hand weight bias. Pretty wacky looking cars, but man do they run ovals fast. Look here for a quick example http://members.aol.com/bngsupers/main.html . Obviously for them, where they only turn left, all that left hand weight is a significant bonus in terms of cornering power. Helps to balance the workload that the left and right side tires see.
For a street car where you will turn left and right, I'm not sure that kind of weight balance (or unbalance as the case would probably be) would be beneficial. Maybe it wouldn't be allthat bad, but I still think the bias would lead to pretty funny handling. Something that you really should consider the effects of (IMO at least).
'Dreamin'
Putting the engine in the space usually occupied by a passenger is an interesting suggestion. I would think that it would radically alter the car's left to right bias. Not that altering the weight bias is necessarily a bad thing.
Kinda like the Nascar Super Modifieds, with their extreme left hand weight bias. Pretty wacky looking cars, but man do they run ovals fast. Look here for a quick example http://members.aol.com/bngsupers/main.html . Obviously for them, where they only turn left, all that left hand weight is a significant bonus in terms of cornering power. Helps to balance the workload that the left and right side tires see.
For a street car where you will turn left and right, I'm not sure that kind of weight balance (or unbalance as the case would probably be) would be beneficial. Maybe it wouldn't be allthat bad, but I still think the bias would lead to pretty funny handling. Something that you really should consider the effects of (IMO at least).
'Dreamin'
On The Tree
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Thread Starter
Teching In
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I'm very familiar with the MS8s, and the Healey is a pretty good way to think of it. As far as the weight bias is concerned, how do you think someone being in a car affects bias? The extra weight of the engine and transmission would probably be comparable to someone sitting in a RHD car with the engine in the usual place. About the turbo Hayabusa...no torque, too finnicky an engine (no weight to keep up momentum you need to keep the throttle very steady which is harder with your fot than with your hand) and where's the reverse? I have given the whole project a great deal of thought. 
what are the advantages of mounting the engine next to the driver?
except for the skin melting exhaust armrest.
engine+accy's-trans-transfer case
definently alot heavier than anyone I know.
If you want to give the project more thought, break out the CAD books and draw one.
except for the skin melting exhaust armrest.
engine+accy's-trans-transfer case
definently alot heavier than anyone I know.
If you want to give the project more thought, break out the CAD books and draw one.
TECH Resident
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From: Baltimore, MD.
Originally Posted by Gen3Benz
engine+accy's-trans-transfer case
definently alot heavier than anyone I know.
definently alot heavier than anyone I know.
Compare that to the engine, access, trans, and transfer case.
Engine (use alum block LS1) = 440 lbs
Access (assume PS, Alt, PCM) = 25 lbs
Transmission (Assume T56 w/clutch or 4L60E w/TC) = 185 lbs wet
Transfer case (assume mag case single speed awd ie BW4472) = 70 lbs
Total Drivetrain weight = 720 lbs
I won't guarantee that the above numbers are 100% accurate, but I think most are close enough for estimating purposes.
My point was that you're likely to have a significant right side weight bias that you shouldn't just blindly ignore. I like the idea of a lightweight AWD car with good balance. Just think that the engine location probably doesn't need to be in the passenger's seat. I think you could get just as good a weight balance (50/50 front to rear and probably left to right) leaving the engine in basically the stock location, maybe set back a wee bit. And if you're really concerned about balancing the driver, use a transfer case and front axle that drop the opposite side of the driver (for a US vehicle use a right hand drop tcase and axle, for a right hand drive, use a left hand drop tcase and axle). That weight should just about offset the live load of an average driver.
Again, don't want to sound critical of your project, just that there may be some issues that you want to consider.
'Dreamin'
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From: Fat Chance Hotel
You would be better off using an AWD transaxle. Then you could put the engine in the front or back and send the power through the driveshaft under the car.
This is an example of a tranversely mounted engine, but systems exist to mount the engine longitudinally. You would decide between the two based on limitations of the chassis or personal preference.
This is an example of a tranversely mounted engine, but systems exist to mount the engine longitudinally. You would decide between the two based on limitations of the chassis or personal preference.
Thread Starter
Teching In
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First off, I'm not lightweight. On a good day I weigh about 280lbs. Also, a lot of vehicle wight is, or can be, on the driver side: battery, foot controls, brake booster, master cylinder, proportioning valve, steering assembly, a heavier-than-normal seat could be used, fuel cell (obviously the weight fluxuates), and if it came down to it i could literally weigh down the side to get the weight distribution where I want it. I appreciate you "testiness" because it encourages me to think, and I'm not overlooking anything. As for the FWD-based AWD...torque steer, excessive forward weight, and lack of available stout drivetrains (I don't want to rely on a heavily modified drivetrain).
