LS1 swap into my 3rd gen issues
05-08-2006, 10:36 AM
#1
LS1 swap into my 3rd gen issues HI:
This weekend some friends and I were performing the LS1 swap into my 1984 Trans Am. Engine/ trans is an '02, and the engine mount kit is from F-Body motorsports.
I'm discovering the following issues, and was wondering if you have any suggestions for solving them.
1- the AC compressor won't fit. Obviously, the compressor interferes with the crossmember. I don't know if there's another compressor that would fit. I don't have the welding/ fabrication skills to modify the crossmember. For now I'm foregoing the AC but since I'm in CA I'd like to use it if possible. Any suggestions?
2- The windshield wiper motor interferes with the smog equipment and fuel rail for the engine. I can relocate the smog part, but not the fuel rail. Is there any other wiper motor that would be smaller/ mount slightly different to clear the fuel rail? My wiper motor does not have delay, either, (if it matters. I think I remember the older cars having larger wiper motor assemblies if they had wiper delay)
3- How do I bleed the hydraulic clutch cylinder? Do I do this before I install it onto the clutch/ bellhousing? Can I use any hydraulic fluid (power steering fluid) or is there specific "hydraulic clutch cylinder" fluid?
4- Is there any factory bellows/ air tubes that will work on the third gen car for locating the MAF and the air inlet temp sensor? Not sure if I can grab something from a junkyard or if I need to get one from a junkyard.
Any experience or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
thanks!
This weekend some friends and I were performing the LS1 swap into my 1984 Trans Am. Engine/ trans is an '02, and the engine mount kit is from F-Body motorsports.
I'm discovering the following issues, and was wondering if you have any suggestions for solving them.
1- the AC compressor won't fit. Obviously, the compressor interferes with the crossmember. I don't know if there's another compressor that would fit. I don't have the welding/ fabrication skills to modify the crossmember. For now I'm foregoing the AC but since I'm in CA I'd like to use it if possible. Any suggestions?
2- The windshield wiper motor interferes with the smog equipment and fuel rail for the engine. I can relocate the smog part, but not the fuel rail. Is there any other wiper motor that would be smaller/ mount slightly different to clear the fuel rail? My wiper motor does not have delay, either, (if it matters. I think I remember the older cars having larger wiper motor assemblies if they had wiper delay)
3- How do I bleed the hydraulic clutch cylinder? Do I do this before I install it onto the clutch/ bellhousing? Can I use any hydraulic fluid (power steering fluid) or is there specific "hydraulic clutch cylinder" fluid?
4- Is there any factory bellows/ air tubes that will work on the third gen car for locating the MAF and the air inlet temp sensor? Not sure if I can grab something from a junkyard or if I need to get one from a junkyard.
Any experience or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
thanks!
05-08-2006, 10:57 AM
#2
Im sure someone can answer better than me...but since Im getting ready to drop in mine, Ill share my info with you.
1) if you want to use the 4th gen A/C...you will either have to notch your crossmember, or get a tubular k-member. Notching isnt really that bad. Look at some local machine shops and ask them what they'd charge. The other option here is to use your thirdgen A/C compressor. You will either need to buy or fabricat some brackets, but Ive seen it done so that the compressor sits up top on the passenger side of the motor. Makes lines a lot easier to work out too. Search around, I think their might be someone who sells them or has the plans to make them. Personally...Im going with the 4th gen A/C since my 3rd gen stuff never worked too good in the first place.
2) Never heard of any interference with the wiper motor...that said, I would just fiddle with things and see if you can get it to clear. Is it hitting the wiper motor itself? Or just the washer pump. I think the washer pump mounts up there with the wiper motor on that year correct? Thats the only part I can image making contact. If it is...just remove the pump, and install a universal one. Or do what Im doing and use the 4th gen washer bottle/pump. Takes a little bit of fabbing, but its easy.
3) If your clutch hydraulics are "opened" and need to be bleed, I believe you have to do it after everything is installed. Pedals have to be hung, slave cylinder needs to be mounted, etc etc. Do a search on here there are plenty of threads about bleeding your clutch. When I removed the motor and trans from my doner car...I left all of the hydraulics connected and intact. SO Im hoping I wont have to bleed. Just one less thing to do before the test drive. Oh and Im pretty sure you use good old DOT 3 brake fluid.
4) Not sure if any factory hoses will work for intake ducting. Most people make something up. Check out this site though.
http://store.airflo.com/rubber-hoses---clamps.html
Look around on there. They have plenty of elbows, elbows that reduce, couplers, clamps, etc etc. Might be a couple other sites with that sort of stuff. Just measure for the correct diameters and all.
Hope that helps ya alittle!
Good luck and post some pics of your progress!
Justin
1) if you want to use the 4th gen A/C...you will either have to notch your crossmember, or get a tubular k-member. Notching isnt really that bad. Look at some local machine shops and ask them what they'd charge. The other option here is to use your thirdgen A/C compressor. You will either need to buy or fabricat some brackets, but Ive seen it done so that the compressor sits up top on the passenger side of the motor. Makes lines a lot easier to work out too. Search around, I think their might be someone who sells them or has the plans to make them. Personally...Im going with the 4th gen A/C since my 3rd gen stuff never worked too good in the first place.
2) Never heard of any interference with the wiper motor...that said, I would just fiddle with things and see if you can get it to clear. Is it hitting the wiper motor itself? Or just the washer pump. I think the washer pump mounts up there with the wiper motor on that year correct? Thats the only part I can image making contact. If it is...just remove the pump, and install a universal one. Or do what Im doing and use the 4th gen washer bottle/pump. Takes a little bit of fabbing, but its easy.
3) If your clutch hydraulics are "opened" and need to be bleed, I believe you have to do it after everything is installed. Pedals have to be hung, slave cylinder needs to be mounted, etc etc. Do a search on here there are plenty of threads about bleeding your clutch. When I removed the motor and trans from my doner car...I left all of the hydraulics connected and intact. SO Im hoping I wont have to bleed. Just one less thing to do before the test drive. Oh and Im pretty sure you use good old DOT 3 brake fluid.
4) Not sure if any factory hoses will work for intake ducting. Most people make something up. Check out this site though.
http://store.airflo.com/rubber-hoses---clamps.html
Look around on there. They have plenty of elbows, elbows that reduce, couplers, clamps, etc etc. Might be a couple other sites with that sort of stuff. Just measure for the correct diameters and all.
Hope that helps ya alittle!
Good luck and post some pics of your progress!
Justin
05-08-2006, 07:21 PM
#3
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On the wiper motor, I believe you need to swap out to the later style (87+ maybe) to clear it. F-body motorsports also sells a bracket kit to use a 89-92 fbody compressor and hoses on the LS1 motor without modding the crossmember.
Kevin D.
Kevin D.
05-14-2006, 11:38 AM
#4
Cool, thank you.
Yeah, my wiper motor interferes. It hits the fuel rail. It does appear to be the washer pump so I'll look into the 4th gen pump/ housing or the universal pump.
Noted on the 3rd gen compressors and brackets, thank you. I'll have to look into that, too.
And this weekend I've discovered that nothing on the 4th gen exhaust works on the 3rd gen car. at least not mine. I had read that the exhaust fits the 3rd gen, but it won't on mine. (manifolds and cats) both sides have to be compltely cut up and refabricated to clear the frame rails. The drivers side needs an 02 sensor relocated also, but at least I was warned about that on Fbodymotorsports.
and here I thought this would be an easy swap...
Yeah, my wiper motor interferes. It hits the fuel rail. It does appear to be the washer pump so I'll look into the 4th gen pump/ housing or the universal pump.
Noted on the 3rd gen compressors and brackets, thank you. I'll have to look into that, too.
And this weekend I've discovered that nothing on the 4th gen exhaust works on the 3rd gen car. at least not mine. I had read that the exhaust fits the 3rd gen, but it won't on mine. (manifolds and cats) both sides have to be compltely cut up and refabricated to clear the frame rails. The drivers side needs an 02 sensor relocated also, but at least I was warned about that on Fbodymotorsports.
and here I thought this would be an easy swap...
05-14-2006, 09:36 PM
#5
Hey man. Sorry you are still having issues. As for the exhaust...The stock manifolds SHOULD go right in no problems. But...Im pretty sure everything else has to be adapted. I was under the impression that the stock y-pipe for your 3rd gen will work with the LS1...but Im not positive. Ive decided to just splurge and get the Hawks headers and all. But then again the motor I bought came with long tubes...which wont work on the 3rd gen.
The swap really isnt TOO bad...the thing you have to do is research like crazy. Ive been reading stuff on the swap for atleast 3 or 4 years now. Now there a ton of people swapping these motors in...and a lot of aftermarket support for swappers, so things are a ton easier and the info is more readily available.
Dont give up! Just fiddle with the exhaust...or drive it with open headers to the exhaust shop and have them fab you a y-pipe or something.
Justin
The swap really isnt TOO bad...the thing you have to do is research like crazy. Ive been reading stuff on the swap for atleast 3 or 4 years now. Now there a ton of people swapping these motors in...and a lot of aftermarket support for swappers, so things are a ton easier and the info is more readily available.
Dont give up! Just fiddle with the exhaust...or drive it with open headers to the exhaust shop and have them fab you a y-pipe or something.
Justin
05-16-2006, 01:37 AM
#6
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Hey on the A/C bracket that FBodymotor sports make might not work for your application. If you have EGR then your in the same boat as me. Just realized this problem today 
Any idea guys?
Any idea guys?
05-16-2006, 05:18 AM
#7
Yeah...youre in cali so you have to keep the EGR huh? I guess there are a couple options... I dont know what year motor you are working with...
You could notch the crossmember. I really dont think a fab shop would charge much to do this. Actually...you dont even have to know how to weld. Just cut it, make some pieces up to make the notch, then take it to a prof. so he can zip it up. Ill be notching a crossmember probably within the next few days if you want pics and a step by step.
The other thing you can do...and now Im not positive... But you could get a PCM from an 01 - 02... assuming you arent using a 98 motor I guess. They didnt have EGR that I know of. So you shouldnt need it to pass emissions correct?? Im not 100% on the laws out there...and Im emissions exempt here, or I would probably be trying that.
OR...you can go the expensive route and get the tubular k-member so you clear the A/C and everything else. I got an extra k-member from another board member, so Ill be trying some different clearencing things to make the LS1 feel alittle more at home in my thirdgen. I was thinking about even doing the mods to my second crossmember thats still in the car and selling it as a ready to go LS1 swap piece. In any case...you still have a few options, so dont panic yet! What kind of car are you swapping into anyways?? A 3rd gen?
Justin
You could notch the crossmember. I really dont think a fab shop would charge much to do this. Actually...you dont even have to know how to weld. Just cut it, make some pieces up to make the notch, then take it to a prof. so he can zip it up. Ill be notching a crossmember probably within the next few days if you want pics and a step by step.
The other thing you can do...and now Im not positive... But you could get a PCM from an 01 - 02... assuming you arent using a 98 motor I guess. They didnt have EGR that I know of. So you shouldnt need it to pass emissions correct?? Im not 100% on the laws out there...and Im emissions exempt here, or I would probably be trying that.
OR...you can go the expensive route and get the tubular k-member so you clear the A/C and everything else. I got an extra k-member from another board member, so Ill be trying some different clearencing things to make the LS1 feel alittle more at home in my thirdgen. I was thinking about even doing the mods to my second crossmember thats still in the car and selling it as a ready to go LS1 swap piece. In any case...you still have a few options, so dont panic yet! What kind of car are you swapping into anyways?? A 3rd gen?
Justin
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05-16-2006, 10:12 AM
#8
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I think when you go to the ref. the need the VIN# off the old donor car. The VIN will say it all. I dont want to use the newer A/C compressor cause it wont be the same. Not cold enough and plus i have to get A/C lines made up. There has to be another way to work with the EGR??
05-16-2006, 11:16 AM
#10
The car is a 1984 T/ A. the engine is an '02 model from a WS-6 T/A.
Here in Ca to be legal you have to have the following (I spoke with the referee about this):
1- engine must be same year or newer. Can't legally swap in an older engine.
2- engine must be from same "type" of vehicle. Car engine to a car, can't use a truck engine in a car....
3- If the car is a 50 state (california emmision) car, then it needs a 50 state (california certified) engine. If it's not , then any newer engine will do. Fortunatlely, my car isn't a Ca car.
4- All emmisions from the donor engine/ car must be intact. all cats, 02 sensors in stock locations, etc. the engine must also have a data port so they can hook a computer up to it to read the OBD2. I had Speartech modify my wiring harness to add one of these.
Since my engine is an '02, I must retain the air pump assy, the charcoal canister, use the donor gas tank because it has another emmisions assembly on it.
The folks at Speartech told me that the airpump assy only runs for 90 seconds or so upon startup, then it's off the rest of the time. Bummer since I have to go through the trouble of hooking it up. (wiring, relays, etc)
I need to use the stock exhaust. At least the head pipes with the cats on it. I suppose I could get shorty tubular headers, but i was told the stock manifolds flow well. Long tubes are out of the question until I get the car certified. The driver side 02 sensor interferes with the crossmember. They show this on the f-bodymotorsports website ls1 install. I hope I can re-locate the 02 sensor on the cat entrance itself, as it's the only place it will fit. Hopefully they understand. I understand the referee is allowed to be discretionary on these types of issues. I'll just have to not **** the guy off
On my car it's the cats/ pipes that are the trouble. on the driver side the cat itself is OK, but the tube exiting it runs right into the frame rail. so it has to be cut/ relocated inwards to run back. Plus, I' have my fuel lines there. I need to have clearance so I don't cook the fuel/ torch the car.
The passenger cat does not fit. That has to be re angled to fit.
With the donor car came an SLP loudmouth exhaust. (the referee station does not care what exhaust is AFTER the cats) i have the rear half of this on my car, it'll be up to a good muffler shop to modify the cats (if they will even touch them) and connect it to the rest of the exhaust.
As for the AC- I already ordered the kit fomr F-body motorsports. I hope it will work.
Fortunately, theres' a good AC shop not far form me. I'm "hoping" they can add a 3rd gen compressor and make a working system. If anybody can it'll be them. (they supply parts to other AC shops in the San Fernando valley) I just hope I still have the AC wiring to my car. (I gutted the ac years ago) and now want to add it back
I appreciate all of your input and help. Thank you!
-BV
Here in Ca to be legal you have to have the following (I spoke with the referee about this):
1- engine must be same year or newer. Can't legally swap in an older engine.
2- engine must be from same "type" of vehicle. Car engine to a car, can't use a truck engine in a car....
3- If the car is a 50 state (california emmision) car, then it needs a 50 state (california certified) engine. If it's not , then any newer engine will do. Fortunatlely, my car isn't a Ca car.
4- All emmisions from the donor engine/ car must be intact. all cats, 02 sensors in stock locations, etc. the engine must also have a data port so they can hook a computer up to it to read the OBD2. I had Speartech modify my wiring harness to add one of these.
Since my engine is an '02, I must retain the air pump assy, the charcoal canister, use the donor gas tank because it has another emmisions assembly on it.
The folks at Speartech told me that the airpump assy only runs for 90 seconds or so upon startup, then it's off the rest of the time. Bummer since I have to go through the trouble of hooking it up. (wiring, relays, etc)
I need to use the stock exhaust. At least the head pipes with the cats on it. I suppose I could get shorty tubular headers, but i was told the stock manifolds flow well. Long tubes are out of the question until I get the car certified. The driver side 02 sensor interferes with the crossmember. They show this on the f-bodymotorsports website ls1 install. I hope I can re-locate the 02 sensor on the cat entrance itself, as it's the only place it will fit. Hopefully they understand. I understand the referee is allowed to be discretionary on these types of issues. I'll just have to not **** the guy off
On my car it's the cats/ pipes that are the trouble. on the driver side the cat itself is OK, but the tube exiting it runs right into the frame rail. so it has to be cut/ relocated inwards to run back. Plus, I' have my fuel lines there. I need to have clearance so I don't cook the fuel/ torch the car.
The passenger cat does not fit. That has to be re angled to fit.
With the donor car came an SLP loudmouth exhaust. (the referee station does not care what exhaust is AFTER the cats) i have the rear half of this on my car, it'll be up to a good muffler shop to modify the cats (if they will even touch them) and connect it to the rest of the exhaust.
As for the AC- I already ordered the kit fomr F-body motorsports. I hope it will work.
Fortunately, theres' a good AC shop not far form me. I'm "hoping" they can add a 3rd gen compressor and make a working system. If anybody can it'll be them. (they supply parts to other AC shops in the San Fernando valley) I just hope I still have the AC wiring to my car. (I gutted the ac years ago) and now want to add it back
I appreciate all of your input and help. Thank you!
-BV
05-16-2006, 03:49 PM
#12
Hey guys. As for the EGR and the ref go... My idea was that if you used a PCM out of an 02, you wouldnt need the EGR. Because the "VIN" is stored on the PCM. It will show that its an 2002 engine..even if its not. So you can ignore the EGR stuff. Atleast thats what I was thinking. If I ever go over 5000 miles in a year, and have to get emission tested, I plan to switch over to an 02 PCM because mine is a 99 PCM now, with the EGR stuff removed.
I hope that A/C bracket system works for you. I thought about using my 3rdgen stuff, but it never really worked that well. The 4th gen blew cold as ice before I started stripping it. So I figured Ide update to system and keep the engine bay clean since it mounts down below.
I hope that A/C bracket system works for you. I thought about using my 3rdgen stuff, but it never really worked that well. The 4th gen blew cold as ice before I started stripping it. So I figured Ide update to system and keep the engine bay clean since it mounts down below.
05-17-2006, 12:31 AM
#13
yeah, I'd love that diagram, thank you!
tuske350@yahoo.com if you want.
Hopefully I can get a working AC system. It gets hot in the san fernando valley sitting in traffic...
Thanks,
-BV
tuske350@yahoo.com if you want.
Hopefully I can get a working AC system. It gets hot in the san fernando valley sitting in traffic...
Thanks,
-BV
05-18-2006, 12:27 AM
#14
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No problem. Are you going to keep the 3rd gen A/C?? I have to look for it so ill get back to you. If not here then on thirdgen.org. Yeah it gets pretty HOT here in stockton!!
As for the PCM, They grab the VIN# out of the ECM?? I thought they checked the Block number and go from there. Also to i was told that i had to give them the VIN that i got the car from? I think that is a little to risky on my part. I just talked to a stupif ref today about the Cats, he said that the cats need to be in the stock position like the 2000 camaro was. I was like HECK NO!!! Cause the passenger side wont fit at all... I called my friend up and he said not to worry about it, that they dont really check the location of the cats??? Now im really scared. All this hard work and i cant pass the ref. which means "Grab a GUN and SHOOT MYSELF"!!! LOL
As for the PCM, They grab the VIN# out of the ECM?? I thought they checked the Block number and go from there. Also to i was told that i had to give them the VIN that i got the car from? I think that is a little to risky on my part. I just talked to a stupif ref today about the Cats, he said that the cats need to be in the stock position like the 2000 camaro was. I was like HECK NO!!! Cause the passenger side wont fit at all... I called my friend up and he said not to worry about it, that they dont really check the location of the cats??? Now im really scared. All this hard work and i cant pass the ref. which means "Grab a GUN and SHOOT MYSELF"!!! LOL
05-18-2006, 01:24 AM
#15
I don't know about the VIN. The ref did not say anything to me regarding it. They could check the block, which is why I'm not putting my Z06 heads on until AFTER I get the car certified. The car I got it from is crushed, so the car VIN will not be eay for me to get. I cna show him pics of it being removed.... And, I had the computer reprogrammed by speartech. I can tell the refereee that to have the VATS removed, as well as a host of other things to make it more "stand alone". I'm hoping they check the block, if anyhting. I heard they do check the car thoroughly. My gas tank has bar codes, etc allover it so they can ref that if needed. (came from the donor car)
My pass cat does have ot be re-angled ot work. It can remain in the stock location, but not the stock angle.
I have ordered the 3rd gen compressor brackets fomr F-body motorsports. So, I hope my local AC shop cna cobble something to gether that will work. I am using the 4th gen radiator and AC radiator/ condensor.
My pass cat does have ot be re-angled ot work. It can remain in the stock location, but not the stock angle.
I have ordered the 3rd gen compressor brackets fomr F-body motorsports. So, I hope my local AC shop cna cobble something to gether that will work. I am using the 4th gen radiator and AC radiator/ condensor.
05-18-2006, 03:13 PM
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Looking good bro. I just finished painting my engine bay last night. Came out pretty good. Im still waiting on parts. Im going to finish up the bay this weekend and work under the car and get all clean and out in the gas tank and other stuff. Im just taking my time. Want to do it right the first time. As for the mods, Im going to wait too till i pass the ref. going to be one mean fighting machine when im done with it.
