12secSS

iTrader: (30)

I have heard these terms before, but what the heck is it? Anyone care to elaborate what this is? How do these function?

This is what I found, but it really doesn't say much. We plan on running the Super Pro category in this upcoming season of Summit ET racing and I would like to know if this would be advantegeous to us.

TOP BULB LOCK - Also known as NHRA Crosstalk - crossing over on your own top light.

CROSSOVER - Leave off the competitors top bulb

I understand the crossover, but do we need a delay box to utilize this? We are not looking to run a delay box, we will change our shift points for this if needed.

MADMAN

iTrader: (4)

Coach could probably help on this but I believe you will need a delay box with the crossover in it.

WickEdSix98

iTrader: (4)

You need a delay box to do it. How it works is you input your dial-in and your competitors dial in then the amount of delay you want. It will add the time difference between the competitors dial and your dial to the amount of delay you have in the box already. They make boxes where you can leave off the competitors top bulb then also off of your top bulb so you get two chances in-case you were slow the first time.

Taco

iTrader: (1)

Crossing over is done using a delay box. You put in your dial-in, your opponents dial in and your delay time. For example:

Your dial: 6.00
Their dial: 7.00
Your delay 1.000 (amount of time it takes you to react to the bulb coming on, minus rollout [amount of time it takes your car to "leave" the staging beams])

The delay box (all newer ones, and most all made in the last 10 years or so) will allow both drivers to react to the first light to come on (more consistent, and almost always quicker than waiting for your side of the tree to come on)and the "box" will automatically add and subtract the necessary numbers, releasing the trans brake, theoretically, at the exact same time the green light comes on.

Cross Talk eliminates the need to adjust "your delay" for crossing over. Often, at some tracks worse than others, there will be a difference in the angle the top bulbs are viewed from, causing the "lanes" to "differ". With cross talk active, both top bulbs come on at the same time, regardless of the dial-ins for each lane. The slower dialed car's tree will continue to fall as usual, the faster car's tree will stay with the top bulb lit, until the proper amount of time has passed for their handicap to have lapsed, then the tree will resume it's normal sequence. This way, if you "lose your lane" there's not supposed to be any difference in the "pick-up" of the light, by the driver.

Hope that helps, I'll will try to explain further if anybody needs it!
Taco

Coach 02 A3 Z/28

iTrader: (10)

Ditto!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Coach

Villain281H

iTrader: (5)

Taco, I think that's the best internet explanation of crosstalk I've seen yet!

George, you can always bypass the delay box crap and run footbrake I know delay box is usually more consistent with some practice than footbrake, but the "button" just doesn't appeal to me.

Derek

12secSS

iTrader: (30)

I guess I have to read it a couple more times to really understand it, or see it in action. Can you elaborate a bit more for me Taco (I hope I am not wasting your time?)? I don't think we are going to go this route, but it sure does help to understand what electronics are being used 'against' you. We are just going to run off the transbrake and no electronics. I like it to be a drivers' race, not an electronics' race. Thanks guys!

LS1SSII

iTrader: (2)

12SecSS-

I would not try to run Super Pro without a delay box unless you can cut consistent .010-.020 lights. The track where I race is very competitive in Super Pro and it usually takes atleast an .025 package or better to win a round. I am not saying it can't be done without a delay box, since there a bunch of great foot brake racers out there that can beat box racers all day long, but it will just be a whole lot tougher off the t-brake or foot when everyone else has a delay box.

Just My .02

Taco

iTrader: (1)

OK, I'll try to do it this way, I'll just walk you through a typical race in my dragster, and explain as I go.

In the staging lanes, I find my opponent and get his dial. I usually use his dial to decide mine, so once I have those, I get in the car and set my delay box as follows:

I put in his delay, say... 6.00. Then I put in my dial in (for sake of easier math) 5.00. Then I'll check my delay (again, for easier math) we'll say 1.000.

This is what I see on the screen of my delay box.

6.00 opp. dial
5.00 your dial
1.000 delay

Now, what I gather from this in my head is that his light will (obviously) be coming on first, so I need to concentrate on it when I stage. I go through my pre-race routine and burnout, back up, and check what I have in my box against the score boards to make sure they have my dial in right, and I have his dial in right (always go by what the scoreboard says is they have his wrong!) and i pull forward to stage. Now, since I'm crossing over, I just let go of the button when his bulb comes on, and wait. His side will continue to fall, and when his 3rd amber comes on (in this situation) my first amber will come on. This is when I go to the floor and hold my head forward to keep from banging it on the roll bars when my car launches.

If my box is setup correctly, theoretically, my car should leave in the same instant the green light on my side of the tree comes on. If it does, I have successfully "Crossed-Over".

Crosstalk is simply a much needed innovation since the increased use of LED lights in the christmas trees. What cross talk does is help with the VERY directional tendencies of the LED's. If you are having to react to your opponents side of the tree, he will have a much better angle to view the LED's from, allowing him a slim-but-effective advantage over your view from the side of the bulb. (At my home track the LED bulbs were pointed straight ahead, making this minimal, but still present, but we still didn't utilize the cross-talk feature). "Cross talk" is just both top amber bulbs coming on at the same time, regardless of dial in, giving both drivers the same view, and a more level playing field. The slower car's tree will continue to fall just like it would in any race, while the faster car's top amber stays lit until the "handicap" has lapsed and his tree "would be" coming on. At this time, his top amber bulb will go out, the 2nd will come on and the tree will continue to fall as it would normally.

It takes some getting used to, especially if you have a faster car, because your usual reaction to seeing your first amber is (or in my case anyway) let go of the button, go to the floor, take a deep breath, leave!

I hope that helps, but if you need further explanation again, I will certainly try!
Taco

p.s. It's never a waste of time to help a fellow enthusiast!

12secSS

iTrader: (30)

Taco, that greatly helps me out now. I feel as if I was there at a Lucas Oil event with in depth staging, with your explanation. I now understand the electronics of this kind of bracket racing, but of topic ... do any racers think this is not really a 'driver vs driver' race? It sounds more like an electronics race? Jen wants to run Super Gas eventually, so I need to learn this right now! But how does that (delay box racing) help your reactions when/if you go Pro (POWERade)? Aren't those (TF, FC, PRO, PB) not using electronics to react, but pure human reactions? No flame intended, just trying to understand an unknown.

LS1SSII

iTrader: (2)

The best thing about the delay box is you can react to the first bit of light you see. It is like running on a pro tree in a weird sort of way. The delay box allows you to adjust for your reaction, the cars reaction, track conditions or any other variables that may exist. The light you cut is only one part of the race. The delay box puts more of an emphisis on driving the finish line. That is where you will win most of your races in Super Pro or any index class. You still have to drive the car and you still have to react to a light so I would have to say it is still a drivers race.

If you were to run Super Gas the car would still have a delay box. I would say all Super Gas cars should be able to go red every time on a Pro Tree if not you will be in trouble. If you plan on using one in the future it allways helps to practice as much as you can now. Super Gas and Super Comp are some of the toughest classes to win in and takes years of practice to get good. I would also recommend starting to use a throttle stop as soon as possible so you can figure out how big of a pain they can be.

12secSS

iTrader: (30)

Thank you for the point of view LS1SSII. Now then, does the delay box (hence it's name?) also control the function where you see a pair of cars launch of the starting line, then bog ... about midway down they go full throttle? That is the only thing I don't like about 'delay boxes'. Why can't they just go full throttle and restrict this function? Or is that what a throttle stop is for? Keep it coming guys, I am enjoying this and learning a lot about 'pro' drag racing.

Side question, in a head up start (ie: S/S, SG & SC) with a pro tree start, how does this countdown of the lights come into play? Since it is instant 3 amber lights on?

Thanks guys!

LS1SSII

iTrader: (2)

The delay box will control the start delay and most of the time control the T-Stop, if it has that function built in. You set your delay for the start and then set the T-Stop for when you want it to come in and for how long you want it to stay on. This is where you see the "Bog" in Super Class Racing. The T-Stop allows the cars to slow down and hit the index. Next time you watch Super Class racing pay close attention to the MPH. In Super Gas you will see a car run 9.901 @ 145 MPH while his competitor will run 9.911 @ 165 MPH. It is all an effect of the T-Stop. The goal is to get the car to react fast and then slow it down as soon as possible. It is much more predictable to use the T-Stop at the start of the race...that is why you don't see it used at the top end as much.

S/ST runs on the .500 tree while S/G and S/C run on the .400 tree. All the yellows come down in both lanes and then you go. The only reason to use the delay box here would be to stop the car from red lighting (it would be nearly impossible to try and shade the tree on a pro tree, and even harder with the new LED's). There are several ways to change how the car reacts: tire pressure, chassis setup, longer or shorter buttons for the trans-brake... but it is a ton eaiser to use the delay box.

These are just heads-up index classes. You just want to be the first one to the stripe without breaking out.

Hope all that BS helps.

Taco

iTrader: (1)

As far as physical devices, a delay box and a throttle stop are different pieces of equipment. Usually, however, the delay box will have a "Throttle Stop Control" setting or something of the like, to control the operations of the throttle stop itself. If you already have a delay box and don't want to spend $200-$500 on a new one to control your "stop", many delay box manufacturers offer stand alone "TSC" units.

What the throttle stop physically does is close the butterflies of your carburetor, or some styles actually mount under the carb and have butterflies that close built in the unit itself. The newest, most advanced, and theoretically the "best" new style of stop has over-lapping "discs" that slide over one another, making the transition from "on the stop" (Discs, blades or butterflies CLOSED) to "off the stop" (OPEN, back to WOT) smoother.

I run, on my car, which I run occasionally in Super Comp, the pneumatic CO2 operated style that works the throttle linkage on the carburetor itself. It's mounted to the end of the throttle cable itself, so as it works, it's just like I am actually manipulating the pedal in the car. The drawback to this style is that if you don't have the "squirters" in your carb setup just right, it will sometimes "flood" the carb when it comes "off the stop" and cause a flutter, losing a couple of hundredths, and essentially putting you into "Oh crap I hope he breaks out" mode.

While relatively simple in physical activity, the throttle stop settings are an ever evolving artform if you will. There are sever schools of thinking pertaining to how to "stop" your car. Some people want to shut it down "hard" (this being, activating the stop within .15 of leaving the line, throttling it back to around 3000 rpm [a relatively low "stop" setting for RPM] and staying "on" the stop as long as possible, resulting is higher MPH, but often less conistent.) while some like to stop it "soft" (letting the car roll out a little longer, say .25, then throttling it back to 4000, staying on it for a while, then a smooth transition back to WOT. This results in you being out in front of the other car, making them play catch up and often make a mistake). And then there are those who go middle of the road.

As far as using a delay box in "super class racing" it is almost always a necessity, because unless you only run one track, there are going to be varying starting lines. I can go "bad" red in my dragster on pro tree almost anywhere, but just barely can in Montgomery AL for some reason. I need to be able to adjust my delay box to allow for that instead of trying to adjust my physical movements, for consistency's sake.

Remember, Consistency is the name of the game in brackets and super class racing, not only your car, but you and your routine and actions.

Anything else, please ask!
Taco

LS1SSII

iTrader: (2)

Right On!

1fastWS6

iTrader: (3)

Taco.....great explanations. I just bought a bracket car with a delay box and air throttle setup on it. Until reading your posts, I knew very little about how to set it up. That helps a bunch. Thanks!

One question, are there different types of air throttles? I mean, I don't think this car has it setup as a "throttle stop" but merely as a way to launch the car instead of using a 2 step.

brandonppr

iTrader: (9)

I think another reason for making the throttle stop come on at the beginning of the track rather than the end is for the advantage of being the car that is gaining on the other car.

This is kinda the same atvantage that any bracket class has when say a 8.000 car races a 7.500 car. the 7.500 car has the advantage at the end of the track because he can drive the end better when he has a full veiw of the car rather than looking behind him/her.

even though in super gas the cars are running the same index the car with more power will most likely be the one gaining because he can slow down at the start of the race more and let the other car go by then catch up.

hope this helps

Villain281H

iTrader: (5)

yep, keep in mind some people run top end stops, but they are far fewer than throttle stops that turn on early. Some of the quicker super gas cars now-a-days are capable of running mid to low 8s at 165-170 mph without the stop, which means try judging 30+ mph at the end, I've tried and it's not easy! When you're playing catch-up, you can take the stripe or dump and let the opponent have it much easier than if in front, IMHO.

Derek

LS1SSII

iTrader: (2)

I have to disagree with the chaser having the advantage. I run a mid 10.50 second Super Pro car and rarley do I chase. I feel I now have the advantage on most faster cars since I have learned how to drive the finish line. A dragster running 40 mph faster then me has just as hard of a time judging me as I do him. Remember, he can not see my front tires until he is right up on my door. I can see his front tires (or nose...whatever I think is going to take the stripe) all the way down the track.

The trick with the top end stop is to give the illusion that you are dumping. This may trick your opponent into dumping as well. If he is watching the attitude of your car he might think he is is going to take to much at the finish line and breakout. If it works it works. But predicting the ET on a top-end stop is hard because of all the variables you see as you go down the tack. If you notice your ET's...The back half of the track is much more consistent than the first half.

Driving the finish line is an art form. If you are good it does not matter if you are faster or slower. You just get good with your combination and run with it. It is whatever you fell good with.

I run the throttle stop as starting line controller. I do not like using the two-step for the fact you are loading the engine with extra fuel. My T-stop is wired to the trans-brake and is activated off of the trans-brake button.