Vortec5300

I know ALL the M6s make good dyno numbers with bolt ons and cams, but it seems that most of them don't run well at the strip. Mine included. After difficulty getting my car to run the numbers at the strip, I did a search here and it seems LOTS of M6, full weight cars are NOT running anywhere where they should be. Its becoming apparent to me that we all got bit by the bigger is better thing on the cam. I guess with aftermarket cams, driving them outta the hole and letting the motor do the work is just a memory? Are 5k clutch dumps the only way to get the full weight cars to 330' with cam only? WTF?

WHo is running decent times at the strip with full weight, street cars? not stripped, drag suspended, 6k rpm launches with cam onlys? I was under the impression low 12s was the norm with 380+hp full weight but apparently its not that easy with M6s?

I guess I am looking for a new cam now, something that actually makes some power below 4500, thinking TR 224/228, this a good one for the strip that actually makes some torque?

lilbuddy1587

iTrader: (1)

Well first of all, dont expect much unless you have gears with a huge cam. Secondly, yes you need to get the rpms up, or the car is gonna bog. Thats a given dude, or you're gonna be OUT of your powerband.

Vortec5300

I have ran mine twice at the track, first trip was with 3.42s and the second time was 4.10s. Both times was on Nitto DRs, I tried all various launch techniques and averaged 2.0s 60's. Its my 330's that suck. Normal 330's should be around 5.0-5.10s for a bolt on/cam setup but, I am only getting 5.50-5.60s. Thats killing my 1/8 et and mph and ultimately killing my whole run. If my car was auto with a 4k stall I think it would run awesome but...anytime my rpms are under 4500, its just not pulling hard. My car is tuned pretty well and is low mileage, unabused but it just doesn't run hard. My car stock with a lid/borla went 12.90s@108 no problem, now with more power and better tires, in only runs 2 tenths and 4-5mph faster. I miss the torquey feeling of the stock cam. I did LS6 intake, LTs, ORY, cam and tune at the same time and eventhough it picked up 80 hp, it doesn't show the power at the strip. I don't want to have to dump it at 5k rpms to make it run when I could put a stock cam back in it and probably match my cam only numbers. I almost wish I had an auto.

Beast96Z

iTrader: (21)

The only way to make a stick hang with an auto is to have a dialed in suspension and a hell of a driver. The sticks lay down the dyno numbers because of less drivetrain mass. It's simply easier to turn the M6 than it is a healthy automatic. The auto's with stalls have a huge advantage at the track over a M6. Auto's pre-load the suspension so there is little to no "shock" when the green light drops. With an M6, your car goes from no load to full load with the drop of the clutch. This either equals spin, bog, broke, or gone. Sticks take a bit of finesse and talent to hang with the auto's, but it can be done. Not to mention sticks are flat out more fun on the street.

Vortec5300

Ya M6s are much more fun to drive/cruise etc, thats why I bought one. My car is just a weekend cruiser/show car that rarely goes to the track BUT I want it to run what it should be running. Everyone claims to be going low 12s with bolt ons, cam and M6 but I can't seem to do it. I don't mind spending the money on a 12bolt so I can dump it but it just seems to me that the car should be able to leave at a reasonable rpm and still run a decent et and mph, without having to sidestep it at 5k. Maybe I am wrong but... With 80 more hp then stock, this thing should be running low 12s @115 no problem and its not even close. I have dynoed the car 3 times and made changes and the HP is there and even the torque SHOWS to be there on the dyno but..in the real world, it just doesn't happen and I am not sure what to do to fix it. Options:

1) Leave it as is, buy a 12B, dump the hell outta it and hope it runs the number
2) Switch to a smaller cam, re-tune and try to get some torque back and hope it runs.
3) Switch to a smaller cam, put some heads on it to MAKE SURE it will run the number but spend an extra $2k to get it to do something it should be doing now.

I just want it to run 12.0-12.20s, full weight, street suspension, without having to totally dump/abuse the clutch/tranny to get it to run it.

What you guys think?

BTW My cam is the MS3

Ric

I'm no expert at all when it comes to drag racing... but after some thought on the matter, I'd bet you're shifting into 3rd right around the 330' area of the track, aren't ya? That 1-2 shift is stupid easy to do, but most of us tend to be a bit slower on the 2-3 shift because it's an up-and-over shift, instead of straight back like 1-2 and 3-4. And with good reason, because if you blow the shift and go back into 1st, there goes a lot of your drivetrain.

As far as no power under 4500 rpms, that's an LS1 for ya. Don't get me wrong, they have plenty to cruise on below that, but the torque peak is at a rather lofty 4400 rpm stock, and any beefier cam will only raise that peak(although the right one will give more torque at the stock cam's peak area than the stock cam offered) higher still. Good thing about the setup is, with the exception of 6th gear, the gear ratios are such that when shifting at redline into the next gear, the rpms drop back into the peak area of the torque range, getting you back into the hp peak area quicker.

Just work on that 2-3 shift and I'll bet your times will improve... so long as you don't break that 10-bolt in the process.

BerryWS6

iTrader: (9)

Old track times:
with 375rwhp, Moser 12 bolt with 4.30's Helps alot
1.7 60' 12.35 1/4ET
havent got any new ones yet with 37 more HP and more suspension

Vortec5300

RIC I am speed shifting it. It made no difference in the 330' switching from 3.42s to 4.10s and I thought that was weird because it FELT better on the street. I know LS1s are very UN-torquey and my car doesn't actually "BOG" as I mean fall on its face or anything, it just pulls through the lower rpms slowly. What I am worried about is if I switch to say a TR224 and it doesn't fix the problem, then what? I can afford to keep dumping money into this thing. I am hoping someone will chime in here that has seen this problem. There are other threads just like this on in the Drag racing tech and drag racing results sections, also in the 11 sec club.. I just don't see any quick running cam only cars that have relatively large cams, that are not lightened, drag suspended, skinnies and dumping at 5k. Maybe I now know the reason I don't see them.

Vortec5300

Berry, on the old track times, what are the details? are you dumping it at high RPMs? what was the mph? 330'?

I have two buddies, one with a C5 and one a TA, both have ported 5.3 heads and TR224s, both run 11.80s on nittos, without DUMPING the clutch, just decent 1.85 60's. The C5 has a reverse split 227/224 and his car was going 12.0-12.10s before he put heads on it. He said it did it easily, why won't ours do it? I really want to know why my car won't run the numbers easy. I had a 99 formula, stock with a 100hp dry kit, it would EASILY run 12.10s@117 with 1.95 60's, I figure it had 390-400rwhp on spray so there is no reason why my new TA should not run similar numbers, EXCEPT for the lack of torque that the nitrous was providing instantly for the Formula.

NemeSS

iTrader: (127)

what suspension parts do you have?what rpm do you launch?what rpm do you shift?are you using the stock clutch?my previous f was a 2000 ws6 full weight m6,stock rear with a alloy cover from jegs bmr tork arm,subframe connectors,lower control arms,1' lowerin springs and 17 in. nittos made a world of diff. when i installed it.launchin and shiftin my cam was 215in. 225ex.575lift on a 116 lsa, great bottom end fun cam,i had cleaned up heads,basically rocker boss removed,valve job heads,cartridge rolled,and chamber polish.918 springs.my quikest time was 11.5 with spray, i sprayed at 5800-6000 rpm of launch,1st gear,2ndgear6200,3rdgear6500,4thgear6500the shot wasonly 50 on pump gas,75 on 1oo octane.never broke anything,till the car got totaled,t-boned by some jak *** 3 blocks from my house,busted mouth and nose only from air bag car gone r.i.p.

Ric

Hmmmm...

Never caught your current cam profile.

It could also lie in your suspension... are you hookin up good off the line??? What's your shift rpm?

dame

iTrader: (3)

thats because ALOT of 6 speed LS1's don't have a built rearend, and a harlan 2 step!

JMBLOWNWS6

iTrader: (17)

Cam only on street tires with my old setup TR224 was 12.0@117 on street tires.

PonyKiln

Its all in the 60 ft dude. Put a rear end in it and drop the clutch at 5500 or higher with some sticky tires and a good clutch. I granny shift and my best time is in the sig. I just have a small 231/237 cam(by todays standards). I plan on being quicker when I get my suspension stuff figured out. Also what RPM are you shifting at? I shift at like 6500 so maybe you need to look at that too.

PREDATOR-Z

Suspension.
that's what it is all about (assuming you shift quick and clean).
As mentionned above dumping clutch at 5K rpm is no easy feat on rear setup.
Gotta keep it from flexing, hoping, spinning.
That requires stonger bushings, p-rod, sway, relo brackets, shocks, Trq arm (not on tranny) etc....
Basically a rear that absorbs the shock of launch and allows easy weight transfer to put that power to the ground (nice and sticky).

It is a known fact though that in dragging, auto is master. M5/6 is more autox and such where down shifting at will is necessary.

LSONE

iTrader: (1)

While I agree with everything said here for the most part, Large cams sacrifice low end power for top end power. Your 2 friends with the 224 cams are running small cams with high compression nice flowing heads. While you may be making the same peak power, the have a lot more power down low than you do. As far as auto vs M6, with an auto you can keep a larger cam car in its power band all the time, in a M6 it is a lot harder to keep your larger cam cars from falling out of the power band. Auto car also have a huge launching advantage, they probably wont break the rear end if they get off a good launch, whereas a M6 will. Upgrade your drive train and get a 2-step, that should help a lot. Or just get a turbo like I did

eamador11

eh, who cares about the strip..as long as you kick *** on the street and impress the chicks!

Vortec5300

My suspension is more of a cornering setup then a drag setup. I want a street car, not a drag car. My car has Hotchkis 1.5" drop springs, sub frame connectors, Random adj. torque arm, MAC LCRs. 315 Nitto DRs, McCleod clutch. THe car hooks fine at low rpm launches, say 3k dumps. My point is I KNOW I could set the rear end up, ,suspension up and run slicks and dump it at 5k rpms to get it to run, I think though that the car should be able to run low 12s WITHOUT making it into a freakin drag car. I want a full weight car that still handles like a sports car that you can drive to the track, make some passes and drive home.. Its looking like a TR224 will allow enough torque to pull the car without dumping it at the redline.

I shift at 6400-6500 indicated which is around 6600-6700 true rpm. I have tried short shifting and it makes no difference either way. THe car has no real weight transfer but I think it will still 60' high 1.8s without much problem. Its the 330' that is the problem. After the clutch is out and the motor is doing the work, thats where its slow.

Vortec5300

Was that driving it outta the hole or dumping it? what was the 60' and 330'? 1/8? THats what I am shooting for. Just a consistant, relatively easy low 12 thats now going to require a special launch to get the job done.

BTW I KNOW autos are the way to go and they are much quicker, I have had them, my point here is getting a 6spd car to run decent without having to set the car up as a light weight drag car and dumping it off the limiter.

The Alchemist

iTrader: (19)

It's all about torque. To get a big, heavy car moving from a standstill takes a lot of torque. Gears help make up for that, as well as a torque converter for the A4's. In addition, you need to get the torque to the pavement, which is where the suspension comes into play. Fact is, a big cam gets your additional horsepower by rasing the torque curve up the rpm band while adding more power. That's why you don't get a 1:1 increase, usually it's a 2:1 increase, i.e. 20hp : 10ft/lb gains.

The reason that 80hp shot of nitrous helps so much is that you are probably getting a true 100ft/lb of torque and at a lower rpm.

Honestly, if you really want to run good numbers with an M6, you have to make some concessions, namely, weight, gears, suspension.