TR 230/224 = 416tq / 411 hp
10-16-2009, 01:40 PM
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TR 230/224 = 416tq / 411 hp Mods are: TR 230/224 .575/.563 111LSA cam, LS6 intake, P&P throttle body, Hooker 1.75" headers (no exhaust), no A/C, stock pullies, LS3 ported oil pump, Comp 925 valvesprings, Manley timing chain, LS7 lifters, ARP rod bolts, Racetronix fuel pump, 7.25" triple disc clutch w/ button flywheel (30lbs lighter than stock).
I wanted a cam that gave me fairly broad power, since I'm doing road racing. My goal was max power from 3500-7000rpm. Also, I wanted smooth power, so that the throttle would react similarly at all RPMs.
No AFR data, as my headers dumped too soon and we were sucking in atmoshperic air between exhaust pulses. However, my injectors were at 101% duty cycle from 5500rpm through redline. This indicates a lean condition up high, and probably reduced HP.
Anyway, this cam accomplished my goal of getting a nice, broad powerband. With a heavier clutch/fly, I'd clasify this cam as being on the upper end of "streetable". But, it's great for road racing. It's going to allow me to choose which gears I want to use when coming out of turns, instead of being forced to be "up in RPMs". Also, because I am not forced to wind the car up so much, it should save a lot of wear-n-tear. After all in just a single race, I'm making 16 1/3 mile passes, 32 1/8 mile pulls, and roughly a hundred little "squirts" of throttle.
Thanks to Chris Carver Motorsports for heolp with the clutch install, and all the little things they've done to the car over the years (little stuff, like the roll cage and fire supression system!). Their machining work on the clutch was PERFECT!
Special thanks to Shane, Angie, Gene, Bleachers and everyone else at Thunder Racing who installed much of this stuff. They are the textbook definition of "professional". I'm very picky about who I trust my life to (it's a racecar, after all) - I'd trust these guys any day of the week and twice on raceday!
Thanks to Geoff Skinner for tuning the car. I told him I wanted torque, and that's exactly what he gave me!
I wanted a cam that gave me fairly broad power, since I'm doing road racing. My goal was max power from 3500-7000rpm. Also, I wanted smooth power, so that the throttle would react similarly at all RPMs.
No AFR data, as my headers dumped too soon and we were sucking in atmoshperic air between exhaust pulses. However, my injectors were at 101% duty cycle from 5500rpm through redline. This indicates a lean condition up high, and probably reduced HP.
Anyway, this cam accomplished my goal of getting a nice, broad powerband. With a heavier clutch/fly, I'd clasify this cam as being on the upper end of "streetable". But, it's great for road racing. It's going to allow me to choose which gears I want to use when coming out of turns, instead of being forced to be "up in RPMs". Also, because I am not forced to wind the car up so much, it should save a lot of wear-n-tear. After all in just a single race, I'm making 16 1/3 mile passes, 32 1/8 mile pulls, and roughly a hundred little "squirts" of throttle.
Thanks to Chris Carver Motorsports for heolp with the clutch install, and all the little things they've done to the car over the years (little stuff, like the roll cage and fire supression system!). Their machining work on the clutch was PERFECT!
Special thanks to Shane, Angie, Gene, Bleachers and everyone else at Thunder Racing who installed much of this stuff. They are the textbook definition of "professional". I'm very picky about who I trust my life to (it's a racecar, after all) - I'd trust these guys any day of the week and twice on raceday!
Thanks to Geoff Skinner for tuning the car. I told him I wanted torque, and that's exactly what he gave me!
Last edited by 00 Trans Ram; 10-20-2009 at 05:07 PM.
10-16-2009, 02:06 PM
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Add in the extreme-lightweight fly/clutch, and it sounds evil. In fact, we had to up the idle to 1000, just so it'd stay lit.
Oh, and this is on a VERY conservative tune. If this car was used on the street/strip, I've have been more aggressive. But, I need the motor to last for a few years of hard racing. You could probably get 420/420 if you played your cards right.
Oh, and this is on a VERY conservative tune. If this car was used on the street/strip, I've have been more aggressive. But, I need the motor to last for a few years of hard racing. You could probably get 420/420 if you played your cards right.
10-16-2009, 02:20 PM
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your doing something wrong if you need it to idle at 1,000 rpm...that is no where near the "upper limits of streetable" IMO.
but nice numbers and curve.
Chad
but nice numbers and curve.
Chad
10-16-2009, 03:03 PM
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We may have been able to set it that low and get it right, but stalling is a big no-no for me. I've got a lightweight battery that has about a dozen starts in it during a race weekend. After that, it needs a battery charger. I can't afford to have the car stalling on me in pits. So, we set the idle relatively high to counteract that.
10-16-2009, 04:00 PM
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Matthew,
Congrats on those numbers, that torque curve is EXACTLY what I know you and I were both hoping for! That cam is so well suited to the stock style intake and operating range of the LS1. The thing should be a beast to drive on the road course, I hope you are ready to re-learn driving at No Problem...
BTW, It was a pleasure to work on your car. It's always nice to work on a project where the goals are very well defined and the customer wants everything done the RIGHT way...
Chris has been an awesome resource for us as well, he's machined some brackets and turned some parts down for us on a couple of custom Challenger supercharger installs. Always done right and quickly too.
Thanks,
Shane
Congrats on those numbers, that torque curve is EXACTLY what I know you and I were both hoping for! That cam is so well suited to the stock style intake and operating range of the LS1. The thing should be a beast to drive on the road course, I hope you are ready to re-learn driving at No Problem...
BTW, It was a pleasure to work on your car. It's always nice to work on a project where the goals are very well defined and the customer wants everything done the RIGHT way...
Chris has been an awesome resource for us as well, he's machined some brackets and turned some parts down for us on a couple of custom Challenger supercharger installs. Always done right and quickly too.
Thanks,
Shane
10-16-2009, 04:21 PM
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Sorry - I meant that the "cam" itself is streetable. I have other things on the car that make the combo NOT streetable. My clutch/flywheel only weighs 19lbs. I have no rear O2 sensors or MAF meter (run on speed density tune). So, it simply won't idle properly - not enough mass to keep rpms level that low.
We may have been able to set it that low and get it right, but stalling is a big no-no for me. I've got a lightweight battery that has about a dozen starts in it during a race weekend. After that, it needs a battery charger. I can't afford to have the car stalling on me in pits. So, we set the idle relatively high to counteract that.
We may have been able to set it that low and get it right, but stalling is a big no-no for me. I've got a lightweight battery that has about a dozen starts in it during a race weekend. After that, it needs a battery charger. I can't afford to have the car stalling on me in pits. So, we set the idle relatively high to counteract that.
that thing must rev real damn fast w/ that light of a flywheel.
what clutch are you running? have any videos?
Chad
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10-17-2009, 10:39 AM
#8
congrats!
my cam is extremely similar just cut on a weaker comp lobe (had an out of stock issue at TR when I tried to order and the same day a friend told me he could order any cam I wanted from comp for $320 shipped) so I made a mistake and did that...really wish I would have waited
its extremely drivable, its just as streetable as my old 350 sbc with a tiny 268 cam and my car will idle as low as 675 rpm but due to stock converter has issues going into a drive gear that low so I set it up to 750
pulls hard starting right above 3k rpm and comes on even harder right at 4k (didn't do that until I put the FAST intake on)
my cam is extremely similar just cut on a weaker comp lobe (had an out of stock issue at TR when I tried to order and the same day a friend told me he could order any cam I wanted from comp for $320 shipped) so I made a mistake and did that...really wish I would have waited
its extremely drivable, its just as streetable as my old 350 sbc with a tiny 268 cam and my car will idle as low as 675 rpm but due to stock converter has issues going into a drive gear that low so I set it up to 750
pulls hard starting right above 3k rpm and comes on even harder right at 4k (didn't do that until I put the FAST intake on)
10-19-2009, 12:11 PM
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Shane - so glad that Chris is able to help! One of the things I love about local road racing is that everyone is willing to bend over backwards for each other.
The clutch is a kinda custom thing. It's a 7.25" QuarterMaster (QM) triple disc clutch, with button-stly flywheel. The whole thing is mounted on a stock flexplate (so I can use the stock starter). For a throwout bearing/slave cylinder, I used the QM 4.5/5.5 floating-type. We had to machine a sleeve for it to sit on, but other than that it worked perfectly.
It revs VERY quickly. In fact, the tuner said that it had one of the fastest "reactions to throttle inputs" that he has ever seen. While doing dyno pulls, we were able to see when he'd hit the gas, and how long it would take for the power to reach the rear wheels. Even though we're talking all-metal components, there's usually a fraction-of-a-second lag. The computer made readings ever 1/10,000th of a second. At one reading, we'd see the throttle input. On the next, we saw power at the wheels. So, whatever it is, it's less than .0001 second!!
I don't know exactly how much hp/tq the fly/clutch is responsible for. I've got an ME working on it, actually. Our guess is something near 10-15ft/lb. After all, it's still 7.25" diameter. Stock is something like 12", I think. There are 4.5" clutches that I could have used. But, that would have been crazy, I think.
The clutch is a kinda custom thing. It's a 7.25" QuarterMaster (QM) triple disc clutch, with button-stly flywheel. The whole thing is mounted on a stock flexplate (so I can use the stock starter). For a throwout bearing/slave cylinder, I used the QM 4.5/5.5 floating-type. We had to machine a sleeve for it to sit on, but other than that it worked perfectly.
It revs VERY quickly. In fact, the tuner said that it had one of the fastest "reactions to throttle inputs" that he has ever seen. While doing dyno pulls, we were able to see when he'd hit the gas, and how long it would take for the power to reach the rear wheels. Even though we're talking all-metal components, there's usually a fraction-of-a-second lag. The computer made readings ever 1/10,000th of a second. At one reading, we'd see the throttle input. On the next, we saw power at the wheels. So, whatever it is, it's less than .0001 second!!
I don't know exactly how much hp/tq the fly/clutch is responsible for. I've got an ME working on it, actually. Our guess is something near 10-15ft/lb. After all, it's still 7.25" diameter. Stock is something like 12", I think. There are 4.5" clutches that I could have used. But, that would have been crazy, I think.
10-19-2009, 05:28 PM
#15
Very nice numbers, especially the high(er) torque. I'm willing to bet that is because of the clutch setup. I'd look into that but I'm sure it would seriously suck for a drag setup, lol. TR230, I'm stuck on Band-Aids!
Larry
Larry
10-20-2009, 09:26 AM
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Now - please understand that I'm saying this having NEVER made a drag strip pass.
I'm not so sure that it would be horrible for a drag strip. It'd certainly be harder to find the "sweet spot" for launching. You'd have to depend upon the torque of the engine to keep revs up, instead of rotating mass. This means that you'd have to be VERY sensitive with your right foot and hold it at the right RPM for launch, and be ready to either let up if the tires spin or mash it down if they don't.
But, once you're rolling just the slightest bit, you'd be 100x better off with this clutch than a heavy one. Not just for the tq/hp gains, either.
My regular shifts took about 1/4 second. I could do it a little bit quicker, but it was dicey and I'd sometimes miss shifts (not the wrong gear, but let the clutch out too early or it wouldn't go into gear because the synchros couldn't keep up). Now, I can make 1/10 second shifts at will. In fact, if I take any longer, the revs drop too low.
So, for drag strips, where I'm assuming that you end up in 4th gear, you'd be adding another .6 seconds of acceleration (.15 seconds x 4 shifts). That's gotta be helpful!
Of course, my stock 10-bolt would never last, but that's another story.
I'm not so sure that it would be horrible for a drag strip. It'd certainly be harder to find the "sweet spot" for launching. You'd have to depend upon the torque of the engine to keep revs up, instead of rotating mass. This means that you'd have to be VERY sensitive with your right foot and hold it at the right RPM for launch, and be ready to either let up if the tires spin or mash it down if they don't.
But, once you're rolling just the slightest bit, you'd be 100x better off with this clutch than a heavy one. Not just for the tq/hp gains, either.
My regular shifts took about 1/4 second. I could do it a little bit quicker, but it was dicey and I'd sometimes miss shifts (not the wrong gear, but let the clutch out too early or it wouldn't go into gear because the synchros couldn't keep up). Now, I can make 1/10 second shifts at will. In fact, if I take any longer, the revs drop too low.
So, for drag strips, where I'm assuming that you end up in 4th gear, you'd be adding another .6 seconds of acceleration (.15 seconds x 4 shifts). That's gotta be helpful!
Of course, my stock 10-bolt would never last, but that's another story.
10-20-2009, 03:25 PM
#18
That's similar to how I have launched my car in the past due to an aluminum DS. I just walked it out of the hole at about 3k letting the clutch out quickly while adding throttle. Works OK, got into the high 1.5 60's on a fairly stiff suspension.
I don't think the light weight clutch would like the typical 6500 rpm sidestep, which is where you need to be to get good ETs. As a reference my best mph is 128.25 but I haven't ET'd better than 10.8. I'm hoping that changing my launching style will drop me into the mid to low tens.
I would love to try it out but I can't afford to spend time and money on a clutch setup that *might* work. The shifting time is a great benefit but I already have a Pro Shifted trans so it's a moot point for me. If I wasn't so interested in getting some ETs I would pursue the idea further. The flywheel setup freaks me out a bit too, lol.
Larry
I don't think the light weight clutch would like the typical 6500 rpm sidestep, which is where you need to be to get good ETs. As a reference my best mph is 128.25 but I haven't ET'd better than 10.8. I'm hoping that changing my launching style will drop me into the mid to low tens.
I would love to try it out but I can't afford to spend time and money on a clutch setup that *might* work. The shifting time is a great benefit but I already have a Pro Shifted trans so it's a moot point for me. If I wasn't so interested in getting some ETs I would pursue the idea further. The flywheel setup freaks me out a bit too, lol.
Larry
Now - please understand that I'm saying this having NEVER made a drag strip pass.
I'm not so sure that it would be horrible for a drag strip. It'd certainly be harder to find the "sweet spot" for launching. You'd have to depend upon the torque of the engine to keep revs up, instead of rotating mass. This means that you'd have to be VERY sensitive with your right foot and hold it at the right RPM for launch, and be ready to either let up if the tires spin or mash it down if they don't.
But, once you're rolling just the slightest bit, you'd be 100x better off with this clutch than a heavy one. Not just for the tq/hp gains, either.
My regular shifts took about 1/4 second. I could do it a little bit quicker, but it was dicey and I'd sometimes miss shifts (not the wrong gear, but let the clutch out too early or it wouldn't go into gear because the synchros couldn't keep up). Now, I can make 1/10 second shifts at will. In fact, if I take any longer, the revs drop too low.
So, for drag strips, where I'm assuming that you end up in 4th gear, you'd be adding another .6 seconds of acceleration (.15 seconds x 4 shifts). That's gotta be helpful!
Of course, my stock 10-bolt would never last, but that's another story.
I'm not so sure that it would be horrible for a drag strip. It'd certainly be harder to find the "sweet spot" for launching. You'd have to depend upon the torque of the engine to keep revs up, instead of rotating mass. This means that you'd have to be VERY sensitive with your right foot and hold it at the right RPM for launch, and be ready to either let up if the tires spin or mash it down if they don't.
But, once you're rolling just the slightest bit, you'd be 100x better off with this clutch than a heavy one. Not just for the tq/hp gains, either.
My regular shifts took about 1/4 second. I could do it a little bit quicker, but it was dicey and I'd sometimes miss shifts (not the wrong gear, but let the clutch out too early or it wouldn't go into gear because the synchros couldn't keep up). Now, I can make 1/10 second shifts at will. In fact, if I take any longer, the revs drop too low.
So, for drag strips, where I'm assuming that you end up in 4th gear, you'd be adding another .6 seconds of acceleration (.15 seconds x 4 shifts). That's gotta be helpful!
Of course, my stock 10-bolt would never last, but that's another story.
10-20-2009, 05:06 PM
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It definitely was weird for me to put together. I know that something like this has been done on racecars for years. But, I think this is the only/first time that anyone has done it on an LS1. People have used the clutch/fly, but I couldn't find anyone that used the floating slave, along with a McLeod master. They may be out there, but I didn't see anything online.
It was basically a "build as you go" project. I did it to solve some shifting problems I was having. If I didn't have those problems, I wouldn't have even tried this!
It was basically a "build as you go" project. I did it to solve some shifting problems I was having. If I didn't have those problems, I wouldn't have even tried this!
