417 CID with new "V2" AFR 230 heads (now UPDATED w/chassis dyno #'s)
08-31-2010, 06:40 PM
#22
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I just wanted to drop in here to thank Tony for an experience that I will always remember - and I haven't even experienced the engine in the car yet!
My first dealings with Tony were back in early 2006, when I had him port a FAST 90 to go along with the AFR 205's and the 224/228 cam that was installed in my 346. This was the same set-up that Tony first had in his vette. I enjoyed the stock like driveability and broad power curve that this set-up always delivered, but eventually as everyone does, you start to get used to the power.
One note that I think is important to mention, is that I was one of the few people who unfortunately ended up with a bad valve tip in 2007 due to the batch of bad valves AFR had received from a vendor. The way that AFR as a company stepped up, handled the entire situation and made sure I was "looked after" is part of the reason why I am a repeat AFR customer now. I figured if this is how the company stands behind their product, then they are a company that I want to continue to do business with.
Fast forward to June 2008 when I contacted Tony again with the thought that if I could replicate the characteristics of the 346 set-up with just more power everywhere and maybe throw in a little bit more of an aggressive flair to the set-up then I would be one happy camper... We kicked the idea around of going with more cubes and having Tony work my 205's on top of an LS3 stroker 416/418 for a couple of months. Then as we all know, the economic meltdown hit and I figured that now was not the time to be making a purchase of this nature at a time of such uncertainty. I told Tony that I was going to put the project on the back burner due to what was happening and he was completely professional about it and told me that he could appreciate my decision - which I respected again how he handled this.
On to August 2009 and with things starting to look like the world really may not be ending I contacted Tony again regarding a build. I certainly (as Tony can attest to) was not one to jump into something like this without thinking about it and talking it through over and over again!!
What a patient guy Tony is. By the end of 2009 we had a plan (hell even a camshaft picked out). I knew Tony was going to dyno Steve Smith's 407 shortly, so wanting to be sure of what I was getting into, I waited until Steve's 407 was dyno'd with the outstanding results that it provided. Two days later I wired Tony the deposit for the build....
I went into this build knowing that this will very likely be the only chance that I get to do something like this, so I wanted it to be something that I would always remember. I knew there were several positives in my favor, one was that Tony had real skin in the game so to speak. He was putting his reputation on the line with the build and the fact that the guy who designed the heads was the one "romancing" them and building the entire engine to showcase them was nothing but a winner in my books. In my opinion what more could I ask for?
What Tony basically did throughout the build (even though I was 2000 miles away), is he took me along for the ride. We kept in close contact and when certain decisions had to be made we discussed it and then moved forward. Tony provided regular updates of the progress he was making along with an explanation of the complete and total attention to detail that he was putting into the build along with pictures, which I always looked forward to receiving. With the engine coming together in its final stages our dyno date was booked and we were ready to go.
The day at Westech was simply all I hoped it would be and more. Steve Brule and Ernie were both great guys and made me feel right at home with them in the Polygraph Room. It sure was neat being in the dyno cell that you regularly see in the magazines. The results have spoken for themselves and were more than I had hoped Tony could possibly pull off. Watching the rpm sweep with the numbers climbing higher and higher on the screen and the engine screaming at you is something almost surreal and really has to be experienced in person.
The entire build process with Tony was a life experience that I really will always treasure. We spent the rest of the weekend hanging with Tony, shared some great meals and had a pile of laughs (oh yah). I am happy to call Tony a friend and he is also the guy who built a kick *** engine that I feel very lucky to be able to call mine.
Thanks for all the positive comments that have been posted about the build and hopefully this has provided some food for thought for any of you guys who are contemplating a build down the road. I know that this isn't the type of "deal" that everyone is looking for, but if it does look like it might be a fit, I suggest you get in touch with Tony and tell him what you are looking for, because he sure can deliver.
Jeremy.
My first dealings with Tony were back in early 2006, when I had him port a FAST 90 to go along with the AFR 205's and the 224/228 cam that was installed in my 346. This was the same set-up that Tony first had in his vette. I enjoyed the stock like driveability and broad power curve that this set-up always delivered, but eventually as everyone does, you start to get used to the power.
One note that I think is important to mention, is that I was one of the few people who unfortunately ended up with a bad valve tip in 2007 due to the batch of bad valves AFR had received from a vendor. The way that AFR as a company stepped up, handled the entire situation and made sure I was "looked after" is part of the reason why I am a repeat AFR customer now. I figured if this is how the company stands behind their product, then they are a company that I want to continue to do business with.
Fast forward to June 2008 when I contacted Tony again with the thought that if I could replicate the characteristics of the 346 set-up with just more power everywhere and maybe throw in a little bit more of an aggressive flair to the set-up then I would be one happy camper... We kicked the idea around of going with more cubes and having Tony work my 205's on top of an LS3 stroker 416/418 for a couple of months. Then as we all know, the economic meltdown hit and I figured that now was not the time to be making a purchase of this nature at a time of such uncertainty. I told Tony that I was going to put the project on the back burner due to what was happening and he was completely professional about it and told me that he could appreciate my decision - which I respected again how he handled this.
On to August 2009 and with things starting to look like the world really may not be ending I contacted Tony again regarding a build. I certainly (as Tony can attest to) was not one to jump into something like this without thinking about it and talking it through over and over again!!
What a patient guy Tony is. By the end of 2009 we had a plan (hell even a camshaft picked out). I knew Tony was going to dyno Steve Smith's 407 shortly, so wanting to be sure of what I was getting into, I waited until Steve's 407 was dyno'd with the outstanding results that it provided. Two days later I wired Tony the deposit for the build....I went into this build knowing that this will very likely be the only chance that I get to do something like this, so I wanted it to be something that I would always remember. I knew there were several positives in my favor, one was that Tony had real skin in the game so to speak. He was putting his reputation on the line with the build and the fact that the guy who designed the heads was the one "romancing" them and building the entire engine to showcase them was nothing but a winner in my books. In my opinion what more could I ask for?
What Tony basically did throughout the build (even though I was 2000 miles away), is he took me along for the ride. We kept in close contact and when certain decisions had to be made we discussed it and then moved forward. Tony provided regular updates of the progress he was making along with an explanation of the complete and total attention to detail that he was putting into the build along with pictures, which I always looked forward to receiving. With the engine coming together in its final stages our dyno date was booked and we were ready to go.
The day at Westech was simply all I hoped it would be and more. Steve Brule and Ernie were both great guys and made me feel right at home with them in the Polygraph Room. It sure was neat being in the dyno cell that you regularly see in the magazines. The results have spoken for themselves and were more than I had hoped Tony could possibly pull off. Watching the rpm sweep with the numbers climbing higher and higher on the screen and the engine screaming at you is something almost surreal and really has to be experienced in person.
The entire build process with Tony was a life experience that I really will always treasure. We spent the rest of the weekend hanging with Tony, shared some great meals and had a pile of laughs (oh yah). I am happy to call Tony a friend and he is also the guy who built a kick *** engine that I feel very lucky to be able to call mine.
Thanks for all the positive comments that have been posted about the build and hopefully this has provided some food for thought for any of you guys who are contemplating a build down the road. I know that this isn't the type of "deal" that everyone is looking for, but if it does look like it might be a fit, I suggest you get in touch with Tony and tell him what you are looking for, because he sure can deliver.
Jeremy.
Last edited by CDN01Hawk; 08-31-2010 at 09:59 PM.
09-04-2010, 06:56 PM
#28
M-A-N-Y times....
Actually decided to team up with a good friend one year and enter the contest but we waited a bit too long and the registration had already closed and we weren't allowed to enter. I say it was fate because I didn't have a spare minute that year and have even less now
The reality is it has gotten extremely competitive and without access to a dyno 24-7, and a crew to help with the extraordinary amount of testing, parts swapping, etc. (intensive R&D), the chances you can be at the top of the heap when the smoke clears is slim and the time you would have to put in to get there (not to mention the money) would be substantial.
My other reality is between a full time workweek at AFR and another full time gig at my personal shop building engines like the one you see here, and helping people with head and manifold work, it would be next to impossible to pull off for me. I barely get any sleep now....LOL
Down the road a ways who knows....it is a contest I would like to enter at least once just to experience the thrill of the competition and the tension of the final few days of testing. If I had to guess I would say there is a good chance I will get involved.....I think it more a matter of the right timing like most things in life.
Cheers,
Tony
PS....I have no doubt this motor would have faired reasonably well in an EMC contest assuming the contest allowed this type of entry. I have to say I feel it's one of the best engines I have built to date, especially when you look at the displacement, the fact it would be a very streetable piece on 91 octane no less, and ultimately its power and torque curve based on that displacement (EMC contests are driven by torque and power output per cubic inch). I recall one of Steve Brule's comments (the dyno operator) after we were looking at one of the final pulls....he said "Installed in the car this engine would behave like a 500 HP smallblock requiring zero maintenance but it just happens to make an additional 160 HP". We all kind of chuckled after he said that but it was one of those simple but profound statements that summed up the build pretty nicely.
Actually decided to team up with a good friend one year and enter the contest but we waited a bit too long and the registration had already closed and we weren't allowed to enter. I say it was fate because I didn't have a spare minute that year and have even less now
The reality is it has gotten extremely competitive and without access to a dyno 24-7, and a crew to help with the extraordinary amount of testing, parts swapping, etc. (intensive R&D), the chances you can be at the top of the heap when the smoke clears is slim and the time you would have to put in to get there (not to mention the money) would be substantial.
My other reality is between a full time workweek at AFR and another full time gig at my personal shop building engines like the one you see here, and helping people with head and manifold work, it would be next to impossible to pull off for me. I barely get any sleep now....LOL
Down the road a ways who knows....it is a contest I would like to enter at least once just to experience the thrill of the competition and the tension of the final few days of testing. If I had to guess I would say there is a good chance I will get involved.....I think it more a matter of the right timing like most things in life.
Cheers,
Tony
PS....I have no doubt this motor would have faired reasonably well in an EMC contest assuming the contest allowed this type of entry. I have to say I feel it's one of the best engines I have built to date, especially when you look at the displacement, the fact it would be a very streetable piece on 91 octane no less, and ultimately its power and torque curve based on that displacement (EMC contests are driven by torque and power output per cubic inch). I recall one of Steve Brule's comments (the dyno operator) after we were looking at one of the final pulls....he said "Installed in the car this engine would behave like a 500 HP smallblock requiring zero maintenance but it just happens to make an additional 160 HP". We all kind of chuckled after he said that but it was one of those simple but profound statements that summed up the build pretty nicely.
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 09-04-2010 at 07:52 PM.
09-07-2010, 10:55 PM
#30
I am glad to see a new head on the market! Good to see the LSX market is still ALIVE and creative!
Tony, in your opinion, what are the major differences between your new 230 and the TFS235s, and ETP heads of similar cc?
For the ETP cars, I usually see them work really well or not at all. The TFS heads seem to always have descent results. Do you have any track results yet from the new heads?
I'm curious what in your opinion sets your heads apart from the others?
For example, I'm so used to making a lot of power now, I'm starting to look at other issues like valvetrain noise. Seat pressure can do it for sure, but not all heads are loud. If for example, your heads met or exceeded mine in power and were quiet, hint hint hint.
Tony, in your opinion, what are the major differences between your new 230 and the TFS235s, and ETP heads of similar cc?
For the ETP cars, I usually see them work really well or not at all. The TFS heads seem to always have descent results. Do you have any track results yet from the new heads?
I'm curious what in your opinion sets your heads apart from the others?
For example, I'm so used to making a lot of power now, I'm starting to look at other issues like valvetrain noise. Seat pressure can do it for sure, but not all heads are loud. If for example, your heads met or exceeded mine in power and were quiet, hint hint hint.
09-08-2010, 01:13 AM
#31
I am glad to see a new head on the market! Good to see the LSX market is still ALIVE and creative!
Tony, in your opinion, what are the major differences between your new 230 and the TFS235s, and ETP heads of similar cc?
For the ETP cars, I usually see them work really well or not at all. The TFS heads seem to always have descent results. Do you have any track results yet from the new heads?
I'm curious what in your opinion sets your heads apart from the others?
For example, I'm so used to making a lot of power now, I'm starting to look at other issues like valvetrain noise. Seat pressure can do it for sure, but not all heads are loud. If for example, your heads met or exceeded mine in power and were quiet, hint hint hint.
Tony, in your opinion, what are the major differences between your new 230 and the TFS235s, and ETP heads of similar cc?
For the ETP cars, I usually see them work really well or not at all. The TFS heads seem to always have descent results. Do you have any track results yet from the new heads?
I'm curious what in your opinion sets your heads apart from the others?
For example, I'm so used to making a lot of power now, I'm starting to look at other issues like valvetrain noise. Seat pressure can do it for sure, but not all heads are loud. If for example, your heads met or exceeded mine in power and were quiet, hint hint hint.
You really think I'm going to remotely get into this debate? (publicly no less....LOL)
Not my style....in fact I will say that every company you mentioned puts out a solid product, but our V2 stuff in the cathedral line up is very exciting and is packed with the latest and greatest AFR has learned in the last few years (better design....better execution of the design thru better equipment, software, and us just pushing the limits of what we can produce for the money). I have a ton of development time in the new stuff....more than the owner wants to think about on an "update" of an existing product line.....trust me its a sore spot at this point but looking at the first few results it looks like that time was well spent IMO.
BTW, heads don't make noise....only valvetrain components which I view as a separate system. What your hearing is literally the valves smacking down back on the hardened seat due to your aggressive cam that opens and shuts them very quickly holding the valve close to full lift as long as possible. The good news....that makes power.....the bad news....thats the noise you are now complaining about. You could run less lift and a softer lobe but it will cost you some power.
Trade-offs...the entire performance engine game is surrounded by them. The key is to avoid as many as you can while still meeting your performance goals....easier said than done, and when its possible (big performance with little trade-offs) you can pretty much count on it costing you....also the nature of the beast.
Cheers,
Tony
09-09-2010, 11:59 AM
#33
Tony, when you order the Starbucks mocha latte frap with skim milk, does the emo girl behind the counter ask you to turn in your man card?
Anyway, very impressive results. Steve's old NA 422 solid roller with the TFS245's made just under 670 IIRC on the engine dyno. Those 230's must be working.
Anyway, very impressive results. Steve's old NA 422 solid roller with the TFS245's made just under 670 IIRC on the engine dyno. Those 230's must be working.
09-11-2010, 05:38 PM
#34
Wouldn't mind seeing a solid roller N/A 346 with the same heads as well....that would be a pretty killer set-up if you willing to spin the engine to 8K or so (shiftpoint at 8K.....peak power around 73-7500).
Im sure you guys will see a variety of combo's with these new heads by the spring of next year.
Im building another engine very similar to this build for a customer wanting to use it in a road race application. Im running a slightly different cam for this next build looking to bring the curve in a little sooner for exploding off a slow corner under 4000 RPM's.
Should be interesting to see the numbers that engine puts up as well....
-Tony
09-22-2010, 12:43 PM
#36
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Any update on the lower-rpm version dyno yet? I'm interested in this, I've got a G8 like Patrick G, and while 504RWHP on the stock bottom end is insane, I'm wondering what could be done with a 440ci, this top end, and a cam profiled for a 6200-6400 shift point? Obviously with a sticky tire the 6L80 would have a very short life, but it's just sick thinking about the possibilities of this with VVT. PD/TVS blowers could become obsolete... 
09-22-2010, 01:52 PM
#37
Any update on the lower-rpm version dyno yet? I'm interested in this, I've got a G8 like Patrick G, and while 504RWHP on the stock bottom end is insane, I'm wondering what could be done with a 440ci, this top end, and a cam profiled for a 6200-6400 shift point? Obviously with a sticky tire the 6L80 would have a very short life, but it's just sick thinking about the possibilities of this with VVT. PD/TVS blowers could become obsolete...
Realize I'm not making any drastic changes here.....just trying to bring the curve in a little sooner for a slightly more explosive charge in the 3500-4000 RPM range (road races on some tight courses).
The bottom line is I didn't feel the need to make much of a change.....at this displacement on 91 octane it would be very difficult to get a much prettier or better balanced torque and horsepower curve (notably without the aid of VVT, blowers, etc.!). If I were to try to make a big change to improve either end of the power curve, the other end would most certainly pay the price and I didn't want to go there.
Should have that data posted in 45-60 days or so if I had to guess....maybe sooner
-Tony
09-22-2010, 06:41 PM
#38
Any update on the lower-rpm version dyno yet? I'm interested in this, I've got a G8 like Patrick G, and while 504RWHP on the stock bottom end is insane, I'm wondering what could be done with a 440ci, this top end, and a cam profiled for a 6200-6400 shift point? Obviously with a sticky tire the 6L80 would have a very short life, but it's just sick thinking about the possibilities of this with VVT. PD/TVS blowers could become obsolete...
09-22-2010, 07:43 PM
#39
With 440 CID on tap the 245 represents the best head available.
Im dreaming of my own 454 build with the AFR 245's slated for December/January (to be on the engine dyno) right after I finish up the testing of the 416 I'm currently working on!
That combo is going to be a monster!
It should prove to be utterly useless in the first two gears Im sure!
Quality problems....
10-23-2010, 12:06 PM
#40
Update on the 417....
This engine is up and running in Jeremy's pristine F-Body right now and the chassis dyno numbers (and shape of the power curve) look very promising.
The tuner and owner of the shop Jeremy decided to use (Brian Wall of Wall's Rod & Custom) is very thorough and plans to spend a few days working on the tune and drivability but the numbers we got to pretty quickly already frame the story....
I will update everyone on the final results after all the tweaking and finer details are addressed and post some graphs (possibly some video), as soon as I can. Probably in the next few days or early/mid next week depending on Brian's schedule.
-Tony
This engine is up and running in Jeremy's pristine F-Body right now and the chassis dyno numbers (and shape of the power curve) look very promising.
The tuner and owner of the shop Jeremy decided to use (Brian Wall of Wall's Rod & Custom) is very thorough and plans to spend a few days working on the tune and drivability but the numbers we got to pretty quickly already frame the story....
I will update everyone on the final results after all the tweaking and finer details are addressed and post some graphs (possibly some video), as soon as I can. Probably in the next few days or early/mid next week depending on Brian's schedule.
-Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 10-23-2010 at 12:23 PM.