vettenuts

iTrader: (4)

I have AFR's with the 8019 springs, which aren't quite as high as the TFS numbers given above. My dyno looked OK but when I went to a 3/8 double taper pushrod the upper RPM cleaned up a bit as well. I think if the larger OD pushrods were introduced with the stock rockers then there were two variables and I think the pushrods were the solution.

Sofls1

iTrader: (16)

Very possible, I would definitely like to have seen the results using the YT with the correct length Manton 3/8 pushrod.

chrs1313

iTrader: (24)

do not assume 3/8" pushrods just drop right in like Brian stated...that is not true all the time

my 3/8" pushrods were rubbing on my TFS 215 heads

Shane hooked me up on some 11/32 mantons that worked great...

nice post Shane very informative as always...

racer7088

Yes I like the YTs on many of our apps where we have higher lifts and also use more spring and better pushrods.

The stockers are great though in apps for us under a certain lift and they do work fairly well and we've never had issues with them really. We usually run better pushrods with them as well.

They don't work very well at higher lifts and can eat parts up pretty fast especially when setup wrong.

Tony Mamo @ AFR

iTrader: (13)

Finally had a few minutes to chime in here....

Guys, aftermarket roller rockers....even the Ultralites which I prefer due to their lighter weight design....are more finicky about proper valvetrain set-up. This is a fact....BUT, the added time and effort put forth will reward you with more alot more valve guide life....triple if I had to put a number on it....it's quite substantial.

You will need a stout spring that ideally should be set-up tighter to coil bind with the camlift you are running (for less spring surge), valve weight itself plays a very large role, as well as pushrod selection as well which has been touched on here already (heavier wall 5/16, 11/32 or larger provided there is enough room is bonus, but not mandatory, for reasonably accurate control to 6800 or so).

Camshaft profile is also important but you don't need a lazy lobe if you have everything dialed in. Lifter selection also comes into play....the last engine I built and featured here a month or so ago (the 417 build) I ran the Morel high RPM lifters (and 11/32 pushrods) and while they are very pricey, I will say the curve was one of the smoothest to 7K I have ever seen with a hydraulic roller cam (and included the YT Ultralites as well)

In fact I have used the Ultra lites on the last half a dozen engines I have built and if you examine the dyno curves of any one of them there is no signs of valve control issues whatsoever, even the ones with standard .080 wall 5/16 rods and standard Comp or GM lifters.

Spring selection is very important as well....I have ran different springs on the dyno that had the same pressures (very close at least) and similar weight yet the power curve was much smoother with one spring versus the others. Our 8019 springs are excellent IMO when it comes to valve control.....in short, the key to achieving good results is to focus on the proper set-up (parts selection) and attention to detail.

While I believe this thread is full of good info and good intentions, my opinion is not to let it scare you or steer you away from an aftermarket rocker....just realize there is more to it than just slapping them on your engine and hoping for the best. Besides the much reduced valve guide wear, the stouter rockers can also increase performance from less flex yielding slightly more lift and duration net at the valve....no different than a stouter pushrod which is another welcomed perk to their installation obviously.

If all of this seems like a daunting task for you the stock rockers do perform admirably well but they will lead to premature guide wear in almost every application.....the more aggressive the faster that wear will likely occur.

Regards,
Tony

Sofls1

iTrader: (16)

I never did, I was just asking questions.

I'm only trying to learn for my own benefit and in this thread there has been some good information from credible sources.

GrannySShifting

iTrader: (10)

If it was floating at 5500 rpm with ultralight yella terras and the TFS as cast spring, that must be a very agressive lobe on the closing flank, and likely just bad all the way around.

Ive never had a hint of float that low with any of our cams, up at 7K plus maybe

THat curve still looks suspect up top unless its very manifold restricted?

Brian Tooley Racing

iTrader: (13)

DOH, you're right, the early TFS heads they may not fit.

The early heads have a machined hole down one side of the intake port.

The later heads that area is completely machined out, that change was made around fall of 2008, it took almost a year to get that change made.

racer7088

They still don't fit Brian but they are close at least. I am trying to work with Mike to move that around just a little. Really we need some rocker guys to make a nice .050 off set intake and it would be cured!

Brian Tooley Racing

iTrader: (13)

They fit with every 1.7 ratio rocker that I could get my hands on, but I know you're having troubles with the YT 1.8 ratio, which like you said, don't clear.

If they rotate the 235/245 port away from the pushrod hole, fix the port match, and then make a custom pushrod clearance program for you, you'll be golden. It's really not that hard to do, just some time.

racer7088

They rub even with the 1.7s still actually. We do about three sets a week at this point.

chrs1313

iTrader: (24)

this is what I have seen too...it isn't much maybe .010 or so and it wouldn't hit at all...

silverZ98

iTrader: (6)

man i wanna run these heads when i get my short block done but reading this stuff and not understanding it all kinda turns me away. I'm the average guy that can turn wrenches, and like and wants something i can bolt on and it be good, no push rods rubbing any wear and the springs set where they need to be so they don't have problems I'm reading

so when I'm ready to place a order who i need to talk too, so get me a set up that will be bolt on and not have to worry about these problems, with after marker rockers or using the stockers. i don't wanna spend all that money and 6moths down road have to pull heads to spend more money to have the guides replaced and reworked,

racer7088

3/8ths pushrods rub on most heads. 5/16ths do not run on them at all. 11/32nds can be run on intake and 3/8ths on exhaust though no problem.

Brian Tooley Racing

iTrader: (13)

I don't understand why the heads I installed on my car, all the ones we run on the dyno, and the ones I mocked up on an engine don't hit (other than the YT 1.8 rockers) and yours do? This is all with 3/8" on both sides.

What rockers are you using?

How to you check the clearance?

I've used several methods for checking, but I think the one I've used the most is running one layer of white masking tape down the pushrod, marking it black with a sharpie, mocking it up and turning the engine over. If it hits anywhere it will clearly mark the spot. I ask anyone who reads this to check theirs and respond if it hits.

vettenuts

iTrader: (4)

They are more money but this is the reason I went to the double taper 3/8" pushrods for my setup, however I am running AFR heads. The advantage is that where the pushrod passes through the head it is close to the 5/16" OD. There is minimal loss in stiffness compared to a full 3/8" pushrod. I used bluing on mine and spun the motor with the starter so I had oil pressure to check for clearance. Only issue with bluing is that if not careful with installation/removal you can falsely mark the blue.

pharmd

iTrader: (4)

What lifts do you consider reasonable?

Look at my graph we just did...PI 215's Lunati "ls1 kit" 0.660 lift springs, FAST 102, 102TB, 231/239 113 +3 0.617/0.623, ARH 1 7/8" ORY 3 1/2" opening, into 4" cutout, stock 10bolt, 3.42 gear. I was told I would be in the neighborhood of 480rwhp with this setup...the dyno that I am using is VERY conservative, so I am not suprised that its lower, but look at the graph from 5900 on, their is still quite a bit of power left there.

The blue graph is with 3/8" 0.80 wall 8.2" PR, the red is 5/16" 0.80 wall 8.2" PR. I went thru VA Speed to buy all this package, they had made the suggestion to just swap PR and that the lighter PR might clear the issue up, as you can see it didn't. We hope to shim the springs closer to coil bind, swap back to the 3/8" PR. I am looking for any suggestions you might have...although I love the "experiment" we are doing, its starting to get old with taking it back apart, re dynoing etc, I built it to enjoy driving and so far its been down more than up. Do you have any suggestions that might enable us to fix this once and for all and stop all this down time.

Thanks,

Brad

racer7088

YT 1.7s which is what we use on most of those. At this point Brian I have probably used ten times the TFS heads on engines here that you have. They don't rub by much though. The smaller TFS heads (<235s) of course can use the 3/8s at times because the pushrod hole is not over as far. Some only rub a wee bit and could be run that way but there's always a few that are worse.

Keep in mind since we do 5 engines a week and about 250 a year we see pushrod clearance a lot and on the TFS 235 stuff we already take up all the slack possible when tightening the YT rocker pairs down to the intake side to make even another .010-.015 extra clearance. It would take almost nothing to guarantee that 3/8ths fit on these heads it's so close.

But alas most of the time the 235s do touch and we recheck every once in a while just to see if we can get by with it on some. We've probably sold 50 sets of 11/32 pushrods for the intake side on the 235s to people calling us not being able to fit 3/8ths on these heads on the intake side either. I have them made ahead of time by Trend and the ones I need in weird lengths I get from Manton.

The YT 1.8s of course are much worse since the pushrod is moved up further in the head towards the stand but we know that. I have my own new lobes by Comp now so I can use 1.7 ratio on even some .700 lift stuff.

racer7088

pharmd,

Don't know anything about the springs you are using at all and a lot of the PI stuff has fairly heavy solid stem valves as they are longer valves in those heads. Also don't know how rockers are set up. I assume those are LSL lobes so you may want the bigger pushrods and maybe it needs more valve spring?

For reference we have .700 lift hydraulic roller stuff with YT rockers that turns 7500 all the time but with nice lobes and lighter valves and more spring and larger pushrods. It's all a system.

On Brian's TEA/TFS heads we have turned 7500 easily with the TFS235 as is with smooth lobes and 1.7 and 1.8 YTs and 3/8ths pushrods but again we had to do some clearancing to fit them and Brian made it MUCH easier it's just still a little bit tight on most. The TFS 235 has a decently hoss spring on it too. Those deals had carb intakes that peaked much higher and so could use the rpm.

Also make sure you have the right locks as some PI stuff is 5/16 bead loc and not 8mm.

silverZ98

iTrader: (6)

Erik Koenig what would be the right spring set up and push rods to work with the as cast trick flow heads? if i go this way i want to know everything is set up right and i wont have to pull the heads in 6months to have new guides replaced in them. what rocker set up will work best with these heads stock or the YT 1.7s is these whats needs to be done to make every thing run right. like i said before I'm the average Joe that can turn wrenches and whats to be able to bolt on something that works and not have to worry about parts wearing super fast.