Dissappointing AFR 205 Results
10-06-2010, 08:33 PM
#22
10-06-2010, 08:37 PM
#23
I wouldnt call your example a fair example.J-rod would you call the times you ran in your car the normal times that everyone runs bone stock? If i was a great of a driver as you are i would be the only cam only 6speed z06 in the 10's...
10-06-2010, 08:54 PM
#24
All bull aside, the 1 7/8 are over kill for a LS6.... some will argue but it is what it is.... You would see more torque with a 1 5/8 or 1 3/4......
Now the issue of increasing duration, you would prob see a gain with the 230cams but the other side of the story is you would see a gain even with the stock heads.... So .......... All you are doing by adding duration is shifting the torque curve outward in a simple explanation.... peak torqure happens later, horsepower peaks later.....see?
I would probably run something with a single split or 4*
222-228 for low end.......
The real question is what are your goals, something that runs well on the street? runs well on a dyno? or max effort?
Most max effort cams or dyno chasers do not necessarily well on the street.... Even when cleaned up by gearing or converters, you make compromises as you shift one way or the other along the torque curve.....
If it wasn't broke, why fix it?
JRod: his track times are possible thats about 430-437 to the rear wheels in a 3200-3300 car........
Now the issue of increasing duration, you would prob see a gain with the 230cams but the other side of the story is you would see a gain even with the stock heads.... So .......... All you are doing by adding duration is shifting the torque curve outward in a simple explanation.... peak torqure happens later, horsepower peaks later.....see?
I would probably run something with a single split or 4*
222-228 for low end.......
The real question is what are your goals, something that runs well on the street? runs well on a dyno? or max effort?
Most max effort cams or dyno chasers do not necessarily well on the street.... Even when cleaned up by gearing or converters, you make compromises as you shift one way or the other along the torque curve.....
If it wasn't broke, why fix it?
JRod: his track times are possible thats about 430-437 to the rear wheels in a 3200-3300 car........
10-07-2010, 04:28 AM
#25
Have you spoke to Tony yet? When I did my car he worked the head chambers and the exhaust improved so much we considered a single pattern 228 cam over the 224/228 I am running. We never considered the wide duration split that he mentions above in his post.
10-07-2010, 08:46 AM
#26
The 1 7/8 headers on a Vette are probly the best out there for Vette's.We've tested them against the others.
To me,your car is about 20hp more on every pull than our normal Z06.Never seen over 380rwhp on one without headers and I would be happy with the #'s above with the mods done.
Now,are there any comparable track times on this new combo?
To me,your car is about 20hp more on every pull than our normal Z06.Never seen over 380rwhp on one without headers and I would be happy with the #'s above with the mods done.
Now,are there any comparable track times on this new combo?
10-07-2010, 07:50 PM
#27
The 1 7/8 headers on a Vette are probly the best out there for Vette's.We've tested them against the others.
To me,your car is about 20hp more on every pull than our normal Z06.Never seen over 380rwhp on one without headers and I would be happy with the #'s above with the mods done.
Now,are there any comparable track times on this new combo?
To me,your car is about 20hp more on every pull than our normal Z06.Never seen over 380rwhp on one without headers and I would be happy with the #'s above with the mods done.
Now,are there any comparable track times on this new combo?
With a ported 243 castings I could see those numbers but with a 222 cam and stock heads it just seems a little strong.
Whats funny is if someone posted the same numbers with the same combo and a smiley face on the end everyone would clang beer mugs and say nice job with the small un-optimized cam. I mean how many guys fall short of that with cams 10+ degrees larger.
And speaking of that cam again its just ALL wrong for the AFR 205 as I stated much earlier in this thread (much to wide a split and too wide on LSA as well). Its the first thing that has to go IMO but I would like to hear leakdown and cranking compression figures as I also mentioned earlier just to know how well the heads are sealing up.
Ive also seen my share of heads come back to me (some for repair or additional porting work) that had poor valvejobs put in them at various shops that not only didn't seal the valve very well, but also knocked 15 CFM out of the flow curve to boot. So the fact these heads were used is a concern of mine and no shop without an intimate knowledge of this exact head would know if it was an AFR OEM valvejob in the head or someone else touched it up.
You could invest alot of time researching and digging deeper into this situation but like I said with a cam all wrong for this combo, the numbers look exactly what you would expect (closer to best case scenario honestly) assuming the dyno is producing reasonably "average" numbers....another unknown variable in the mix.
I would be more than happy to look over the heads for free just to quantify their condition should the opportunity ever arise.
-Tony
10-07-2010, 08:10 PM
#28
In the back to back testing we did, heads with 1.55" exhaust valves MADE MORE POWER EVERYWHERE WITH 1 7/8" HEADERS COMPARED TO 1 3/4"
Heads with 1.57" valves seemed to make about the same power either way.
The AFR heads with 1.60" valves made less power with Kooks 1 7/8" headers compared to Hooker 1 3/4" with a cam that had 2 degree split.
So in my humble opinion, his headers were helping his stock heads, but worked against the AFR heads.
Also, Tony is right on with the valve job stuff, more heads are ruined with shops that don't know airflow, performing valve jobs on them, then you can shake a stick at.
Last edited by Brian Tooley Racing; 10-07-2010 at 08:32 PM.
10-07-2010, 08:40 PM
#30
No i have not called him yet but i will have some time to sit down and call him on the phone tomorrow.
10-07-2010, 08:46 PM
#31
The 1 7/8 headers on a Vette are probly the best out there for Vette's.We've tested them against the others.
To me,your car is about 20hp more on every pull than our normal Z06.Never seen over 380rwhp on one without headers and I would be happy with the #'s above with the mods done.
Now,are there any comparable track times on this new combo?
To me,your car is about 20hp more on every pull than our normal Z06.Never seen over 380rwhp on one without headers and I would be happy with the #'s above with the mods done.
Now,are there any comparable track times on this new combo?
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...k-results.html Take at look at that one. He makes 430/415 Threw an STALLED AUTO,ls6 intake,Ls6 heads on a camaro.There are a bunch more examples out there that proves that the baby eps cams produce great numbers.
10-07-2010, 09:22 PM
#32
I agree...His baseline just seems about 20 high IMO
With a ported 243 castings I could see those numbers but with a 222 cam and stock heads it just seems a little strong.
Whats funny is if someone posted the same numbers with the same combo and a smiley face on the end everyone would clang beer mugs and say nice job with the small un-optimized cam. I mean how many guys fall short of that with cams 10+ degrees larger.
And speaking of that cam again its just ALL wrong for the AFR 205 as I stated much earlier in this thread (much to wide a split and too wide on LSA as well). Its the first thing that has to go IMO but I would like to hear leakdown and cranking compression figures as I also mentioned earlier just to know how well the heads are sealing up.
Ive also seen my share of heads come back to me (some for repair or additional porting work) that had poor valvejobs put in them at various shops that not only didn't seal the valve very well, but also knocked 15 CFM out of the flow curve to boot. So the fact these heads were used is a concern of mine and no shop without an intimate knowledge of this exact head would know if it was an AFR OEM valvejob in the head or someone else touched it up.
You could invest alot of time researching and digging deeper into this situation but like I said with a cam all wrong for this combo, the numbers look exactly what you would expect (closer to best case scenario honestly) assuming the dyno is producing reasonably "average" numbers....another unknown variable in the mix.
I would be more than happy to look over the heads for free just to quantify their condition should the opportunity ever arise.
-Tony
With a ported 243 castings I could see those numbers but with a 222 cam and stock heads it just seems a little strong.
Whats funny is if someone posted the same numbers with the same combo and a smiley face on the end everyone would clang beer mugs and say nice job with the small un-optimized cam. I mean how many guys fall short of that with cams 10+ degrees larger.
And speaking of that cam again its just ALL wrong for the AFR 205 as I stated much earlier in this thread (much to wide a split and too wide on LSA as well). Its the first thing that has to go IMO but I would like to hear leakdown and cranking compression figures as I also mentioned earlier just to know how well the heads are sealing up.
Ive also seen my share of heads come back to me (some for repair or additional porting work) that had poor valvejobs put in them at various shops that not only didn't seal the valve very well, but also knocked 15 CFM out of the flow curve to boot. So the fact these heads were used is a concern of mine and no shop without an intimate knowledge of this exact head would know if it was an AFR OEM valvejob in the head or someone else touched it up.
You could invest alot of time researching and digging deeper into this situation but like I said with a cam all wrong for this combo, the numbers look exactly what you would expect (closer to best case scenario honestly) assuming the dyno is producing reasonably "average" numbers....another unknown variable in the mix.
I would be more than happy to look over the heads for free just to quantify their condition should the opportunity ever arise.
-Tony
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...k-results.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...-mild-cam.html
Both of those post above proves that my car is not out of the norm of what the baby eps cams can produce.I also may add that your good friend Pat G was involved in both builds so maybe he can chime in and back me up on how good these baby eps cams are. I might have to take you up on the offer to send my heads and have you check them out. Have any idea what shipping would run me from 94115? Yes i fully understand that the cam is all wrong for these heads i kinda knew that already but i also didnt expect to only pick up 10hp and have basically an exact trace of my dyno with the 243 heads. Truthfully i was more concerned about picking up on the low and mid range numbers than i was about the peak numbers. When i get some time tomorrow i will give you a phone call so we can talk about this over the phone and see if we can put together somthing and turn this into a success story. Thanks again for taking the time to look into this and i do appreciate it.
10-07-2010, 09:28 PM
#33
Whould you mind sharing your numbers with us please?
10-07-2010, 09:38 PM
#34
Opening point of the exhaust valve and overlap would be my guess.
The only thing I don't like about Tony's generalized statement is there is no mention of intake center from the car owner and that changes things a little. But for numbers sake:
Assuming it's on a 108icl ehaxust valve open at .050 = 59* ATDC
vs
a more traditional 224/224 with a 108icl and 112lsa having EVO at .050 = 48* ATDC
The overlaps however would be fairly close -2 for the current cam vs 0 for the hypothetical 224/224 cam.
Last edited by LIL SS; 10-07-2010 at 09:46 PM.
10-07-2010, 09:56 PM
#36
Opening point of the exhaust valve and overlap would be my guess.
The only thing I don't like about Tony's generalized statement is there is no mention of intake center from the car owner and that changes things a little. But for numbers sake:
Assuming it's on a 108icl ehaxust valve open at .050 = 59* ATDC
vs
a more traditional 224/224 with a 108icl and 112lsa having EVO at .050 = 48* ATDC
The overlaps however would be fairly close -2 for the current cam vs 0 for the hypothetical 224/224 cam.
The only thing I don't like about Tony's generalized statement is there is no mention of intake center from the car owner and that changes things a little. But for numbers sake:
Assuming it's on a 108icl ehaxust valve open at .050 = 59* ATDC
vs
a more traditional 224/224 with a 108icl and 112lsa having EVO at .050 = 48* ATDC
The overlaps however would be fairly close -2 for the current cam vs 0 for the hypothetical 224/224 cam.
10-08-2010, 05:02 AM
#37
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Opening point of the exhaust valve and overlap would be my guess.
The only thing I don't like about Tony's generalized statement is there is no mention of intake center from the car owner and that changes things a little. But for numbers sake:
Assuming it's on a 108icl ehaxust valve open at .050 = 59* ATDC
vs
a more traditional 224/224 with a 108icl and 112lsa having EVO at .050 = 48* ATDC
The overlaps however would be fairly close -2 for the current cam vs 0 for the hypothetical 224/224 cam.
The only thing I don't like about Tony's generalized statement is there is no mention of intake center from the car owner and that changes things a little. But for numbers sake:
Assuming it's on a 108icl ehaxust valve open at .050 = 59* ATDC
vs
a more traditional 224/224 with a 108icl and 112lsa having EVO at .050 = 48* ATDC
The overlaps however would be fairly close -2 for the current cam vs 0 for the hypothetical 224/224 cam.
10-08-2010, 01:56 PM
#38
The far bigger issue here (with the OP's power concerns) is exhaust flow....we have a big tube header....a high flowing exhaust port, and a really big split favoring the exhaust which makes things even worse. A smaller header and less exhaust lobe would have been better....assuming the OP retains his current header I would likely spec him a single pattern cam to improve the torque and power curve.
Don't forget that as soon as you open that exhaust valve your cylinder pressure falls off instantly and the piston no longer applies force to the crankshaft. You want to delay that exhaust valve opening as much as you can get away with and hold it open just long enough to get the job done. With the high flowing AFR exhaust port you can keep that valve closed longer, allowing that piston to impart more energy into the crank, and then open it to exhale the spent charge quickly.
Like Brian mentioned, the cam and header helped the stock set-up but hurt the AFR equipped version of it. Combination is everything guys....
-Tony
10-11-2010, 07:37 AM
#39
I've posted this about a thousand times, but I'm going to post it one more time.
In the back to back testing we did, heads with 1.55" exhaust valves MADE MORE POWER EVERYWHERE WITH 1 7/8" HEADERS COMPARED TO 1 3/4"
Heads with 1.57" valves seemed to make about the same power either way.
The AFR heads with 1.60" valves made less power with Kooks 1 7/8" headers compared to Hooker 1 3/4" with a cam that had 2 degree split.
So in my humble opinion, his headers were helping his stock heads, but worked against the AFR heads.
Also, Tony is right on with the valve job stuff, more heads are ruined with shops that don't know airflow, performing valve jobs on them, then you can shake a stick at.
In the back to back testing we did, heads with 1.55" exhaust valves MADE MORE POWER EVERYWHERE WITH 1 7/8" HEADERS COMPARED TO 1 3/4"
Heads with 1.57" valves seemed to make about the same power either way.
The AFR heads with 1.60" valves made less power with Kooks 1 7/8" headers compared to Hooker 1 3/4" with a cam that had 2 degree split.
So in my humble opinion, his headers were helping his stock heads, but worked against the AFR heads.
Also, Tony is right on with the valve job stuff, more heads are ruined with shops that don't know airflow, performing valve jobs on them, then you can shake a stick at.
Curious to find out if you ever did any testing between 4:1 headers vs. Tri-Y and if so what the results were?
10-11-2010, 03:10 PM
#40
My personal belief on the exhaust side of a street LS engine is, it's simply a tuning tool. Max power is achieved at proper scavenging, and then under scavenging or over scavenging from that point reduces power. As opposed to the intake side where there is no such thing as too much flow, only too much area.
The tools we have to tune with are exhaust flow, valve diameter, port volume (which probably affects scavenging more than flow) cam duration and lift, primary header diameter, primary header length, collector diameter, collector shape, exhaust pipe diameter and length.
We tend to like small exhaust ports, so then regular headers seem to work. The AFR 205 exhaust ports have more volume than a TFS 245 for example. I think when I measured they were 89cc, the TFS small heads are low 80's, and the 235/245 are 87cc. It seems like most of the high horsepower AFR 205 combinations had LG long tubes, which have crazy long primary lengths and are only 1 3/4" diameter.
For example on my 705hp 454 cu in engine, I used the TEA 90cc nitrous exhaust port to crutch the smallish 1 7/8" headers that I had, and I also opened the exhaust valve 69 degrees BBDC. Most would say that opening point is too soon, but it worked for my combination....it all goes back to combination.
BTW, exhaust valve open EVO is degrees BBDC, EVC is ATDC.
Last edited by Brian Tooley Racing; 10-11-2010 at 03:32 PM.