Dissappointing AFR 205 Results
10-14-2010, 07:21 PM
#61
Tony,
With all do respect things should be talked about in a post instead of a PM. Unless someone is bad mouthing a product without telling the whole story. By having the OP
post his results helps people learn and see what people experience from a product.
Some say to run a big cam to get more power from a certain head, well even stock heads can have good gains from a bigger cam. But if an aftermarket head only shows a
few more HP over a stock head that flows 40cfm less, then just throwing a bigger cam or bigger intake is not the answer. It be good for us to see how the OP's setup turns out and see what gains he gets at the track from the AFR head install.
Thats the whole reason why public forums exist.
With all do respect things should be talked about in a post instead of a PM. Unless someone is bad mouthing a product without telling the whole story. By having the OP
post his results helps people learn and see what people experience from a product.
Some say to run a big cam to get more power from a certain head, well even stock heads can have good gains from a bigger cam. But if an aftermarket head only shows a
few more HP over a stock head that flows 40cfm less, then just throwing a bigger cam or bigger intake is not the answer. It be good for us to see how the OP's setup turns out and see what gains he gets at the track from the AFR head install.
Thats the whole reason why public forums exist.
I've clearly addressed what I view to be the larger issues here in my former posts in this thread....there is no funny business going on here....in fact everything is out in the open.
To recap, the headers are too big....the cam is all wrong....and the AFR heads were used lending question to how well they flow and seal combustion pressure. These are just the items we know are glaringly wrong....who knows what else may be hidden.
We cant do much about the headers but I will try to cam around it best I can....the OP may also be sending me the heads to look things over and evaluate their condition, valve job, etc.
We are hiding nothing guys and hope to have a happy ending to the story in a few weeks/month etc. This stuff takes time to sort out
Lets not forget the number he is already producing with this mild a cam and not an optimal package is already impressive by anyone's standards....certainly anyone reasonable without a negative agenda here
-Tony
10-14-2010, 07:53 PM
#62
I know you'll help the OP. But how can a cam be all wrong? Honestly. A 222 cam will add atleast 50 rwhp on a cam only car. Then are you saying that your $2,300 heads can't run smaller cams? Cause not everyone wants a 230+ racing cam. And you recommended alot the 224 cam. So hows a 222 cam all wrong. One thing about LS1's is they make power by accident. I agree that no way does 1 7/8" headers belong anywhere near a 346cid NA motor. But his headers and cam cant hurt him that much. Well not the cam...the headers would not hurt his low end since he would loose some exhaust velocity. To be honest i would love to try 1 5/8" long tubes if they made them for LS1's. I would just like to see the tq gain, and with the right y-pipe HP wouldn't even suffer. But getting back...he ran 11.4's@120 with a 210cc stock LS6 head that flows 265cfm. So if his stock heads and the headers ran those times i would like to know why he only got 11 hp and 3 tq. Sure a bigger cam will make more hp,but will he lower his ET's?
And now his driveability will become a little issue.
And now his driveability will become a little issue.
10-14-2010, 08:02 PM
#63
I hope you aren't saying that i have a " negative agenda " ? My post only said it's good
for people to post there experiences, period. You are the only person talking about "hiding anything" I cant see anyone saying you are trying to hide a thing. You must have a guilty conscience i guess. And if you're saying i have a agenda its only to find out what people run at the track after AFR heads are installed and thats my agenda if thats what you call it. You sound little like your heads are perfect and if anyone asked questions about them you're gonna say people have agenda's? LOL..OK i guess i should blindly buy something that cost over $2,000 and more on a FAST setup.
for people to post there experiences, period. You are the only person talking about "hiding anything" I cant see anyone saying you are trying to hide a thing. You must have a guilty conscience i guess. And if you're saying i have a agenda its only to find out what people run at the track after AFR heads are installed and thats my agenda if thats what you call it. You sound little like your heads are perfect and if anyone asked questions about them you're gonna say people have agenda's? LOL..OK i guess i should blindly buy something that cost over $2,000 and more on a FAST setup.
10-14-2010, 08:29 PM
#64
I know you'll help the OP. But how can a cam be all wrong? Honestly. A 222 cam will add atleast 50 rwhp on a cam only car. Then are you saying that your $2,300 heads can't run smaller cams? Cause not everyone wants a 230+ racing cam. And you recommended alot the 224 cam. So hows a 222 cam all wrong. One thing about LS1's is they make power by accident. I agree that no way does 1 7/8" headers belong anywhere near a 346cid NA motor. But his headers and cam cant hurt him that much. Well not the cam...the headers would not hurt his low end since he would loose some exhaust velocity. To be honest i would love to try 1 5/8" long tubes if they made them for LS1's. I would just like to see the tq gain, and with the right y-pipe HP wouldn't even suffer. But getting back...he ran 11.4's@120 with a 210cc stock LS6 head that flows 265cfm. So if his stock heads and the headers ran those times i would like to know why he only got 11 hp and 3 tq. Sure a bigger cam will make more hp,but will he lower his ET's?
And now his driveability will become a little issue.
And now his driveability will become a little issue.
And I would appreciate if you turned it down a notch
The cam IS all wrong for two reasons and once again it appears your NOT READING the damn thread because its already been discussed (which I find a bit frustrating and sense others might as well).
You have a cam with far too big an exhaust split for an AFR head (twelve degrees if you cared to look) compounded by the fact its got much too big a header making the 12' split even more detrimental to torque and power output. Its a really poor match up....essentially your blowing all the damn cylinder pressure into the header tubes....not allowing it more time to work on the piston and produce energy (aka torque and horsepower).
Now due to the fact the stock exhaust port is weak, the cam he was running (with the larger header) likely worked in his favor but ultimately this was a very bad combination with the AFR heads....period.
Does this make a little more sense to you now?
Trust me when we straighten out the rest of this combo not only will his power improve but so will his track times but what I find interesting is you seem alot more agitated by it than the OP for some odd reason.
How about we let this deal play out and see what we are looking at when the smoke clears. Unfortunately its going to take some time but all of you will have a ringside seat to the end results and I'm sure its going to be interesting one way or another.
-Tony
Last edited by Tony Mamo @ AFR; 10-14-2010 at 08:53 PM.
10-14-2010, 08:43 PM
#65
Wow this is getting very intresting... 
I guess i will just sit back and watch. I am for sure going to go with the cam swap there is no doubt about that. Now as for as the headers they are going to stay on the car i dont think spending another 1200 on headers would be worth the gain imo. So like Tony has said you guys will have a ringside seat to the end results.
I guess i will just sit back and watch. I am for sure going to go with the cam swap there is no doubt about that. Now as for as the headers they are going to stay on the car i dont think spending another 1200 on headers would be worth the gain imo. So like Tony has said you guys will have a ringside seat to the end results.
10-14-2010, 09:28 PM
#66
No....our heads run extremely well with the correct "smaller cam"....thats been documented for the better part of five years now.
And I would appreciate if you turned it down a notch
The cam IS all wrong for two reasons and once again it appears your NOT READING the damn thread because its already been discussed (which I find a bit frustrating and sense others might as well).
You have a cam with far too big an exhaust split for an AFR head (twelve degrees if you cared to look) compounded by the fact its got much too big a header making the 12' split even more detrimental to torque and power output. Its a really poor match up....essentially your blowing all the damn cylinder pressure into the header tubes....not allowing it more time to work on the piston and produce energy (aka torque and horsepower).
Now due to the fact the stock exhaust port is weak, the cam he was running (with the larger header) likely worked in his favor but ultimately this was a very bad combination with the AFR heads....period.
Does this make a little more sense to you now?
Trust me when we straighten out the rest of this combo not only will his power improve but so will his track times but what I find interesting is you seem alot more agitated by it than the OP for some odd reason.
How about we let this deal play out and see what we are looking at when the smoke clears. Unfortunately its going to take some time but all of you will have a ringside seat to the end results and I'm sure its going to be interesting one way or another.
-Tony
And I would appreciate if you turned it down a notch
The cam IS all wrong for two reasons and once again it appears your NOT READING the damn thread because its already been discussed (which I find a bit frustrating and sense others might as well).
You have a cam with far too big an exhaust split for an AFR head (twelve degrees if you cared to look) compounded by the fact its got much too big a header making the 12' split even more detrimental to torque and power output. Its a really poor match up....essentially your blowing all the damn cylinder pressure into the header tubes....not allowing it more time to work on the piston and produce energy (aka torque and horsepower).
Now due to the fact the stock exhaust port is weak, the cam he was running (with the larger header) likely worked in his favor but ultimately this was a very bad combination with the AFR heads....period.
Does this make a little more sense to you now?
Trust me when we straighten out the rest of this combo not only will his power improve but so will his track times but what I find interesting is you seem alot more agitated by it than the OP for some odd reason.
How about we let this deal play out and see what we are looking at when the smoke clears. Unfortunately its going to take some time but all of you will have a ringside seat to the end results and I'm sure its going to be interesting one way or another.
-Tony
which would hold the exhaust in the chamber alittle longer. I'm only asking how the cam was an issue...i even said the headers are too big, i guess your not reading all the post either. I only got upset when you made the accusation that i had an agenda AND that you made it seem that i make saying you were hiding something. Plus i was posting with other members on what worked on my cars, sorry that bothers you, but if i can add my experiences i'll continue. And i didn;t tell how to do your job.
10-14-2010, 09:37 PM
#67
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Damn Tony, you'd swear this was your first rodeo. 
I'm sure once the you get the details sorted out the results will be good.....just as they have been since the heads have hit the market.
I'm sure once the you get the details sorted out the results will be good.....just as they have been since the heads have hit the market.
10-14-2010, 10:15 PM
#68
Would like to move this thread in a more positive direction....OP that means you need to finish your popcorn and lets figure out which direction we are going here. Get in touch with me via PM or phone again and let's get a game plan together.
Cheers,
Tony
10-14-2010, 11:02 PM
#70
I would still have to wonder about the valve job...and knowing what I know about bronze valve guides and stock rockers...I would have to wonder about the guides too...worn guides sure don't help power output...
Winter is coming, maybe the OP should consider pulling the heads for inspection...
Winter is coming, maybe the OP should consider pulling the heads for inspection...
10-15-2010, 02:12 AM
#71
TECH Resident
I am very interested in this thread. I was planning to pull my ls6 intake and prc 2.5 ls6s in favor of a mamofied 102 and afr 230s. I can also vouch for Newtechs dyno. It is actualy on the stingy side if you ask me. When I was ms4 cam only i only put down 400rwhp. But was beating cars that dynod 20-30 hp more at other shops. To the OP hope everything works ou in the end..
10-15-2010, 09:29 AM
#74
My sanity check is airflow thru the MAF.......you can't mes with that one. I just went thru a good go around with a dyno manufacturer & it was airflow logged that backed my claims!
10-15-2010, 09:51 AM
#75
Car has 42lb Green tops on it. I believe i mentioned that already. Also i did Mention that the heads were sent to a machine shop. But i will also send the heads to Tony so he can have a 2nd look at them.
10-15-2010, 09:58 AM
#76
Very good sanity check! If you are making the claimed power you should see an indication in the duty cycle......never thought of that one!
My sanity check is airflow thru the MAF.......you can't mes with that one. I just went thru a good go around with a dyno manufacturer & it was airflow logged that backed my claims!
10-15-2010, 10:03 AM
#77
I am very interested in this thread. I was planning to pull my ls6 intake and prc 2.5 ls6s in favor of a mamofied 102 and afr 230s. I can also vouch for Newtechs dyno. It is actualy on the stingy side if you ask me. When I was ms4 cam only i only put down 400rwhp. But was beating cars that dynod 20-30 hp more at other shops. To the OP hope everything works ou in the end..
10-15-2010, 12:42 PM
#79
Here you go....
Dale copied my former 346 package to the letter but also added a slightly larger cam per my recommendation and also opted for my reworked AFR 205's versus out of the box like I ran on my combo which made 475 -480 RWHP with the AFR 224/228 cam.
His net results were very impressive....another example of how combination (right and wrong) means everything
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...-500-rwhp.html
-Tony
Dale copied my former 346 package to the letter but also added a slightly larger cam per my recommendation and also opted for my reworked AFR 205's versus out of the box like I ran on my combo which made 475 -480 RWHP with the AFR 224/228 cam.
His net results were very impressive....another example of how combination (right and wrong) means everything
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...-500-rwhp.html
-Tony