Dissappointing AFR 205 Results
10-11-2010, 07:02 PM
#42
10-11-2010, 09:30 PM
#43
Cool!
It's funny how things spin at times.
Is it safe to assume that everything was optimized? I'm looking at the dips with both headers.
The 1 3/4 tube dip has had many discussions, QTP headers correct that then move the dip further up.
At lot of work & expense on your part, Tx's for sharing.
It's funny how things spin at times.
Is it safe to assume that everything was optimized? I'm looking at the dips with both headers.
The 1 3/4 tube dip has had many discussions, QTP headers correct that then move the dip further up.
At lot of work & expense on your part, Tx's for sharing.
10-11-2010, 11:02 PM
#44
First off this is not an attempt to bash afr in anyway.But i am not happy with my results after spending my money on these heads.
So i will start with this. My car is 03 z06. Before the afr heads the car made 440/400 to the wheels. Engine Specs were Stock Ls6 Heads, Custom Grind EPS Cam 222/234 596/601 on a 115lsa, 1 7/8 Kooks Long Tube Headers with cats,Stock Titanium Mufflers DHM Low Profile Cut Outs, Vararam Cold Air Intake with Power Duct,Fast 92/90, Slp UnderDrive Pulley, Stock Injectors.
Best time in the car has been 11.44 at 120.
So i got a really good deal on some low mile AFR heads.Heads have been milled to .024" so they are 62cc. Bolted them on along with some 42lb Injectors, Bumped my compression up to 11.5-1. Took my car to the same shop that i have always been going to Newtech Performance. Long story short my car made a best of 451/403. So i picked up 11hp and
3ftlb
I was heart broken. I know some of you are thinking this cam is to small for these heads which i fully understand, but the problem is that the hp that i gained is really nothing at all. The gain could of came from the bigger injectors and the bump in compression for all i know.Tony from AFR has always advertised the benefit of Airspeed, Killer Low and Midlift Flow and strong speak #'s. I dont think i got any of this 
. My dyno sheet of before the heads and after looks like exactly the same except a little bump towards the end.
So this is an call out to Tony Mamo himself to spec me a cam that will make me some where in the 470-480 hp range with about 420-430 ftlb's. I would perfer not to flycut the pistons but if it is a must so be it. I would like to go with a cam from EPS because i have had good results with this cam intill now but if you think i should have someone else grind the cam i have no problem.This car is a street car first so i want to be able to daily drive the car if i like with out having any problems with driveability. I know i could pick up about 20hp by sending my heads and intake to Tony for a port job but im not ready to spend that type of money again on these heads. Like i said this is not a AFR bash at all i am just and unhappy customer and looking for Tony's help to make things right. Attached is my dyno sheet.Attachment 257321
So i will start with this. My car is 03 z06. Before the afr heads the car made 440/400 to the wheels. Engine Specs were Stock Ls6 Heads, Custom Grind EPS Cam 222/234 596/601 on a 115lsa, 1 7/8 Kooks Long Tube Headers with cats,Stock Titanium Mufflers DHM Low Profile Cut Outs, Vararam Cold Air Intake with Power Duct,Fast 92/90, Slp UnderDrive Pulley, Stock Injectors.
Best time in the car has been 11.44 at 120.
So i got a really good deal on some low mile AFR heads.Heads have been milled to .024" so they are 62cc. Bolted them on along with some 42lb Injectors, Bumped my compression up to 11.5-1. Took my car to the same shop that i have always been going to Newtech Performance. Long story short my car made a best of 451/403. So i picked up 11hp and
3ftlb
I was heart broken. I know some of you are thinking this cam is to small for these heads which i fully understand, but the problem is that the hp that i gained is really nothing at all. The gain could of came from the bigger injectors and the bump in compression for all i know.Tony from AFR has always advertised the benefit of Airspeed, Killer Low and Midlift Flow and strong speak #'s. I dont think i got any of this . My dyno sheet of before the heads and after looks like exactly the same except a little bump towards the end.So this is an call out to Tony Mamo himself to spec me a cam that will make me some where in the 470-480 hp range with about 420-430 ftlb's. I would perfer not to flycut the pistons but if it is a must so be it. I would like to go with a cam from EPS because i have had good results with this cam intill now but if you think i should have someone else grind the cam i have no problem.This car is a street car first so i want to be able to daily drive the car if i like with out having any problems with driveability. I know i could pick up about 20hp by sending my heads and intake to Tony for a port job but im not ready to spend that type of money again on these heads. Like i said this is not a AFR bash at all i am just and unhappy customer and looking for Tony's help to make things right. Attached is my dyno sheet.Attachment 257321
most people are stretching for 450 RWHP on a loose dyno with a much bigger cam(240ish on intake and exhaust) in an LS1/LS6 block
the heads you have are great..if you have a lot of intake duration to keep up with the exhaust. but you have a massive exhaust duration for you small intake side and you lose all your cylinder pressure before you get back to the intake again.
on the other hand... that cam would be great for nitrous... spray a 200 shot and let it eat...you will get some great returns from a larger nitrous setup with that cam.
you wont pick up another 20hp from a port job with that cam...
you would be better served spending money on a new cam with more intake duration to support your AFR 205 heads.
one thing I have found from my tuning experience(and I have tuned a lot of LS based cars) is the AFR heads love a large intake duration
11.4x is great on that setup...I would not expect it to do that good just from being told what you had for parts.
and once again... if you notice... several sponsors who are known for knowing their **** better than 95% of the crowd.. have all said.. your cam is too small
the problem is not the heads.. its the cam
10-11-2010, 11:18 PM
#45
for a 2003 Zo6 that has an LS6 engine in it... you have a lot more power than 95% of people with a heads/small cam combo...and you have a small cam
most people are stretching for 450 RWHP on a loose dyno with a much bigger cam(240ish on intake and exhaust) in an LS1/LS6 block
the heads you have are great..if you have a lot of intake duration to keep up with the exhaust. but you have a massive exhaust duration for you small intake side and you lose all your cylinder pressure before you get back to the intake again.
on the other hand... that cam would be great for nitrous... spray a 200 shot and let it eat...you will get some great returns from a larger nitrous setup with that cam.
you wont pick up another 20hp from a port job with that cam...
you would be better served spending money on a new cam with more intake duration to support your AFR 205 heads.
one thing I have found from my tuning experience(and I have tuned a lot of LS based cars) is the AFR heads love a large intake duration
11.4x is great on that setup...I would not expect it to do that good just from being told what you had for parts.
and once again... if you notice... several sponsors who are known for knowing their **** better than 95% of the crowd.. have all said.. your cam is too small
the problem is not the heads.. its the cam
most people are stretching for 450 RWHP on a loose dyno with a much bigger cam(240ish on intake and exhaust) in an LS1/LS6 block
the heads you have are great..if you have a lot of intake duration to keep up with the exhaust. but you have a massive exhaust duration for you small intake side and you lose all your cylinder pressure before you get back to the intake again.
on the other hand... that cam would be great for nitrous... spray a 200 shot and let it eat...you will get some great returns from a larger nitrous setup with that cam.
you wont pick up another 20hp from a port job with that cam...
you would be better served spending money on a new cam with more intake duration to support your AFR 205 heads.
one thing I have found from my tuning experience(and I have tuned a lot of LS based cars) is the AFR heads love a large intake duration
11.4x is great on that setup...I would not expect it to do that good just from being told what you had for parts.
and once again... if you notice... several sponsors who are known for knowing their **** better than 95% of the crowd.. have all said.. your cam is too small
the problem is not the heads.. its the cam
10-11-2010, 11:21 PM
#46
10-11-2010, 11:28 PM
#47
Thanks for your input.Yes like i have already stated I knew the cam was to small before i put the heads on that has been addressed already i understand this that is why i am going with a bigger cam just waiting for tony to return my call. But on the other hand. AFR has always said smaller port= more air velocity. I was expecting to have at least a different looking dyno graph and a different torque curve. If you take a look it looks like a preschool kid traced my dyno sheet and gave me 10 bonus points at the end lol. The car is also getting a RPS Street TWIN LITE clutch so that should help free up some pony's.
smaller port does = more velocity
smaller cam does not equal smaller port
that dyno shows your limiting factor is your cam... no changes down low means you have more head than your cam can provide
the extra 10 up top is the same issue... more heads than your cam can provide..
many people get upset about results because they dont know how to read a dyno graph when compared to previous mods.. they always blame the most recent thing they put on the car instead of looking at the big picture
example... if you have heads that support 280 cfm..and your cam allows you to provide that 280.. then great... if you increase the amount of airflow your heads can flow(ie.. the AFR's) and they now can flow 310,then you wont see any increases with the heads..
if you had a cam that supported 350cfm, and you went from heads that flowed 280 to heads that flowed 310.. you would see a noticeably bigger increase everywhere...
in your case.. the small intake port of your cam sill only allow so much air in...it is your restriction... especially down low where the air is moving much slower
10-12-2010, 12:48 AM
#48
smaller port does = more velocity
smaller cam does not equal smaller port
that dyno shows your limiting factor is your cam... no changes down low means you have more head than your cam can provide
the extra 10 up top is the same issue... more heads than your cam can provide..
many people get upset about results because they dont know how to read a dyno graph when compared to previous mods.. they always blame the most recent thing they put on the car instead of looking at the big picture
example... if you have heads that support 280 cfm..and your cam allows you to provide that 280.. then great... if you increase the amount of airflow your heads can flow(ie.. the AFR's) and they now can flow 310,then you wont see any increases with the heads..
if you had a cam that supported 350cfm, and you went from heads that flowed 280 to heads that flowed 310.. you would see a noticeably bigger increase everywhere...
in your case.. the small intake port of your cam sill only allow so much air in...it is your restriction... especially down low where the air is moving much slower
smaller cam does not equal smaller port
that dyno shows your limiting factor is your cam... no changes down low means you have more head than your cam can provide
the extra 10 up top is the same issue... more heads than your cam can provide..
many people get upset about results because they dont know how to read a dyno graph when compared to previous mods.. they always blame the most recent thing they put on the car instead of looking at the big picture
example... if you have heads that support 280 cfm..and your cam allows you to provide that 280.. then great... if you increase the amount of airflow your heads can flow(ie.. the AFR's) and they now can flow 310,then you wont see any increases with the heads..
if you had a cam that supported 350cfm, and you went from heads that flowed 280 to heads that flowed 310.. you would see a noticeably bigger increase everywhere...
in your case.. the small intake port of your cam sill only allow so much air in...it is your restriction... especially down low where the air is moving much slower
10-12-2010, 02:16 AM
#50
Yes i am going to change the cam out. This thread would be a total let down if i did not. As i said before i am just waiting for a call back from tony to see what are the plans for the cam....
10-12-2010, 05:03 AM
#51
Do you plan to install the clutch and do a before an after (clutch as the only change) when you do this? This is one item on my future list and I would be really interested on the effect of the clutch. I have seen the Fidanza before and after dyno's and it made quite a difference in the measured power curve at the wheels.
10-12-2010, 10:13 AM
#52
Do you plan to install the clutch and do a before an after (clutch as the only change) when you do this? This is one item on my future list and I would be really interested on the effect of the clutch. I have seen the Fidanza before and after dyno's and it made quite a difference in the measured power curve at the wheels.
10-12-2010, 02:53 PM
#53
Looks like I got your phone number wrong. Try me back at my direct line or better yet PM me your number and I will call you ASAP regarding the new cam and your situation.
Thanks,
Tony
10-13-2010, 04:22 PM
#56
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I feel this thread will teach alot of us a lesson. Listen to tony and brian, two of the most respected lsx junkies in the country. I have feeling a cam and header change will be night and day. Subscribed.
10-14-2010, 02:16 AM
#57
10-14-2010, 05:42 PM
#58
Tony,
With all do respect things should be talked about in a post instead of a PM. Unless someone is bad mouthing a product without telling the whole story. By having the OP
post his results helps people learn and see what people experience from a product.
Some say to run a big cam to get more power from a certain head, well even stock heads can have good gains from a bigger cam. But if an aftermarket head only shows a
few more HP over a stock head that flows 40cfm less, then just throwing a bigger cam or bigger intake is not the answer. It be good for us to see how the OP's setup turns out and see what gains he gets at the track from the AFR head install.
Thats the whole reason why public forums exist.
With all do respect things should be talked about in a post instead of a PM. Unless someone is bad mouthing a product without telling the whole story. By having the OP
post his results helps people learn and see what people experience from a product.
Some say to run a big cam to get more power from a certain head, well even stock heads can have good gains from a bigger cam. But if an aftermarket head only shows a
few more HP over a stock head that flows 40cfm less, then just throwing a bigger cam or bigger intake is not the answer. It be good for us to see how the OP's setup turns out and see what gains he gets at the track from the AFR head install.
Thats the whole reason why public forums exist.
10-14-2010, 06:13 PM
#59
smaller port does = more velocity
smaller cam does not equal smaller port
that dyno shows your limiting factor is your cam... no changes down low means you have more head than your cam can provide
the extra 10 up top is the same issue... more heads than your cam can provide..
many people get upset about results because they dont know how to read a dyno graph when compared to previous mods.. they always blame the most recent thing they put on the car instead of looking at the big picture
example... if you have heads that support 280 cfm..and your cam allows you to provide that 280.. then great... if you increase the amount of airflow your heads can flow(ie.. the AFR's) and they now can flow 310,then you wont see any increases with the heads..
if you had a cam that supported 350cfm, and you went from heads that flowed 280 to heads that flowed 310.. you would see a noticeably bigger increase everywhere...
in your case.. the small intake port of your cam sill only allow so much air in...it is your restriction... especially down low where the air is moving much slower
smaller cam does not equal smaller port
that dyno shows your limiting factor is your cam... no changes down low means you have more head than your cam can provide
the extra 10 up top is the same issue... more heads than your cam can provide..
many people get upset about results because they dont know how to read a dyno graph when compared to previous mods.. they always blame the most recent thing they put on the car instead of looking at the big picture
example... if you have heads that support 280 cfm..and your cam allows you to provide that 280.. then great... if you increase the amount of airflow your heads can flow(ie.. the AFR's) and they now can flow 310,then you wont see any increases with the heads..
if you had a cam that supported 350cfm, and you went from heads that flowed 280 to heads that flowed 310.. you would see a noticeably bigger increase everywhere...
in your case.. the small intake port of your cam sill only allow so much air in...it is your restriction... especially down low where the air is moving much slower
Thats not totally true. Duration is what makes the biggest increase from a cam. CFM has nothing to directly do with a cam. If that were the case then all the cam only guys wouldn't run as fast as they do, and thats with stock LS1 heads that only flow 225cfm on average on 241 castings. And if you add higher flowing heads you'll still gain hp and tq over stock heads because you're increasing the efficiency. On my '99 SS M6 a local shop near me wanted to see what a stage 1 853 head with stock valves would add. So i had an SLP loundmouth CB, MTI lid, K&N filter, and 4.10s. The best the car ran was in the 12.7's with drag radials. So after the heads were install and a set of FLP headers and no other changes the car went a best of 12.08 on the stock LS1 intake, TB, and stock '99 f-body cam. So the higher flowing heads should definately add power and run faster.
10-14-2010, 06:41 PM
#60
^^I'm with you on that one. I want to hear that explanation to how you can have
more head then what a cam can provide...thats a new one. If the heads are done right
you will make more power over stock heads. If you need to throw a 230+ size cam on a small runner head that flows 300+cfm just to get better gains over a stock unported head with 265cfm then something isn't right. And if the heads are the only change, then the heads don't seem to be processing all the quoted flow. It's not a cam issue. 2003 ZO6's with bolt ons made 365rwhp or more. So adding a 222 duration cam and tuning would give you 425rwhp or more depending on other parts.
more head then what a cam can provide...thats a new one. If the heads are done right
you will make more power over stock heads. If you need to throw a 230+ size cam on a small runner head that flows 300+cfm just to get better gains over a stock unported head with 265cfm then something isn't right. And if the heads are the only change, then the heads don't seem to be processing all the quoted flow. It's not a cam issue. 2003 ZO6's with bolt ons made 365rwhp or more. So adding a 222 duration cam and tuning would give you 425rwhp or more depending on other parts.