I'm glad he likes it, no matter the outcome or the power numbers, we always strive to create a happy satisfied customer. Making big power we can brag on is just a bonus!
Who is this guy?
Arun,

Thank you for the compliments! The torque curve is bad *** for sure, as is the horsepower curve. I love how it never seems to "peak" like the other large cams tend to do and then drop very suddenly after peak. The V.2 just seems to carry forever..............

I saw that England Green cam and you're right it made no torque whatsoever, just a peak number and that's it.

You're right about what most people would think looking at that split @.050, but @.006" it's 289/297 which tells a different story. I use this lobe combination a lot and I really am liking the results from it. It's the same lobe combination used in our "Street Heat" Stage 1&2 cams for LS3 and Stage 2 for LS1.
It would work, but I wouldn't consider it optimal. It would make big numbers on low boost, but probably be peaky and end up bleeding too much boost off on higher boost levels making the blower work harder than it has to and not realizing the gains you could of gotten had it not had to work so hard. When you pulley a blower to make more boost, but you bleed it off out the exhaust valve, that extra power it takes from the engine to turn the blower also is lost. You have to really keep a centrifugal efficient to get every last ounce of power from one. In a street car this isn't as important because honestly, 600rwhp on a street tire is ridiculous enough....I'm just a perfectionist and like to get as much horsepower return for a customers money spent as I possibly can.
Let me know!!! I think you'd really be missing out if you didn't!
What choo talking bout Willis?
Mike,

Thank you for letting us POLLUTE your Trans Am!!! I love your car from the black paint, black windows and black wheels to the WICKED idle it has now. When I first started it up for you, and it set off the car alarm of the car sitting in front of it, and you started jumping up and down I knew you were sold!!! LOL

Should we get some martini glasses and have a party in the T/A this weekend? Whenever you want that rear end ordered and installed along with a good clutch and our master you let me know and we'll get you set up right. After we do that we can get you to the track and see what she'll do! Thanks for the kind words!!!

BTW any local NC guys, Mike hosts our local Triad F-body meets at his Pizzeria each month. Mike what are the dates?

Here is the graph overlays for anyone that is interested in before and after:
SAE

 

1st and 3rd Saturdays of every month and 5th if there is one.

Already have the adjustable master from you guys. Which makes a huge difference by the way.

Oh and I don't do Martinis. Sorry. But a shot or a nice cold 🍻beer will work!

 

No, you need to start saving up for THIS cam!!!

Sorry about the added distance, but I promise you we will make it VERY worth the added driving distance!!!
LOL I hate Martinis also, I'll bring the Patron then!!!

I'll try and make it to the one next Saturday right? Glad you like the master Mike!

 

sounds good, thats what im lookin for....Ill be calling u guys soon

 

We'll be waiting!

 

Ok , tried calling a few times , message says u guys have a new phone system , is it working ok? Left a message anyways

 

There is no denying that these are great numbers. Seems to be at the sacrifice of streetability though. Below 2K rpm would be cruise rpm on the highway, and I would think that will get frustrating real quick. I guess it remains to be seen.

I would think that with heads and an intake, the cam could be tweaked for better driveability w/o sacrificing a bunch of performance?

I have read about a lot of folks who have surge issues, and it seems to be rather hard to tune out. Although I believe with a lot of logging and seat time, it can be improved on. Takes a really savy tuner though.....and i'm not that guy!

Ron

 

It's the nature of the beast when running large cams , my buddy plans on stepping up to either 4.30-4.56 gears when he gets a 9 inch so that will help with a lot of the lower rpm surging and bucking

 

You can get rid alot of the surge by tuning the car in OL and running it richer-but there just comes a point it won't matter period.

But that's just the way a cam works-the more overlap you introduce the more power it will make, the more it will sacrifice in streetabilty.

I always get a kick out of people who say they want a cam-with that super choppy idle-but it's gotta drive just like stock-uhm-yeah no-that's not gonna happen.

 

That definitely isn't me. I knew what I was getting from jump street. So it doesn't bother me the light amount of surging or having to drive above 2k. I did have it at 1500 rpm today and it rode fine, but I it went under that it got rough. Like my buddy said it will take some time to figure out all the quirks.

 

sweet ride man....if Im riding my GTO around Greensboro and hear that car Ill just turn around and go the other way....

 

Still rockin a stock clutch , better jump on it while u can ,, lol

 

We're technically closed and not answering the phones. Shoot me a PM and I'll help you out as best as I can. If need be I can give you my cell phone number.
Ron,

That is your opinion and you're entitled to it. Mike knew what he wanted and this was it. Every one has different tastes, everyone has different wants. I am here to make those needs and wants a reality nothing more. I don't have a way to fix everything to be perfect, but we can sure try. As Mike said today, you can cruise with this cam at 1600-1800rpm all day long.

Did you see I put up a baseline graph that you asked for?
4.30's would be perfect, the main reason we went with the 3.90's is that Motive quit making their 7.5" 10 bolt gear sets in Italy where they used to make all of them. That is but for the 3.90 gear set which is still made in Italy. We've had **** luck with every other gear set that was a Motive gear set that wasn't a 3.90 or that wasn't made in Italy. A lot of the other ring and pinion companies have moved their manufacturing facilities elsewhere also so it's hard to find a good quality 10 bolt gear anymore. This is really the only gear set we will install in a 10 bolt due to durability issues.

We all know you're just polishing a turd with the 10 bolt anyways, but the 3.90 gear set for now makes the cam much more drivable.
Arun,

We normally take 2 full days just to tune a vehicle. First day we get the car we don't touch it. We let it sit and get as cold as it would be for the owner on a cold morning start. When we do get to it, we do the initial start-up tune and dial in the base running air flow tables and get it close to where it needs to be and then we put it on the dyno. We spend as much time as needed there till we're satisfied with the power and then do some open road VE tuning for the rest of the day. We then let it sit overnight to get cold again to simulate a cold start and tweak the running air flow tables until Jonathan and the car seem to be satisfied. We then repeat the open road VE tuning and warm start situations. We turn the car off, back on, off and back on again until there are no hang-ups returning to idle or while coasting down to a stop. We try to take as methodical as an approach as possible while not costing the customer an arm and a leg in time spent tuning a vehicle.

For the amount of effort put in, I believe our rates are extremely fair.

I too love to get the guy that wants the 20 degrees of overlap sound at idle, but it has to drive like a Z06 cam....I usually run far away from those situations and cower in a corner LOL!
Glad to hear it Mike. I know we were able to cruise nicely around 1600rpm like I told you when you picked the car up, but it is a big cam and you can't always get the best of both worlds. Like I said and I think you know, we sure as hell will try our best though!
Mike(the other mike lol) I think you got him edged out by a little bit, but watch out when he gets those heads ported and a better intake on there!

 

You've got me re-thinking keeping my current cam when I go to Trick Flows...

 

Mike your cam is perfect for your set-up. I wouldn't change it, and if I were going to mess with it, I would only change the lobe intensity and the lift. Events are picture perfect IMO for a heavy GTO with a 230cc intake runner which your new TFS will have also. The guys@Bullet know damn well what they're doing and I honestly wouldn't want to go in and change their cam when it works so well already. We can discuss some options if you wanted even more, but I think it's fine for now.

 

I'm assuming that's in reference to me, and I believe a bit of a disclaimer is needed.

My car made less torque BEFORE the cam than his did BEFORE the cam. My engine is an 02 LS6 and it made 360 RWHP and only 335 RWTQ. It made 420 RWHP and 350 RWTQ post cam.

I was expecting pre-cam in the 380 RWHP range and 360 RWTQ compared to similar LS6 dynos, but I just figued, what the heck, torque was a little low and went ahead and did the cam. Shame on me for not finding the reason FIRST.

I've since discovered that at least one of the cats was clogged, and also one of the primaries on the passenger header is pretty dented.

I don't think my car in the dyno as it sits is a fair representation of the EG cam. I'm going to try and re-dyno with the cats removed. Unfortunately I don't have the cash right now to drop $1500 on headers that I don't KNOW if I need, or at least have an idea of what kind of power/torque I'm losing.

Let's also realize that this cam has 1 7/8 LTs and not 1 3/4 like mine - that's worth at least a bit.

I'm kind of surprised that Martin would make such a blanket statement such as that, but it appears that everyone only remembers the numbers, and not the context.

Never did I say, "Hey look at my numbers!" I came and posted for information and advice, and the majority of the response was "that's a big cam for ya."

Someone even said the reason the torque was low before the cam was because the cam sizes are different from year to year in the LS6, yet my year was the higher factory rating than the comparison I showed, lol.

FWIW, Martin, if you're willing to ship me a set of 1 7/8 Longtubes and your cam for a C5, I'll do a direct comparison for ya - the EG with 1 7/8 and your cam with 1 7/8.

Also, driveability with my cam isn't near as bad as many would expect. I have slight cam surge below 1500, but I can cruise in 6th down to about there. I get better mileage at 80 tho, and that's above 2K.

 

All very good rational points. I will be honest I didn't read far into your set up and yes I only remember the numbers. My post was in no way a shot at you so I'm sorry and apologize if it was taken that way.

Hopefully you get another shot at it and can make the power you wanted. As far as the cam compare goes if the cams are close in duration and lsa there really wont be that much difference. The difference in lobe intensity would IMO be more of a difference maker itself than a small change in duration. There is no magic cam is what I'm saying, and the only way to improve upon a given cam and set up is by changing the events more than 2 to 3 degrees and or change the lobe intensity.

 

Hi Martin,

Correct, streetable has different meaning for everyone. Opinions vary. as I daily drive my car in the summer, that wouldn't cut it for me. The owner likes it, and that's good.

And yes, thanks for the baseline comparrison!

I think the point I was suggesting is that with better intake and heads, with a bit less cam, that car would still get near 480 at the wheels, maybe more, and be a whole lot more driveable. I went pretty conservative with mine, but it still exceeded my goals.

I appreciate your tuning methods. I can tell you that more than a few over on the Vette site get the 4 hour timing and fuel adjust for max power and are sent out the door with cars that are hard to drive. Your post is the first time I'v see reference to getting the BRAF calibrated from cold to hot! Then touching it up again after the dyno and street tuning are done. As I'm sure you know, auto trans takes even more effort there.

Even my little cam had some surge in closed loop (perfect in open loop) but I was able to tweal the proportional and integral a bit and solved it.

Ron

 

For a weekend warrior I actually like a little cam surge. Just your cars way of telling you to go faster.

 

Ron,

You're 100% right everyone will have a different idea of what is drivable, streetable and livable. If we were all the same this world would be too damn boring for me I know that much!

If I have a customer that comes to me that is concerned about drivability, but still wants to make big power I of course will suggest a cam with less overlap and a later opening intake valve event. I've also found that for a given amount of overlap, if you open the intake valve later you can achieve better drivability even though the total amount of overlap@.006", @.050" and @.200" never changed. Only the point in which the overlap period was started. I really like my 235/239 .621"/.624" 112+2 cam in situations like that, or my 234/240 .612"/.588" 112+3 cam.

Mike will even tell you that I tried to talk him out of the Polluter for something that would drive better, but that is not what he wanted! Like I said in my last post to you I am just here to serve my customers and make their wants and needs reality. That said, I think for a 239/244 112lsa cam that's able to be driven down to 1500-1600rpm is pretty damn good and shows how good of a tuner Jonathan is.

As far as the 4 hour tuning sessions are concerned you will never get that from our shop. We take a lot of pride in our tunes and getting them right for the customer. We've seen too many of those same situations where a customer goes to another shop to get his car tuned, spends 600 bucks and they spend 2-3 hours on it. When a customer calls and asks if he can get his car the same day he drops it off for a tune, I have to explain to them how wrong that method of tuning is and how much is left out when a tuner does that. I hate the tuners that say, "Well, there's no way we can do it all now and get it right so you'll have to bring it back for a re-tune." Of course that re-tune costs the customer even more money that isn't being put towards truly fixing the problem and tuning the vehicle correctly.
Yes sir! Speed up! Speed up!