casias

iTrader: (1)

[QUOTE=badformulaLS1;18880241

I'm sorry but someone who can't afford a $150 dollar purchase probably doesn't even own a car in the first place. Flawed logic.

At least someone understands.[/QUOTE]

HAHAHA! How did I miss this one?HAHA! That is great.

ProServ

I don't think anyone was claiming to be forced to buy the product. The question is if they do what they claim and if the science they claim is actually valid. This is LS1Tech and a discussion forum (and a sub-forum about Dynamometer Results and Comparisons). Isn't the point of these forums to discuss things?

Kevin97ss

The hose analogy is interesting, let’s see where it leads...shall we? There is no bashing about to take place just the facts of the experiment. So I wander out into the back yard and stare down at my coiled garden hose. Its standard issue, 50 ft long, gray with some black moldy spots, the brass threaded end has dark patina. I reach over and open the shut off valve with the hose unrestricted. The anticipation builds as the water makes its way towards the unrestricted brass fitting, the water exits, extends about six inches out and falls to the ground splashing my legs and slippers with mud. Humm? I close the shut off valve and attach a fire hose style spray nozzle in the closed position. Once again I opened the shut off valve and watched as the hose swelled, loosening its coil against the 100% restriction. Slightly cracking open the nozzle it produced a fine mist of atomized water similar to a fuel injector. Twist 1/4 turn more and BOOM! a 30 foot long pencil thin water stream that could knock a woodpecker out of a tree. Let’s take some more restriction away, it’s bound to get better! Unfortunately it did not, as the water stream became less restricted it lost power...but, there was an interesting side effect. The water meter was spinning faster, more water was actually flowing. Now, as it was 20, 50 even 100,000 years ago, water and electricity follow the same laws of flow. As pressure rises volume decreases and vice versa. This inverse nature can be seen in the relationship between voltage and amperage where voltage is pressure and amperage is volume.

casias

iTrader: (1)

Oh wait, I got one!

I have two toilets on the second floor, sorry, I am not going to describe them in detail.

The house is plumbed with 3/4 inch copper, and the toilets have identical supply lines. If I flush them both at the same time, one fills in 35 seconds, and the other fills in 41 seconds.

If I tear out the copper, and increase the size to 1 1/2 inch copper pipe, then attach the toilets in exactly the same way, will they fill faster?

You can't forget the spark plugs, represented here as toilet supply lines.

Brainstorm: Maybe you could put these wires with E3 plugs with proven performance, and gain double the horsepower!

Kevin97ss

So, in effect you increased amperage to your toilet(spark plug). The crapper sits in atmospheric pressure, the spark plug does not. Would you still want to increase volume or raise pressure?

casias

iTrader: (1)

I wouldn't worry about either, since the current GM ignition has no trouble igniting the air/fuel mixture with a decent set of plug wires.

Granatelli

Its seems like you can't win for loosing Not going to address the talk about bashing. Hard to understand the toilet talk. Sounds like a few have plumbing issues.

We have been selling these at a clip of 200 to 250 sets a month for going on 12 years or more. Lets call it 10 years and say its only 200 a month…24000 plus sets later we have never had a single dyno test disprove our results, yet have had 100's report back true bliss and pleasure in the product. We make them for just about every super successful racing sanctioning body and pro racing team out there and we still get a few guys that claim it does not work because they don’t know better. To say the factory parts are "good enough" is silly talk. Since when is good enough - ever good enough?

If these wires were an unproven product I would go through all the talk again but its proven and undisputed by a single test otherwise - GREAT NEWS for the 24,000 that have them.

Factually from day one we have always said if you have a Granatelli part that does not perform to your likely…call for a full refund. WE HAVE NEVER REFUNDED ANYONE FOR A SET OF LS SERIES WIRES…BECAUSE THEY SIMPLY DO WHAT WE SAY

DietCoke

iTrader: (18)

So somehow sales = science is correct? I mean, walmart sells some pretty dubious products with larger #s sold then that.

Kevin97ss

The previous iteration actually worked too, contrary to popular belief. Factory Delphi optispark & coil along with fresh Delphi wires lite off my lil ole LT1...perhaps that's why its slow?

casias

iTrader: (1)

Given your long-winded explanation about the garden hose, you probably believe that.

Kevin97ss

badformulaLS1

iTrader: (1)

Your results have never been disputed? Take 10 minutes to do a simple search... Check out this forum, the C7 forum, Camaro5, ect. There isn't much, but the independent results that can be found show minuscule gains or no gains. No where near what you claim.

This is in addition to the fact that there is so little independent dyno testing in the first place... Doesn't make a lot of sense. 10 or more whp for under $200 bucks is great value for the money. If you've been selling them for so many years and they actually did something, by now the mod should be as common place as a cold air intake or exhaust..

And since you apparently can't scientifically back up the way the wires gain power, you instead decided to once again beat around the bush and not directly answer questions but instead of recyling the same metaphorical explanation you brought up sales for some reason... Which as already stated above, doesn't prove the wires work.

Zmg00camaross

iTrader: (11)

Wires don't work like magic, wires look and heard are quality made. That's the verdict!

KW Baraka

iTrader: (7)

LOL.......I'm gonna chime in too; simply because I don't wanna be left out.


I look at it like this: No matter how good anyone here can show/prove the current GM ignition system to be, IT DOES NOT fully burn all fuel that's delivered to the combustion chamber. It just plain doesn't.....improvements in this area can ALWAYS be made.....and this would be a good thing when/if it occurs .

So......lets play this little game for a minute:

Lets take the best ignition coils ever made (let's say, OEM GM coils), you know.....that set that transmits an ungodly amount of spark energy. Then give us a set of spark plugs (again, whatever GM uses) that has the capability to provide a full and controlled discharge of all the energy that the coils put out.

THEN.....give us a set of wires that restricts x% of the energy that the coils put out (for the sake of consistency, lets say OEM GM wires).......so that not all of the coils' output reaches the spark plugs.

Would you be satisfied with such a wire? Yes? No? I think most of us would say 'No'.....


OK.....it seems to me that Granatelli wants us to believe that their wires have 0 (or almost 0) energy restriction, and along with this, the implication that theirs have less restriction than the competition's (and GM's) wires. And the result of less energy restriction is a stronger/fuller spark at the plugs (commensurate to the capabilities of the coils and the spark plugs).

The only question(s) I see that requires answers are:

1. Does a less restrictive wire result in a fuller spark and;
2. Does this 'fuller spark' result in a more complete fuel burn?

If the answers to #'s 1 and 2 are 'Yes', then:

3. Does this result in more power production and better fuel economy?


MOST of us would probably agree that the answers to 1 and 2 are 'Yes'. And intuitively, the answer to #3 would also be 'Yes'.

What would be ideal, is if Granatelli could show us how #3 is 'Yes'.




So......Granatelli, show us that a fuller fuel burn in the combustion chambers results from using your wires, AND that this fuller burn results in more power and better fuel economy.

You do this, and it ends ALL arguments. And if you can't do this, then just say that you got a really nice replacement wire set......and leave it at that.

Thanks to all, for playing along.

KW

flintwrench69

iTrader: (11)

I know this is just about their wires but tell me in what application would you expect to gain 8-25 hp from just adding one of their MAF sensors? Someone tell me how just a MAF increases hp?

ProServ

A little off the original topic but this one is a little easier to answer and hopefully less contentious.

A MAF change can usually gain power in two ways:

1. If it provides a reduced inlet restriction improving cylinder efficiency and reducing pumping losses. A gain in power from a MAF change that reduces inlet restriction should also show a measurable difference in manifold air pressure or at least pressure drop across the MAF itself.
2. If it changes the airflow to signal output which then changes the air fuel ratio. In most cases this gain is caused by a leaner air fuel mixture.

The problems with the second type of gain are:

• You could likely achieve the same gain by reprogramming the ECM/PCM.
• If you are already at the correct air fuel ratio it could cause the engine to run lean (or rich, but usually lean - I'll explain later) resulting in power loss, increased exhaust temperatures, increased knock sensitivity, and/or engine failure.
• The gain can be temporary if it changes the measured vs actual airflow across the entire operating range (it usually does). This is because people usually do a test like this on a chassis dyno or maybe even at the track and don't let the engine go into closed loop and learn the fuel trim values (in one or all of the fuel trim load cells). So at first the MAF change leans out the engine and causes a power gain but then you drive the vehicle and the ECM/PCM sees that the O2 sensor readings indicate a lean mixture and adds the fuel back in the form of long term fuel trims (LTFT) so now you are back at the air fuel ratio and power you were at before (but you aren't at the track or chassis dyno anymore so you might not know it).

Above I noted a new MAF usually results in a leaner air fuel ratio. This is because people usually put a bigger MAF, or a modified stock MAF or the same MAF in a bigger tube. All of these usually result in the sensor element under-estimating the airflow value unless you have the new sensor calibration curve to go with the new sensor and put that into your ECM/PCM's look-up table for MAF. This is because the MAF sensor is providing an output signal based on the airflow passing over the sensor element(s) in the sensor assembly itself and then that is basically used to extrapolate the airflow for the entire tube. If you increase the cross section of the tube (larger tube, remove fins/screens etc) then for the same amount of air passing over the sensor element you have more air flowing past the entire assembly so the sensor indicates less air than is actually entering the engine so less fuel is delivered - ie leaner.

Jimbo1367

Proserv,
very informative and well written

z-maro

iTrader: (18)

The bold part further leads me to believe that the timing would effectively be changed with the addition of these wires. Your saying that the spark happens sooner?

Zmg00camaross

iTrader: (11)

He would say te spark gets there on time there for a complete burn yada yada.

ProServ

The change in resistance does NOT change the ignition timing. The flow in a pipe analogy is inaccurate for the electricity firing the spark plug and is likely the cause of this misconception.