Is 575whp possible n/a?
Is 575whp possible n/a? Here are the parameters:
naturally aspirated
346 stock bottom end (rod bolts ok)
hydraulic cam only
plastic production intake only
any heads
Car would be street worthy not necessarily a DD.
dynojet numbers
pump e85
any supporting bolt-ons
I had this discussion on other forums.
Most people initially said no "no way" then some changed their minds after a lengthy discussion. Some remained still "on the fence".
I say YES based on my experience over the past 10 years with H/C/I cars and in particular my latest setup.
My current n/a 346 setup makes well over 500whp with a heavy clutch, thru 4.10 gears, with a fast 90/90, and not fully tuned.
I understand that all dynojets don't read the same so the setup would have to produce similar numbers on different dynos to rule out dyno manipulation.
I believe one big reason you don't see it happen is because many experienced racers/builders/ designers don't care about the peak dyno numbers when building them for the tracks.
What's your take on it?
naturally aspirated
346 stock bottom end (rod bolts ok)
hydraulic cam only
plastic production intake only
any heads
Car would be street worthy not necessarily a DD.
dynojet numbers
pump e85
any supporting bolt-ons
I had this discussion on other forums.
Most people initially said no "no way" then some changed their minds after a lengthy discussion. Some remained still "on the fence".
I say YES based on my experience over the past 10 years with H/C/I cars and in particular my latest setup.
My current n/a 346 setup makes well over 500whp with a heavy clutch, thru 4.10 gears, with a fast 90/90, and not fully tuned.
I understand that all dynojets don't read the same so the setup would have to produce similar numbers on different dynos to rule out dyno manipulation.
I believe one big reason you don't see it happen is because many experienced racers/builders/ designers don't care about the peak dyno numbers when building them for the tracks.
What's your take on it?
That's another place people should be looking for power and that is not only intake runner length but also collector length.
My car made 470 on a conservative Mustang dyno, early in the tuning process, which typically reads 12-13% lower than the local dynojet. I posted a dyno graph in the other thread and gave some insight on shift points for those who are into drag racing.
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Staging Lane
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To give you an idea, my LQ9 408, fully forged, 13.5:1 Comp, custom can, PRC LS3 heads, Holley hi ram LS3 and pump 98 (Australia so like US pump 93) made 550rwhp.
To get that from a stock bottom end, even with big heads and whatever else is a BIG ask at the wheels...
To get that from a stock bottom end, even with big heads and whatever else is a BIG ask at the wheels...
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Verdad Gallardo The 388ci motor we built 5 years ago made around 700whp with an ITB.
And the 396 we built a few years back is capable of 1000+ fwhp.
The big challenge here is to do it with the plastic manifold and SBE 346ci. The optimized ITB I have in my garage is good for about 20hp and ~ .1 in ET over the fast on the 346 without perfect cylinder tuning.
But since I'm only 50whp away from the 575whp# it's clear to me that it can be done.
Now ~520whp through 4.10's
add
ported fast 102/102
20lb. clutch
fine EFI tuning
3.42 gears
vacuum pump
That above to me looks like 40+whp right there.
I'm not saying I would switch to the stock gear ratio just to achieve the dyno number but I mention this because it helps people understand that the target numbers are more feasible.
Stock gear, CF driveshaft, uber light wheel and tire combo, EWP, EPS pump, no AC...go all out on the detail$...slight chance maybe, given your willingness to compromise everything to hit a number. I'd like to see this dyno sheet showing 525 at the tire now and the other specs on this engine. A flat % loss is only a guideline, it's not a linear thing...never is, so 470 at the tire may not actually be what you're calculating. I'm not saying it's not possible but it's a TALLLLL order and the stars will have to align for you...and it may only happen once.
You are looking for ~680crank horsepower from 346ci. It is doable with high flowing big runner heads and single plane intake, solid roller cam, 14-1 compression, race gas (e85 might work but race gas could make more power), spot on tune, etc. Would not be streetable at all. The LSX is a great platform but still has limitations to its abilities to produce ~2hp per ci.
No reason to believe that one engine would lose 60hp through the drivetrain and another would lose 100hp through the SAME drivetrain just because it's a more powerful engine.
But, alas.....THAT is a discussion for another thread.
KW
Here are the parameters:
naturally aspirated
346 stock bottom end (rod bolts ok)
hydraulic cam only
plastic production intake only
any heads
Car would be street worthy not necessarily a DD.
dynojet numbers
pump e85
any supporting bolt-ons
I had this discussion on other forums.
Most people initially said no "no way" then some changed their minds after a lengthy discussion. Some remained still "on the fence".
I say YES based on my experience over the past 10 years with H/C/I cars and in particular my latest setup.
My current n/a 346 setup makes well over 500whp with a heavy clutch, thru 4.10 gears, with a fast 90/90, and not fully tuned.
I understand that all dynojets don't read the same so the setup would have to produce similar numbers on different dynos to rule out dyno manipulation.
I believe one big reason you don't see it happen is because many experienced racers/builders/ designers don't care about the peak dyno numbers when building them for the tracks.
What's your take on it?
naturally aspirated
346 stock bottom end (rod bolts ok)
hydraulic cam only
plastic production intake only
any heads
Car would be street worthy not necessarily a DD.
dynojet numbers
pump e85
any supporting bolt-ons
I had this discussion on other forums.
Most people initially said no "no way" then some changed their minds after a lengthy discussion. Some remained still "on the fence".
I say YES based on my experience over the past 10 years with H/C/I cars and in particular my latest setup.
My current n/a 346 setup makes well over 500whp with a heavy clutch, thru 4.10 gears, with a fast 90/90, and not fully tuned.
I understand that all dynojets don't read the same so the setup would have to produce similar numbers on different dynos to rule out dyno manipulation.
I believe one big reason you don't see it happen is because many experienced racers/builders/ designers don't care about the peak dyno numbers when building them for the tracks.
What's your take on it?
Morgan Motorsports also...for sure had their "500 Aggressor H/C package". 500 RWHP stock cubes.
.
Don't forget "Tom the Roofer" he was also making over 500 RWHP back around 2001-2002. I spoke to him many times. 10 second N/A stock cubes.
EDIT.....he might have had a 416 or 421.....actually now that I think about it.
.
EDIT.....he might have had a 416 or 421.....actually now that I think about it.
.
And don't forget I put my street car setup in the 9's with a SBE 346 about 8 years ago.
That setup made well over 500rwhp and was backed up with mph.
Stock gear, CF driveshaft, uber light wheel and tire combo, EWP, EPS pump, no AC...go all out on the detail$...slight chance maybe, given your willingness to compromise everything to hit a number. I'd like to see this dyno sheet showing 525 at the tire now and the other specs on this engine. A flat % loss is only a guideline, it's not a linear thing...never is, so 470 at the tire may not actually be what you're calculating. I'm not saying it's not possible but it's a TALLLLL order and the stars will have to align for you...and it may only happen once.
Plus I'm only a set of heads and plastic manifold away from that number which will actually make my current setup drive even better.
I've had my old heads/cam setup on the local dynojet and this Mustang dyno in the same day and just looked up the numbers 432Mustang to 486dynojet. We've also confirmed these results with hundreds of other similar vehicles over the years.
And I'm not saying it's common place but possible based on my experiences and my current setup. I've been heavily into the all motor h/c scene for years and have a good handle on the building one for performance.
Last edited by vetteboy2k; Mar 11, 2016 at 11:11 AM.
You are looking for ~680crank horsepower from 346ci. It is doable with high flowing big runner heads and single plane intake, solid roller cam, 14-1 compression, race gas (e85 might work but race gas could make more power), spot on tune, etc. Would not be streetable at all. The LSX is a great platform but still has limitations to its abilities to produce ~2hp per ci.
I've always wondered why people think that drivetrain losses are linear. That concept makes no sense at all.
No reason to believe that one engine would lose 60hp through the drivetrain and another would lose 100hp through the SAME drivetrain just because it's a more powerful engine.
But, alas.....THAT is a discussion for another thread.
KW
No reason to believe that one engine would lose 60hp through the drivetrain and another would lose 100hp through the SAME drivetrain just because it's a more powerful engine.
But, alas.....THAT is a discussion for another thread.
KW
What did the car run in the quarter? Dyno numbers can be manipulated but track times cannot.