This is a repost from a thread I posted in another section; I guess it really wasn't in the right area, and wasn't getting much traction so I decided to try here. It's not a "dyno" question, per se, but certainly a power question

OK...I'm in the point of my build where I have to make decisions about drive train. Frankly, paint and body cost way more than I'd intended, so am looking at choices for motor and or trans. I'd intended all along to go gen1 sbc or mark IV, but...a bit wary of the weight of the mark iv, and getting the power levels I want out of a sbc will require aftermarket heads for sure, and block to be safe. So, starting thinking LS because the factory block and head castings will support the power I'm looking for NA. As a yardstick, I'm looking to put a 3,600 lb car with driver to about a 115-120 MPH in the quarter. I'm using MPH rather than ET, because the car won't be a dedicated drag chassis, so ET's become pointless to measure HP at that point. So call it 470 hp at the crank, or about 420 to the wheel.

I've always admired the LS (have had a few), but didn't really consider it a choice for this project (by virtue of how they look and sound, as silly as that seems) until a buddy of mine offered up an L33 core at a good price. Can a 5.3 motor make this sort of power and still get out of its own way below 3500rpm? Will it pull an overdrive manuaI without a torque converter to let it slip a bit? know it can make the number, but will it pull decently down low? I would like to use stock castings, but I'm willing to have them worked on. Would I be well served by taking the bore out enough to use 5.7 pistons? I ask that because 470 hp puts specific output of a 326 ci motor at over 1.4hp per CI. The 20 cubic inches Id gain from boring it (assuming the block checks out) would help with that a bit.

The attraction of the LS to me is superior factory castings and an available aluminum block. So the L33 might just do the trick. I know an LQ4/9 would make the number, but if there are aluminum blocks are available, Id rather go that way (I know you can make up the weight in a straight line by more power, but you will always be stopping and turning with an extra 100 lbs over the front wheels). I will also have to budget some money to tweak the motor cosmetically (despite all their virtue, they are NOT a good looking motor in stock form!)

Would I be better served to just get an LS3 (especially since I could get a TR6060 with it)? It's more money, and in one chunk, but the power goal should be doable with a cam swap, correct?

Soooo...after all this rambling, it boils down to this: Can I get there with the L33's stock block and (worked) heads and how best to approach it? Will it be any good across the RPM range if I do? Or will I be money ahead if I just start with an LS3?

If you've made it thru all this, thanks for your patience. I appreciate any advice you might have

 

Rather than boring a 5.3, you would be better getting a 6.0 engine if 470FWHP is what you are after. Then you will have a larger bore and the same stroke.

 

For sure, it would make the number easier. LS2 blocks are about as expensive as an LS3, so would likely go that route. I know I could do an iron block for a good bet less, but would probably rather an aluminum 5.3 vs an iron 6.0. Lots to be said about taking 100 or so lbs off of your front wheels.

 

...and in more direct reply to the very good point you made, my current though is to keep the 5.3 at stock bore and stroke if I decide to go that way. Also, 470 is more or less what I figure I will need at the crank...so maybe 420 or so at the rear wheels.

 

To address your other concern, getting 470FWHP AND having enough low end power might be an issue. The cam needed for such an engine would not be very forgiving when using an automatic with O/D.

 

Fair enough. Though, I'm looking for more like 420 and at the rear, not front wheels (470 hp is my best guess for what I'd need at the crank to get the results I was hoping for). It's still looking at something better than 1.4 HP per CI, which is a fair bit. I might have confused the matter when I said my goals were to run 115-120 trap in the quarter, it's not a race car, so no plans for an automatic. That said, a manual would actually be worse as far as trying to pull an OD with a high strung engine.

I'm considering FI, Though it quickly gets to the sort of power that is more bragging rights and less usable without drag radials at the least. I've done that to several cars...got them to the point where they were no longer a lot of fun to drive on the street. A centrifugal is attractive, since they dont hit the tires real hard. A turbo could probably be done more cheaply, and could probably run a smaller unit with good response. Do they sound any better if you split the exhaust after the down pipe? It's subjective, I know.

The L33 was just so attractive because it was aluminum, readily available, and a good price. So, it looks like seeing how an LS2 or LS3 will stack up, money wise...though I'm thinking they will be expensive enough that GEN 1 aftermarket block and heads will be a fair comparison.

I hope I don't sound like I'm being argumentative. Im pretty dialed in on GEN 1 and Mark IV stuff, but am trying to sound out people that know alot more about GEN 3 and 4 stuff to form a plan of action. I appreciate the input very much.

 

You will notice I use the term "FWHP" FlyWheel HorsePower. You mentioned 470 at the crank, which IS FWHP

 

Ah. Got it. I truly had never seen that acronym used that way. Most would say Brake Horse Power or BHP. At any rate, thanks for the input. You seem terse, so I apologize if I’ve irritated you somehow

 

No, I was in a hurry, but trying to be clear at the same time. No sweat man. I apologize if it looked that way.

 

You need more cubic inches for this than a 5.3 imo. 6.0L with 243 and a TSP 228r should put you there on the cheap or LS3 with a tooley cam ( call and ask ) will cake walk that at a much higher costs of course

 

I was beginning to think the same thing. As great as that motor is, the specific out put would be really high at the power levels Im after. I guess I was just hopeful since I could acquire it pretty cheaply. I might see what's available as to used LS3 with TR6060. Since I need a trans as well, the best bargain might be to get them together. Making that trans work does increase the complexity a fair bit, though. LS2s and t56s aren't much of a savings on the used market. The truck motors only come with autos, and I've zero interest in that.

I guess I'm really gonna have to see where things are, budget wise, once the car is painted. I have way more into the body and paint than I ever really intended. It's been blocked and is ready to go- just making some decisions on color. Ironic for a guy that has always done the mechanicals first. But when I went to do wiring, It needed floors. When I went to do floors it needed inner rockers. Then outer rockers. Then quarters. So now basically every panel on the body had to have rust repair. Well, can't leave it in bare metal forever, so get it blasted and primed. Well, once it's that far, and the car is blown apart, might as well put it in color....and so it goes.

That said, the real attraction to me of doing a gen III or IV over a GEN 1 are the better factory head castings, and the available aluminum block. Going to an iron block more or less takes half the motivation away (for me, and for this project, at least).

I have time to think about it. I'm working over seas until Dec, and even then, the car is just a shell. It needs EVERYthing. I can do a lot of putzing around as I figure out the drivetrain. I'd resisted the temptation of the LS motor thus far, but figure I will make an informed decision, either way. Thanks to all for contributing to that.

 

The L33 is a great motor, and tons of fun. Coupled with a 4L60 you can put together a low dollar super fun package that wlll not disappoint and look exactly like an LS2 to even a highly trained eye... the L33/243 head with ebay long tubes, a summit truck cam and LS3 blue springs using the gen 4 truck intake ( 4 bolt tb ) or the LS6 car intake with a decent stall based on the TBSS core ( FTI are solid ) you can have a budget friendly 12 second ride at your weight. To take it to 11's is a whole other level of cost and will require cubes and you can do the exact same budget build with an iron 6.0L its a hundred lbs of extra weight and will hit the performance level you want. LS3 head and LS3 intake with a tooley cam and go. Paint the engine with cast aluminum spray paint, its convincing....

GenIV stuff is pricey and tricky. If your going t56 buy new, its worth it at this point imo as so many t56 cores are thrashed up

 

Good point on the T56; Would be miles ahead just buying a new T56 magnum. The TR6060 is great, but would have over a grand just getting the shifter out of the trunk and installing a slip yoke. It's gotta be a manual for me. Just a quirk of mine. Just never have driven an auto that I really wanted to own if it wasn't a drag car. Others see it differently. By giving a trap speed as my power goal, I might have given that impression, but I just used that because dyno numbers tend to get played with. Seen way too many cars with "500whp dyno sheets" do under 110 in the quarter lol.

For sure you can make up the weight penalty by extra power in a straight line, but that 100 lbs will never go away from a stopping/turning perspective. Not a deal breaker, but something I keep in mind; it was never really an option for me running GEN 1 or Mark IV stuff (aluminum blocks in that architecture costs cubic $$$)

You do have me thinking about an iron 6L, though. If nothing else, as a motor to get the car going. Perhaps spend the money on the heads, and go as cheaply as I can with the short block, with the idea that I will change it out when the financial dust clears from the rest of the build. Or put a cam in the L33 and beat it like a rented mule. Thanks for opening up that line of thought!

As for intakes, any experience with the 4150 style kits like the pro flo 4, etc? It's SFI, so not as crude as the throttle body stuff. And it fits the vibe of the car better. I suppose the shorter runners might lose some torque down low, though.

Again, thanks for all the input. I lack any direct experience building these motors, and really appreciate the time to answer some of my inane questions.

 

Bold above is precisely what I am suggesting. By the sounds of it you have taken on a major project and everyone runs into the same brick wall at the end; funds. Everyone.

So my approach now is always to get the platform suitable and another engine swap later is very easy, and fun too, it keeps the dream alive. PLUS you can rip around enjoying it in the meantime. If you go low buck on motor, put the funds into a brand new trans and LS7 clutch for starters then your all set later for as much power as you like. Once the platform is all set up an engine swap is a weekends work

 

This is well along in the metal work journey

off to the blaster

guide coat on the paint break just to get me motivated

about done blocking
This is gonna sound stupid, but I really hadn't considered that approach until your remarks got me thinking that way. I have been so stuck on the "do it once, do it right" mantra that I never really considered that approach makes a lot more sense for metal work and paint and body than it does for the motor.

This is the "dry" project I bought a few years ago. It actually had fairly decent looking paint. The good news is that while it needs everything mechanical, I have all of the trim and expensive, hard to find parts for it.

Again, thanks for helping me with the thought process.

 

Great project, glad to help. Bump this thread down the way if you want more info Ive swapped a ton of LS stuff

 

Not sure L33 block can be bored out like the LH6 and LC9 gen4 blocks for 5.7 pistons, you might want to research that.

 

Yeah, Ive had different reviews. I guess the only way to be sure is to have the block sonic checked. And even then, it might be more expense than it's worth. I'm working overseas so have some time to ponder the whole thing. And, for that matter, there is plenty to be done on the car that doesnt involve the drive train at this point! lol

I guess I'm deciding on the whole "ethos" of the build at this point. I had originally been thinking GEN 1 or MARK IV. Dismissed the MARK IV as being more weight over the front than I wanted to deal with. The GEN 1, when you start to approach or exceed 500 hp, really starts to want an aftermarket block. So I'm considering GEN III or IV (likely III, because things get a bit more complex with IV). And the aluminum blocks become really attractive, too.

I can do an all new components long block GEN 1 that is 400 ci and just over 500 hp for a bit over $5K. I could likely better the HP for less money with a 6L, but with a used long block that might be a bit of a crap shoot. Although, the LS has superior design, and a much higher ceiling if I ever decide too much isn't enough

All that said, my current thinking (I got WAY too much time to think here) is buy a junk yard 6L, spend as little on the long block as possible, and spend money on headers, cooling, and engine management. Or I could do the same with the L33 that is available. Then upgrade when the financial pain of a bare metal respray has receded. Rather than trying to by my "forever motor" (if there is such a thing), I could spend the money on other parts of the drive train, suspension, and rolling stock-none of which is cheap.

 

L33 and 6#'s of boost will get you there no problem.. then when your bored, turn it up to 15#.......then when your bored turn it up to 20#

 

No doubt boost will surpass all other approaches in terms of power and growth potential. Trouble with boost is its VERY challenging if not impossible to get one singing that beautiful song and stay together for very long. A turn key drive every day boosted car that will outperform a stroked 6.2L build as reliably AND fast in all conditions is a pipe dream. If you want a car to talk about and take to the track and run a number that you can hardly drive? Boost it. If you want a cheap go fast we discussed. If you want to do the "forever motor" my suggestion which is also in my plans is a big cubic inch 6.2L naturally aspirated. As it is now my NA 6.2L roasts almost everything that ever gets near me and Im not even near 500 whp but I can mash every gear, without traction issues all day every day without concern. Traps 120mph

Next motor 130+

On the street the difference in winning between a 130mph car and a 180 mph car is all in the dig. Whoever gets out first will stay out first almost always, on the street at least. Thats 30+ years of testing in Mexico talking