You have a nice overall setup but those Dart heads are worth 40 rwhp from an LS1 head running at 11.2:1 compression. Z06's (LS6 heads) see a 40 rwhp gain running AFR 205's out of the box at 66 cc's with smaller cams than you are running. This head is basically a step up from the budget PRC LS6 heads that made 35 rwhp upgrading from an LS1, with a cam about your size. So yes you left horsepower on the table by saving $600, that was your choice, but these are not in the same league as AFR's. Once there is a good port job with a small runner done on the 205's I think they will be competetive, but at that point the price would have gone up as well. Right now the only one AFR needs to fear is ETP.

 

dam!! LS blocks
was bout time DART!!
ive been waiting for a dart block since 97'
make similiar to ur sbc with big bore capabilities
4.125+++
cast iron please, i dont care bout the weight i already have a cast iron block with a tubular k-member
cast iron im sure will run significantly lower priced
with all the lsx stuff thats been out now
also ive got my 225 darts on order

sorry bout hijacking the thread

also dont forget the dart single plane hi-rise intake race manifolds for
ls1/ls6 ls7/ls2 l92 carb 4150 square bore
sorry just freekin out bout the possibility of these products which i think
are long overdue

 

When I asked Allan Futral what heads they suggested for me besides a $3000 ported set of Meaux LS6 heads, he laughed and said "If you want to go fast, get the new Dart 225s" I said "What about the AFR stuff?" He said "If you want to go fast, get the Dart 225s"

That about sums it up.

I'm sure you build 605rwhp 434ci LS1 strokers, 950rwhp 408ci LS1 turbo motors, set LS1 records and stuff like that in your spare time, so maybe I'll just take your advice next time....hell, I'll even ship you my car.

Do we have a smiley for reading incomprehension or beating a dead horse?

 

It just shows that you should always get a second opinion or maybe think for yourself and do you your own research. I can spout out Tuner's credentials all day long that wouldn't recommend as cast Dart heads over AFR's any day of the week.

 

Caspar ran an AFR casting, 'nuff said.

im just curious if your car is gonna be the poster child to sell these heads, kinda like whats his face did with those ETP 215 ~470rwhp on a mustang dyno that turned out to be bullshit.

AFR has already proven itself in the game. not only with Tony's test mule on the dyno and the track but by regular joes and various shop cars from 346's to 427's. is AFR the ******* messiah of heads; no, but consistancy, quality, service, technical expertice, and a proven track record are well worth the higher entry fee IMO.

i'll reserve my judgement on the Dart, ETP, Trickflow when they are readily available in the market and one can accurately assess them rather then relying one or two setups in hopes that one can duplicate those numbers.

and Kraest, when are you gonna hit up the track. some ~124 traps speed should be obtainable with that power..

 

Anyone up for an overlay of my previous engine combo...the 205 headed stock short 346 (with a 224 puss cam) that put down 470+/430+ on five different dyno's (481/441 being the best #'s)

Certainly the same driveline and similar set-ups with a few differences here and there....

My buddy Dennis put down 490/440 on Andy's (A&A) dyno which is known to be stingy with a similar combo to mine but with a cam similar to yours (mid 230's @ .050).

The TQ tells the story IMO....the power #'s are helped out by the big cam and big tube headers. I think an AFR 205 would have helped you achieve stronger numbers....especially in the TQ department. The Dart castings are nice, represent strong value, and have lots of potential, BUT I think its almost impossible to have a fully optimized piece in "as cast" trim. Not to mention I personally subscribe to the smaller port/high airspeed approach to making power with these LS1's....especially when most of the current intakes knock off the bigger airflow some of the better flowing larger LS heads are capable of on a flowbench (leaving you in the "real world" with a larger port that only accomplishes a reduction in airspeed AND volumetric efficiency).

Just my .02 here....

Tony M.

PS...I try to steer clear of threads not directly involving AFR, but at some point in this thread it became clear we were involved....LOL

 

Nice numbers, but I have to agree with some of the guys here. You can't compare your Dart "as cast" to a complete refined set of AFR's. Like jrp said, this setup has been PROVEN time and time again on different cars. When these same achievements can be said by Dart, ET, whoever, then its time for a debate.

 

Nope. I'm just a common Joe who's exstatic about the results of unported heads.

Probably not again until the weather cools off again..... The car isn't built for dragracing, anyway.. it was just built to be a fun street car.... I know that NPR is having a Vette - Viper shootout next Sunday... Maybe I'll have to attend that.

 

Actually, I have to completely disagree with you here. The 1-7/8" primaries are killing my torque numbers on a 346. The stepped LG Motorsports headers regularly make more torque than the Kooks 1-7/8 in every instance on stock cubes. I was 20 rwtq low when I had stock heads and I'm low on torque again. I'm saving these headers for when my stock bottom end explodes and I need to build a 402 or 408

Mike

 

I completely agree here, but I knew that port velocity was going to be an issue when I bought these heads. 205s would have made better low-mid power, but I'm thinking about the future... (408?)

Mike

 

I'm aware of that. Who in their right mind would compare box-stock heads to ported heads?

I was actually considering getting my heads done by Larry Meaux, but decided against it at this point because I wanted to see what kind of numbers they made with no additional porting.

 

No offense at all:

I'd like to see another Common Joe's graph of heads with no additional porting or cleaning up. (besides milling for compression)

Everyone knows that the manufacturer always has a magic set that they stick on their and their buddies car

Mike

 

What a total waste of a thread.

Come on *******, grow up.
I am tired of reading everyone's oponion on here that thinks they know everything.
If anyone knew everything they wouldn't waste their time on this site as there would be nothing to learn.

First off congs on your numbers.
Next, why are we compairing these heads to AFR's?
The AFR's are almost 1000 dollars difference. I would hope the AFR's would out perform the Darts. The AFR's are consistant, prooven, and we all know these heads were the start of Trick flow, Dart, ETP etc.
The AFR are also fully ported, and come setup a little better with a dual spring. Were also talking about a 225 to a 205???????
Compair numbers once more people have numbers to compair.
It is pointless to say head A kicks head B's *** without having results to proove it.

Simple fact it the thread starter choose to listen to a well respected company.
He is now happy with the power his car makes and wanted to share his combo with us. Everyone and their mother are asking for Dart results and once we get them the thread blows up like complete bullshit.

 

The reason is the Thread starter was running his mouth how he saved money and these heads were a direct competetor to AFR and just as good bla bla bla. Seeing that it is his thread you have no business telling him what he can or can't say and if your tired of hearing opinions move on and shut the f up.

 

Here is how a thread goes sour:

Post #6 Kraest quotes: Stock short block, 78,000miles, stock MAF, 30lb ford motorsports injectors, stock rockers, no dyno tricks. Meaux racing flowed the afr 205cc heads, the dart 225cc heads and found the afr flowed 280s and the dart in the low 300s. Not bad bad for saving quite a few hundred dollars.

Post# 53 4mula quotes: i would be worried if i was you guys. (referring to AFR)

Post # 55 Ksett quotes: AFR has nothing to worry about. In reality that ported FAST 90/90 setup is worth 20rwhp and the heads are worth 40 rwhp gain over an LS1 head using 11.2:1 compression, with a large cam. Even though it can't compete with AFR I think this head is a good alternative to the lowend budget heads for just a little extra.

Post # 56 Kraest quotes: It can't compete with AFR? Wow.
Someone's misinformed.

Here's Patrick G's setup:
472 rwhp/420 rwtq SAE
M6, AFR 205s, TR 233/235 .644/.598 112LSA TRak cam, Mamo ported FAST 90mm intake, NW 90mm TB, EFI Live MAF-less tuning, Kooks 1 3/4" headers w/catted y-pipe, Spec 3 clutch, Ram FW, SLP Dual/Dual catback

With the extra drivetrain loss due to an IRS setup and an engine that has 78000 miles on it along with using a stock MAF and no speed-density tune, I'd say that they are a big competitor.

Post # 57 Ksett quotes: I don't think so. You are comparing two different complete packages, the only real way to tell is to swap heads on one of the 2 setups and compare graphs. I think you will see that the AFR's will make more under the curve and on the top end.

Post # 58 Patrick G quotes: Wow, I got compared with this setup? I'm flattered. I'm just pleased that I've been able to make the numbers through cats and a single 3" exhaust. Maybe I need to upgrade my exhaust....on the other hand....nah!

Post # 59 Kraest quotes: THIS setup? You're going to have to check yourself, bud. This setup was a "low-dollar" setup through a Borla Exhaust, STOCK MAF, full belts, STOCK rockers, 30# injectors, STOCK fuel pump, all through a Vette drivetrain, which eats quite a few more % than a solid-axle. This setup would easily make 500rwhp in your car with your additional mods in your "race setup": EFI-Live SD tuning, A short accessory belt, Electric water pump, open exhaust, not to mention the mega-aggessive LSK lobes you're using on that cam. I DO believe you made 455 rwhp without the EFI live tuning, full belts, and no electric waterpump on your "street" setup.

If ANYTHING, I should be honored to be compared with YOUR AFR setup.

Give credit where credit is due. Don't be pissed at Dart for producing an awesome head! Maybe you can fool the AFR crowd into thinking your car wasn't an ALL-OUT build, but you can't fool me EFI LIVE? Give me a break

Cheers.

Mike


As everyone can see, the mention of AFR in post #6 by Kraest brought AFR into the thread in a negative way. From that point it went downhill.

 

That is where your wrong.
If you make a thread and say your stock camaro makes 400 RWHP I have every right to correct him and tell him he is a tard.
I will say however I think I mixed up your name and his as your screen names are similar and I probally just glanced.

 

Thanks Pat. Like I said above I mixed up the screen names.
I still think this is a total BS thread.
I also still feel the thread started was just happy with his results but taking a shot at any other head company was wrong.
Dont just throw oponions, if you think these are better the AFR's or any other head then swap heads, retune, redyno on the same dyno with very similar weather and see how the results come out.

As said above this has turned into a pissing match (with good reason) and I would just like to see honest numbers.
Now that I read this again, Kraest is damn near calling Tony a liar towards the end. Saying his heads and or his buddys heads are special.
Come on man, that isn't cool. Even if they were we have no proof so saying that just isnt right.

 

Hopefully there will be track times posted soon to quantify the actual performance. If the car runs 125mph with the current setup, it's probably safe to say that the heads work and are a viable option for someone looking for a nice budget setup. I'll be the second one to ask for track times.

 

Your right, I lashed out at you because I'm sick of Kraests ridiculous claims and this thread in general.

 

This thread is done.