Disappointing results with TFS Heads
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 507
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From: Ankeny, IA
Originally Posted by slowride
Corvette's don't loose much at his level due to exhaust.. Stock ti ZO6 exhaust(chambered) had made over 500whp on an agressive 347 setup. His Corsa is stright through so I don't see a problem with it.
Engine's running ok correct Joel? No excessive oil consumption or smoke? If it comes to it I have some stock lifters laying around you can have to make a solid set.
Engine's running ok correct Joel? No excessive oil consumption or smoke? If it comes to it I have some stock lifters laying around you can have to make a solid set.
I've got HS rockers coming in next week. I'm planning on logging some part and full throttle runs with the current rockers and the Harlands when they get here. Hopefully looking at the VE data, MAP, and how it behaves in PE will show us a difference (if any).
Originally Posted by LS1curious
Your a dumbass. Show me the Money with that camshaft ? show me the money ? whats do those cars run ? Yes overlap can kill power IF its excessive. Adding a set of quality heads to a camshaft like this one could easily push it into heavy reversion when the exhuast backs up at 3000-4000rpm.
where are you comming up with 7 degrees ? at what .050 ? hell thats not all the overlap in that camshaft.
but hey since a few guys here know everything about camshafts why argue ?
where are you comming up with 7 degrees ? at what .050 ? hell thats not all the overlap in that camshaft.
but hey since a few guys here know everything about camshafts why argue ?
Kill power if it's excessive? 7 degrees is FAR from excessive. There are far more aggressively cammed setups out there with more overlap, running "quality" heads as you put it, that don't run open headers like you claim is neccasary. Here's one for you, and this was with 16* overlap as well.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamometer-results-comparisons/732228-another-heads-cam-ls1-f-body-above-500-rwhp.html
I came up with 7 degrees of overlap using the proper formula, the one that everyone that knows anything about cams uses.
It has more than 7* you say
Go troll somewhere else 
Originally Posted by LS1curious
To much overlap in the camshaft. It'll kill Tq and HP with a head that efficient.
I think he needs to get another dyno opinion. The curves look good, just low. It could be a dyno with a bad weather correction. It happens.
__________________
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
2013 Corvette Grand Sport A6 LME forged 416, Greg Good ported TFS 255 LS3 heads, 222/242 .629"/.604" 121LSA Pat G blower cam, ARH 1 7/8" headers, ESC Novi 1500 Supercharger w/8 rib direct drive conversion, 747rwhp/709rwtq on 93 octane, 801rwhp/735rwtq on race fuel, 10.1 @ 147.25mph 1/4 mile, 174.7mph Half Mile.
2016 Corvette Z51 M7 Magnuson Heartbeat 2300 supercharger, TSP LT headers, Pat G tuned, 667rwhp, 662rwtq, 191mph TX Mile.
2009.5 Pontiac G8 GT 6.0L, A6, AFR 230v2 heads. 506rwhp/442rwtq. 11.413 @ 121.29mph 1/4 mile, 168.7mph TX Mile
2000 Pewter Ram Air Trans Am M6 heads/cam 508 rwhp/445 rwtq SAE, 183.092 TX Mile
2022 Cadillac Escalade 6.2L A10 S&B CAI, Corsa catback.
2023 Corvette 3LT Z51 soon to be modified.
Custom LSX tuning in person or via email press here.
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Really. I have seen all of the Vengance stuff puke when tesed on Other dynometers. But hey droppping the exhuast doens't cost anything and if its what i keep saying it is then the car should pick up a ton o power.
Having done some work on SCCA cars with clossed exhuast I saw the exact opposite trend when testing. We saw cars pick up 40-50 hp at the tire by taking the camshafts and opening up the lobe splits and killing overlap.Those cars are required to meet a very stringent track ordinance of 76DB at the property line at some tracks. Can't really run big bore exhuast that flows good.
So how do you do you testing ?
Having done some work on SCCA cars with clossed exhuast I saw the exact opposite trend when testing. We saw cars pick up 40-50 hp at the tire by taking the camshafts and opening up the lobe splits and killing overlap.Those cars are required to meet a very stringent track ordinance of 76DB at the property line at some tracks. Can't really run big bore exhuast that flows good.
So how do you do you testing ?
Originally Posted by Patrick G
I have to disagree. The Vengeance Vindicator cam is a 240/244 112LSA that has shown to be outstanding with the TFS heads. The Vindicator has 18 degrees of overlap and there are several heads/cam dynos above 500 rwhp. My cam and heads are very similar to the Vengeance top performers. My cam is a 238/242 112LSA with 16 degrees of overlap. With my excellent exhaust flow, I'd make even more power with 20 degrees of overlap, but I'm not sure if the additional gain in power would be worth the loss in driveability. Overlap is power (up to a certain point). With the modest overlap of the cam in question, the thread starter is FAR from the point of diminishing returns when it comes from too much overlap.
I think he needs to get another dyno opinion. The curves look good, just low. It could be a dyno with a bad weather correction. It happens.
I think he needs to get another dyno opinion. The curves look good, just low. It could be a dyno with a bad weather correction. It happens.
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Whats the overlap from 0.0006 to 0.006 or seat to seat. just using the 0.050 numbers doesn;t tell you everything.
the only people here full of **** are the people who say the same thing every other person parrots.
the only people here full of **** are the people who say the same thing every other person parrots.
Originally Posted by BriancWS6
Are your eyes brown? Yep, thought so, your completely full of ****. I never once said that was the "money" camshaft to use. I said there's nothing wrong with that cam, or the amount of overlap it has. It's been a proven performer regardless.
Kill power if it's excessive? 7 degrees is FAR from excessive. There are far more aggressively cammed setups out there with more overlap, running "quality" heads as you put it, that don't run open headers like you claim is neccasary. Here's one for you, and this was with 16* overlap as well.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=732228
I came up with 7 degrees of overlap using the proper formula, the one that everyone that knows anything about cams uses.
It has more than 7* you say Go troll somewhere else
Kill power if it's excessive? 7 degrees is FAR from excessive. There are far more aggressively cammed setups out there with more overlap, running "quality" heads as you put it, that don't run open headers like you claim is neccasary. Here's one for you, and this was with 16* overlap as well.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=732228
I came up with 7 degrees of overlap using the proper formula, the one that everyone that knows anything about cams uses.
It has more than 7* you say
Go troll somewhere else i SEE a trend with your post LS1Curious.
I have a f13 cam, 11.38 @122 in a 3726 lb car with heads that only flow 257 cfm @ .600 lift seems like the cam works pretty well.
all of the vengence cars that made 500+ on there dyno also back it up with mph at the track.
I think your oppinion on this board is getting old. Even though, You seem to know how to present your theories , You seem to like to misdirect people.
jmo
I have a f13 cam, 11.38 @122 in a 3726 lb car with heads that only flow 257 cfm @ .600 lift seems like the cam works pretty well.
all of the vengence cars that made 500+ on there dyno also back it up with mph at the track.
I think your oppinion on this board is getting old. Even though, You seem to know how to present your theories , You seem to like to misdirect people.
jmo
The F13 has 58 degrees of overlap at .006" which is lower than most of the cams that pull really high numbers. Of course, the Cam Motion lobes used aren't as agressive at .006" so it checks in like a slightly larger cam right off the seat.
Regardless, the F13 is a good performer in the midrange - it's never been a top-end camshaft. Retarding it 4 degrees to bring the ICL to 112 would help the top end, but the midrange torque would show a very slight loss - but what's shown on that graph is simply too low for that combo anyway, so there's something else at work.
Surprisingly, the LS1 is not as sensitive to exhaust restrictions as other motors - sure a cutout adds a lot, but the tuned elements of the exhaust - headers for example, make a big difference from stock but not a big difference in terms of 1-3/4 or 1-7/8 on most motors.
Exhaust valve and valve size plays a bigger role in what the engine wants in terms of a header primary/length versus the size and RPM of an engine (though those do play a vital role in determining what's ideal for an acceptable loss). But headers/exhaust don't have to be optimal on the LS1 to make big power. Even a 3" Y-Pipe with a single in/dual out muffler can support close to 500rwhp with 1-3/4" headers on an LS1. This is because head flow on the LS1 is the single biggest obstacle in the exhaust pipeline - if the exhaust port and exhaust valve can't create good velocity and sustain high CFM flow, then a good exhaust can only help so much. The TFS heads have shown to be a good mix of valve diameter sizing and port design to maintain good velocity and overall flow independent of the header attached.
Regardless, the F13 is a good performer in the midrange - it's never been a top-end camshaft. Retarding it 4 degrees to bring the ICL to 112 would help the top end, but the midrange torque would show a very slight loss - but what's shown on that graph is simply too low for that combo anyway, so there's something else at work.
Surprisingly, the LS1 is not as sensitive to exhaust restrictions as other motors - sure a cutout adds a lot, but the tuned elements of the exhaust - headers for example, make a big difference from stock but not a big difference in terms of 1-3/4 or 1-7/8 on most motors.
Exhaust valve and valve size plays a bigger role in what the engine wants in terms of a header primary/length versus the size and RPM of an engine (though those do play a vital role in determining what's ideal for an acceptable loss). But headers/exhaust don't have to be optimal on the LS1 to make big power. Even a 3" Y-Pipe with a single in/dual out muffler can support close to 500rwhp with 1-3/4" headers on an LS1. This is because head flow on the LS1 is the single biggest obstacle in the exhaust pipeline - if the exhaust port and exhaust valve can't create good velocity and sustain high CFM flow, then a good exhaust can only help so much. The TFS heads have shown to be a good mix of valve diameter sizing and port design to maintain good velocity and overall flow independent of the header attached.
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LMFAO... Any proof to back up your accusations? We have had SEVERAL customers take their cars elsewhere and make the same if not MORE power than they have on our dyno... Not to mention the packages we have sold over the net that have made excellent power without us laying a finger on the car?!?!?!?
347Fairless is running 121 cam only with our Vindicator in a full weight F body and we have NEVER touched his car.
David White is running 6.80s in +2000 DA with our Vindicator in the 1/8 in a 3500lb F Body
BradZ06 is running 6.89@101 with a Vindictor in his Vette in the 1/8
And on and on and on.....
FWIW, we just completed a 440 LS7 that is making 609/551 with a 20 minute cooldown on our dyno... I just drove the customers car over an hour to another dyno shop that is known/trusted by almost everyone in Ga to be dead accurate if not a bit low and I pulled 618/526 right off the street with ZERO cool down... I will have graphs posted shortly..
So please, fill me in on our "puking" power"....
347Fairless is running 121 cam only with our Vindicator in a full weight F body and we have NEVER touched his car.
David White is running 6.80s in +2000 DA with our Vindicator in the 1/8 in a 3500lb F Body
BradZ06 is running 6.89@101 with a Vindictor in his Vette in the 1/8
And on and on and on.....
FWIW, we just completed a 440 LS7 that is making 609/551 with a 20 minute cooldown on our dyno... I just drove the customers car over an hour to another dyno shop that is known/trusted by almost everyone in Ga to be dead accurate if not a bit low and I pulled 618/526 right off the street with ZERO cool down... I will have graphs posted shortly..
So please, fill me in on our "puking" power"....
Originally Posted by LS1curious
Really. I have seen all of the Vengance stuff puke when tesed on Other dynometers. But hey droppping the exhuast doens't cost anything and if its what i keep saying it is then the car should pick up a ton o power.
Originally Posted by LS1curious
Really. I have seen all of the Vengance stuff puke when tesed on Other dynometers. But hey droppping the exhuast doens't cost anything and if its what i keep saying it is then the car should pick up a ton o power.
Having done some work on SCCA cars with clossed exhuast I saw the exact opposite trend when testing. We saw cars pick up 40-50 hp at the tire by taking the camshafts and opening up the lobe splits and killing overlap.Those cars are required to meet a very stringent track ordinance of 76DB at the property line at some tracks. Can't really run big bore exhuast that flows good.
So how do you do you testing ?
Having done some work on SCCA cars with clossed exhuast I saw the exact opposite trend when testing. We saw cars pick up 40-50 hp at the tire by taking the camshafts and opening up the lobe splits and killing overlap.Those cars are required to meet a very stringent track ordinance of 76DB at the property line at some tracks. Can't really run big bore exhuast that flows good.
So how do you do you testing ?
yes you can. trust me. its called angling the exhaust output higher (or even lower so it gets muffled off the ground) then the level of the decibal readers around the track. My family has been involved in SCCA and Vintage racing my whole life and my dad raced a big bore Vette, trust me on this one, there are ways around the decibal meter without resrticting your exhaust and changing cams..
and i've yet seen a Vengeance car take a puke on another dyno.
i guess i should also mention, its 96db. not 76, our Vette was runing consistantly between 100-110db at just about every track. did we ever change our cam setup? NO. did we ever have to completely re-do and restrict our exhaust? NO
Last edited by SIK02SS; Jun 19, 2007 at 01:56 PM.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 507
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From: Ankeny, IA
Ron you just have to kick a guy when he's down with those graphs don't you? 
In all seriousness I'll probably be giving you guys a call if the rockers don't seem to make a change. I'd at least like to squeeze 450rwhp out of this old girl.
In all seriousness I'll probably be giving you guys a call if the rockers don't seem to make a change. I'd at least like to squeeze 450rwhp out of this old girl.
Originally Posted by LS1curious
the only people here full of **** are the people who say the same thing every other person parrots.
I don't see a car listed in your sig? Maybe you should go join a mustang site or something. If your lucky, they might think your BS is the truth, and actually go along with it.
Oh, and it has nothing to do with people agreeing with one another in this instance. All of the guys that have agreed your wrong, are knowledgable individuals.
99C5JA, sorry for the arguments in your thread, however, I just didnt like the guy making it look like your choice of camshaft was the problem. I hope you get your issues resolved, and produce the numbers your hoping for. Be sure to post up when you do. Good luck, and nice car
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 636
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From: Cumming, GA
I have already said this once
Call Vengeance we will get you squared away
Call Vengeance we will get you squared away
Originally Posted by 99C5JA
Ron you just have to kick a guy when he's down with those graphs don't you? In all seriousness I'll probably be giving you guys a call if the rockers don't seem to make a change. I'd at least like to squeeze 450rwhp out of this old girl.
In all seriousness I'll probably be giving you guys a call if the rockers don't seem to make a change. I'd at least like to squeeze 450rwhp out of this old girl.
Originally Posted by BriancWS6
LS1"curious", yep, that's a perfect screen name for you, cause you sure don't know wtf your talking about buddy. You barked up the wrong tree this time.
I don't see a car listed in your sig? Maybe you should go join a mustang site or something. If your lucky, they might think your BS is the truth, and actually go along with it.
Oh, and it has nothing to do with people agreeing with one another in this instance. All of the guys that have agreed your wrong, are knowledgable individuals.
I don't see a car listed in your sig? Maybe you should go join a mustang site or something. If your lucky, they might think your BS is the truth, and actually go along with it.
Oh, and it has nothing to do with people agreeing with one another in this instance. All of the guys that have agreed your wrong, are knowledgable individuals.
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Joined: Sep 2003
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According to the TFS website:
http://www.trickflow.com/product/che...r_ls_specs.asp
1.300" o.d. double spring
140 lbs. @ 1.800" installed height
385 lbs. @ 1.150" open
377 lbs. per inch rate
.600" maximum valve lift
Are you getting coilbind w/.595" lift? How much preload do you have in? Your cam is very close to the spec on the springs if they are the "standard" springs from TFS.
I just got a set from TEA, docs state they have the TEA Gold Springs.
160 @ 1.8" AND 450 @ 1.20, thats 401 @ 1.2 for the above springs, so the springs I have are diff from above. My heads are 61cc.
I am putting a 224/228-581/588-112+2 Comp Cam, HS RR, Kooks 1-7/8" Kooks w/cats and 7.5" pushrods. I will report back on the power in a few weeks.
I would be very interested to see a datalog of your engine running.
IDLE STFT and LTFT and WOT 02 and MAF readings. I can hardly believe the 112 is the problem.
http://www.trickflow.com/product/che...r_ls_specs.asp
1.300" o.d. double spring
140 lbs. @ 1.800" installed height
385 lbs. @ 1.150" open
377 lbs. per inch rate
.600" maximum valve lift
Are you getting coilbind w/.595" lift? How much preload do you have in? Your cam is very close to the spec on the springs if they are the "standard" springs from TFS.
I just got a set from TEA, docs state they have the TEA Gold Springs.
160 @ 1.8" AND 450 @ 1.20, thats 401 @ 1.2 for the above springs, so the springs I have are diff from above. My heads are 61cc.
I am putting a 224/228-581/588-112+2 Comp Cam, HS RR, Kooks 1-7/8" Kooks w/cats and 7.5" pushrods. I will report back on the power in a few weeks.
I would be very interested to see a datalog of your engine running.
IDLE STFT and LTFT and WOT 02 and MAF readings. I can hardly believe the 112 is the problem.
Thread Starter
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 507
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From: Ankeny, IA
The springs are the standard ones. I would hope that they are engineered with a little bit of extra tolerance in them. .600 should mean just that. I'll be logging before and after runs this week when swapping the rockers.
Originally Posted by Ron@Vengeance
Graphs as promised... Pardon the dip @ 6500 on the top graph. I shut down the car @ 6500 and the dyno operator was still sampling.....
How did you gain 8 hp and lose 25 ft lbs of torque???
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Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Plano, Tx.
Originally Posted by Stang's Bane
Ron,
How did you gain 8 hp and lose 25 ft lbs of torque???
How did you gain 8 hp and lose 25 ft lbs of torque???
Originally Posted by Ron@Vengeance
FWIW, we just completed a 440 LS7 that is making 609/551 with a 20 minute cooldown on our dyno... I just drove the customers car over an hour to another dyno shop that is known/trusted by almost everyone in Ga to be dead accurate if not a bit low and I pulled 618/526 right off the street with ZERO cool down... I will have graphs posted shortly..