vindicatorII dyno #'s
Originally Posted by ERIK@MASPORT
Did I miss his plans for the car?? If so I apologize...is it a track car?
I just don't want this to happen:
Joe Schmo comes on this site because he wants to make more power in his LSx powered vehicle...SO, the first thing he does is go to the dyno section and DROOLS over the fact that a guy with a cam only set up put over 420 @ the wheels...so he thinks he should do the same...
Meanwhile he has no idea that the cam is not intended to drive your grandma to church on Sunday morning lol..a few hundred miles later, he now realizes that in order to go anywhere, he has to beat the **** out of his motor, something he probably didn't intend on doing when he first set out on his venture.
I am VERY impressed by these vindicator cams..reminds me of the Magic Stick series! Let's just make things clear for all to see, every cam has its purpose, and YES, you can absolutely overcam a 346 without even knowing it...
That's all I am getting at...
I just don't want this to happen:
Joe Schmo comes on this site because he wants to make more power in his LSx powered vehicle...SO, the first thing he does is go to the dyno section and DROOLS over the fact that a guy with a cam only set up put over 420 @ the wheels...so he thinks he should do the same...
Meanwhile he has no idea that the cam is not intended to drive your grandma to church on Sunday morning lol..a few hundred miles later, he now realizes that in order to go anywhere, he has to beat the **** out of his motor, something he probably didn't intend on doing when he first set out on his venture.
I am VERY impressed by these vindicator cams..reminds me of the Magic Stick series! Let's just make things clear for all to see, every cam has its purpose, and YES, you can absolutely overcam a 346 without even knowing it...
That's all I am getting at...
Second, is the guy not supposed to post his results just so that Joe Schmo doesn't "overcam" his car? All that he did was state his results, it is up to Joe to pick the right cam for his wants/needs/desires etc.
Jackass? I am just stating what I know...not trying to be a jackass...who, when, where? I gave the guy props for the power, AND the camshaft and its creators..when was I a jackass? This is a forum, and yes, even sponsors have insight and opinions..so, if that hurts your feelings, well, sorry.
Do you not think that a "Joe Schmo" that may not know as much as some others may come on this site and buy a part based on SOMEONE ELSES results...it happens ALL THE TIME...
Do you not think that a "Joe Schmo" that may not know as much as some others may come on this site and buy a part based on SOMEONE ELSES results...it happens ALL THE TIME...
Originally Posted by ls1muscle
People take dyno #'s way too seriously. You can change so many things to make higher #'s, take it to the track and see what mph you pick up. I picked up 7 mph, and could easily hit 120 mph with cooler air while only dynoing at 410 rwhp.
There is a reason that many people come on this site and are so concerned about dyno #s, that reason is because they are only concerned about dyno #s not track times. Let them go after the big #. Some people have to learn the hard way, if they put a big cam in and they don't like it, then they can pull it out, sell it and put a smaller one in, not that big of a deal.
Originally Posted by mudflap1989
Maybe people take track times too seriously. Has it ever occured to you (and many others on this site) that maybe people don't even care about taking their cars to the track? So what if they just want a big # and they are willing to deal with the challenges that go along with a big cam, does that really hurt you? It is really no different than building a show car that is only driven off and on the trailer. I don't care for show cars, I doubt that I'll ever build one, but I have no problem with others building them and I don't tell them to take it to the track and see what mph it picked up. I have many cars that I race, but I also have a Z06 that I have taken to the track once and I never plan on taking it back again, I have two camaros for that.
There is a reason that many people come on this site and are so concerned about dyno #s, that reason is because they are only concerned about dyno #s not track times. Let them go after the big #. Some people have to learn the hard way, if they put a big cam in and they don't like it, then they can pull it out, sell it and put a smaller one in, not that big of a deal.
There is a reason that many people come on this site and are so concerned about dyno #s, that reason is because they are only concerned about dyno #s not track times. Let them go after the big #. Some people have to learn the hard way, if they put a big cam in and they don't like it, then they can pull it out, sell it and put a smaller one in, not that big of a deal.
yeesh
Originally Posted by ERIK@MASPORT
Is that so, hmm, ok, let's break this down using info from your graph...
So, @ 3000 rpm you're making a WHOPPING 190 rwhp
@ 4000 rpm, you're making a killer 290 rwhp
@5000 (revs getting higher and HIGHER), you're making a SICK 380 RWHP
...finally you have made it to 6000 rpm, and guess what, you're making 430 rwhp, about 20 rwhp LESS than your peak, which BTW was much higher in the revs, about 6500+ (not your average shift point on a STREET car when going to get some groceries lol)
Now, let's see your trq curve...looks nice, looks healthy, but wait, it doesn't even start to peak until 5000 rpm...WOW, pretty high up there just to try and break the tires loose...
So, thank you for posting your graph, it just proved EXACTLY what I was saying...bigger cams PEAK @ higher rpms, PERIOD...that is not to say they don''t make power, they most certainly do, but it is simple mechanics of a camshaft and its profile that detrmine the power output and when it occurs...
As far as your good idle, thank the tune for that- the cam has NOTHING to do with it...anyone with enough time can tame any camshaft to idle very well, with minor changes to your driving habits for larger cams...
Telling me that I basically have "jumped" off a mountain is a bold statement, especially when you post a graph that proves my prior statements to be correct...
So, Thanks
So, @ 3000 rpm you're making a WHOPPING 190 rwhp
@ 4000 rpm, you're making a killer 290 rwhp
@5000 (revs getting higher and HIGHER), you're making a SICK 380 RWHP
...finally you have made it to 6000 rpm, and guess what, you're making 430 rwhp, about 20 rwhp LESS than your peak, which BTW was much higher in the revs, about 6500+ (not your average shift point on a STREET car when going to get some groceries lol)
Now, let's see your trq curve...looks nice, looks healthy, but wait, it doesn't even start to peak until 5000 rpm...WOW, pretty high up there just to try and break the tires loose...
So, thank you for posting your graph, it just proved EXACTLY what I was saying...bigger cams PEAK @ higher rpms, PERIOD...that is not to say they don''t make power, they most certainly do, but it is simple mechanics of a camshaft and its profile that detrmine the power output and when it occurs...
As far as your good idle, thank the tune for that- the cam has NOTHING to do with it...anyone with enough time can tame any camshaft to idle very well, with minor changes to your driving habits for larger cams...
Telling me that I basically have "jumped" off a mountain is a bold statement, especially when you post a graph that proves my prior statements to be correct...
So, Thanks
Sometimes it is not that a big cam makes a car lose power down low as much as it is the car is just peaking later and that makes the bottom end feel softer even if it has not lost power down low.
And I wasn't trying to insult you with the jackass comment, I was just suggesting that as a sponsor you need to word your comments very carefully. I can make jackass comments and it doen't mean anything because I'm not making a dime by being on here.
Originally Posted by ERIK@MASPORT
Hmm, maybe that is why there are "jackass" sponsors like myself who try and HELP others choose parts that will make them HAPPY...instead of allowing them to buy something they will hate down the road, only costing them more time and money trying to fix (learning the hardway as you put it)
yeesh
yeesh
Let me show you how Erik did nothing wrong here:
He states, which is true that u have to rev very high to make the power, and states they are great numbers, not knocking on anything
He then takes time to educate another member of y he said it takes alot to make the power, the member didnt even know when stock redline is, AND again states that they are great numbers with a great cam
THEN THE ACTUAL CREATOR OF THE CAM AGREES WITH WHAT ERIK SAYS, ALONG WITH MANY OTHER PEOPLE, BUT VENGEANCE DOES ARGUE THAT IT MAKES GOOD POWER UNDER THE CRUVE, which, what erik is saying, is for most GENERAL cams not only vengeance ones, not all big cam dynos look as wonderful as the vengeance ones do
and then you write that hes wrong in very argumentive terms, saying "if someone jumped off a mountain" is very argumentative in a bad way, and he thens trys to prove his point as well as he can with the dyno u gaev him. and JUST TO CLEARIFY you state that hes wrong, even though hes not just talking about ure one dyno, dynos can say anything. u think all MS3s make more power down low then any smaller cam EVER?.... no. sometimes the smaller cams win
AND ON TOP OF ALL THIS, u call him a jackass, which u shouldnt ever call anyone, especially a sponsor, if they never attack you directly
AND LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT, if u called our shop wanting a cam recomendation from someone who has one of the most powerful H/C 346 LS1 ive ever seen, and erik said he recommends a smaller cam for the street and he states all of his reasons, u would call him a jackass?
He states, which is true that u have to rev very high to make the power, and states they are great numbers, not knocking on anything
Originally Posted by ERIK@MASPORT
Too bad you have to rev to the moon to make power...like the rest of the bigger cams (I drive an MS3, so I know exactly what I am talking about lol)
Very nice numbers indeed!......But it'll get old.....
Erik
Very nice numbers indeed!......But it'll get old.....
Erik
Originally Posted by ERIK@MASPORT
First off, why only 6500 on the 1-2 (not hitting peak with that shift point, ESPECIALLY with that sized duration on a 346)??
Secondly, unless this car is going to be on the track weekend after weekend...how often are you going to take it up to 6800rpm+ on the streets? (this is an AGE OLD arguement many have had here)
Take it from the guys with big cam experience, they make SICK power no doubt, but 1/2 of it is USELESS unless on the track or some road racing where you keep the motor in the power band most of the time...
I would drive a 228/232 (or something along those lines) and enjoy a beefy power band all the from 2000+ rpm, then a BIG cam (which I am running now) which BLOWS below 3500 but HAULS @ 5500-7200...
Think about it..
Like I said though, to each his own, VERY nice numbers especially through a stalled auto!! Congrats!
Erik
Secondly, unless this car is going to be on the track weekend after weekend...how often are you going to take it up to 6800rpm+ on the streets? (this is an AGE OLD arguement many have had here)
Take it from the guys with big cam experience, they make SICK power no doubt, but 1/2 of it is USELESS unless on the track or some road racing where you keep the motor in the power band most of the time...
I would drive a 228/232 (or something along those lines) and enjoy a beefy power band all the from 2000+ rpm, then a BIG cam (which I am running now) which BLOWS below 3500 but HAULS @ 5500-7200...
Think about it..
Like I said though, to each his own, VERY nice numbers especially through a stalled auto!! Congrats!
Erik
Originally Posted by Ron@Vengeance
Erik,
I can certainly agree with you about the Vindicator not being for everyone, BUT you do not have to rev any higher with the Vindicator than any other camshaft to have good power.
The graph posted below represents two Z06s with identical mods with the exception of the camshafts. The Z06 making 409 has our VRX3 camshaft in it and the Z06 making 438 has our Vindicator camshaft. Notice that there is ZERO loss down low with the Vindicator Vs our VRX3 (226/228 114). If someone has a REPUTABLE tuner to make the larger cam run well, then the choice is a no brainer.... Tuning and VALVE EVENTS is where it is at with these packages plain and simple.
I can certainly agree with you about the Vindicator not being for everyone, BUT you do not have to rev any higher with the Vindicator than any other camshaft to have good power.
The graph posted below represents two Z06s with identical mods with the exception of the camshafts. The Z06 making 409 has our VRX3 camshaft in it and the Z06 making 438 has our Vindicator camshaft. Notice that there is ZERO loss down low with the Vindicator Vs our VRX3 (226/228 114). If someone has a REPUTABLE tuner to make the larger cam run well, then the choice is a no brainer.... Tuning and VALVE EVENTS is where it is at with these packages plain and simple.
and then you write that hes wrong in very argumentive terms, saying "if someone jumped off a mountain" is very argumentative in a bad way, and he thens trys to prove his point as well as he can with the dyno u gaev him. and JUST TO CLEARIFY you state that hes wrong, even though hes not just talking about ure one dyno, dynos can say anything. u think all MS3s make more power down low then any smaller cam EVER?.... no. sometimes the smaller cams win
Originally Posted by 347fairless
You couldn't be more off base if you jumped off the side of a mountain....give it up, see below for my losses down low, its amazing the car even idles threw a parking lot huh?
AND LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT, if u called our shop wanting a cam recomendation from someone who has one of the most powerful H/C 346 LS1 ive ever seen, and erik said he recommends a smaller cam for the street and he states all of his reasons, u would call him a jackass?
Last edited by Josh@MASPORT; Jul 27, 2007 at 01:56 AM.
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Verdad Gallardo and as a side point erik is talking about large cams in general he is not attacking ur exact dynograph, but in general most dyno graphs dont look as amazing as the vengeance ones, which is also stated by mphmotorsports.
remember guys, right now the cam only car will make very good down low power, but once u start adding large runner heads, FAST 90/90, higher flowing intake (ported maf etc) and exhaust (true duals, cutouts), u will slowly bring the power band higher and higher, and with certain combinations u could severely reduce the down low power.
Which wouldnt happen with a smaller cam, or could be cured with a smaller cam, which erik is getting at.
Which wouldnt happen with a smaller cam, or could be cured with a smaller cam, which erik is getting at.
Originally Posted by Phlip00WS6
Ok well back on the subject, those numbers are great! Time for that ported fast.
+1 on a ported FAST AFTER heads....that way you really see the gains and get your $ worth on the porting
I have a ported FAST, love it!
Either way, get rid of that LS1 intake...it's like breathing through a straw! I bet with that cam, and an Ls6 instake alone, you'd pick up a significant more on the top end man...and a nice chunk down low!
Erik
Last edited by ERIK@MASPORT; Jul 27, 2007 at 06:43 AM.
Originally Posted by mudflap1989
That is my whole point, big dyno #s make many people HAPPY. Also how many people have pulled our smaller cams to go bigger, did the sponsors not do their job? I am in sales also and you need to learn something, you cannot help everybody get exactly what they need, many people will buy what they want even if you know that it is not what they need. I appreciate you trying to help, but some people just have to learn the hard way period, you are being very naive if you think that you can change that. It just seemed that you came in here and started bashing all big cams. Everything is a trade-off, a big cam will likely not make as much power down low as a small cam and a smaller can will likely not make as power up high as a big cam. There are always pros and cons, you just seemed to be focusing on the cons.
Don't know if you noticed, but i HAVE AN MS3 (237/242)...lol
I love it, but it comes with SOME cons..it's just the nature of the beast..
As far as me being a sponsor, well, considering I pay a premium to be here, I feel that I have a right to post exactly what I think a customer should know, it is my "duty" as someone in my position...I would have said the same thing if he had called me and wanted me to spec a cam for him...that is not to say I would not have gone with a larger cam, but it is my job to inform customers, and shed some light on the subject so that they can make an informed decision on their own...
Originally Posted by Josh@MASPORT
Let me show you how Erik did nothing wrong here:
He states, which is true that u have to rev very high to make the power, and states they are great numbers, not knocking on anything
He then takes time to educate another member of y he said it takes alot to make the power, the member didnt even know when stock redline is, AND again states that they are great numbers with a great cam
THEN THE ACTUAL CREATOR OF THE CAM AGREES WITH WHAT ERIK SAYS, ALONG WITH MANY OTHER PEOPLE, BUT VENGEANCE DOES ARGUE THAT IT MAKES GOOD POWER UNDER THE CRUVE, which, what erik is saying, is for most GENERAL cams not only vengeance ones, not all big cam dynos look as wonderful as the vengeance ones do
and then you write that hes wrong in very argumentive terms, saying "if someone jumped off a mountain" is very argumentative in a bad way, and he thens trys to prove his point as well as he can with the dyno u gaev him. and JUST TO CLEARIFY you state that hes wrong, even though hes not just talking about ure one dyno, dynos can say anything. u think all MS3s make more power down low then any smaller cam EVER?.... no. sometimes the smaller cams win
AND ON TOP OF ALL THIS, u call him a jackass, which u shouldnt ever call anyone, especially a sponsor, if they never attack you directly
AND LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT, if u called our shop wanting a cam recomendation from someone who has one of the most powerful H/C 346 LS1 ive ever seen, and erik said he recommends a smaller cam for the street and he states all of his reasons, u would call him a jackass?
He states, which is true that u have to rev very high to make the power, and states they are great numbers, not knocking on anything
He then takes time to educate another member of y he said it takes alot to make the power, the member didnt even know when stock redline is, AND again states that they are great numbers with a great cam
THEN THE ACTUAL CREATOR OF THE CAM AGREES WITH WHAT ERIK SAYS, ALONG WITH MANY OTHER PEOPLE, BUT VENGEANCE DOES ARGUE THAT IT MAKES GOOD POWER UNDER THE CRUVE, which, what erik is saying, is for most GENERAL cams not only vengeance ones, not all big cam dynos look as wonderful as the vengeance ones do
and then you write that hes wrong in very argumentive terms, saying "if someone jumped off a mountain" is very argumentative in a bad way, and he thens trys to prove his point as well as he can with the dyno u gaev him. and JUST TO CLEARIFY you state that hes wrong, even though hes not just talking about ure one dyno, dynos can say anything. u think all MS3s make more power down low then any smaller cam EVER?.... no. sometimes the smaller cams win
AND ON TOP OF ALL THIS, u call him a jackass, which u shouldnt ever call anyone, especially a sponsor, if they never attack you directly
AND LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT, if u called our shop wanting a cam recomendation from someone who has one of the most powerful H/C 346 LS1 ive ever seen, and erik said he recommends a smaller cam for the street and he states all of his reasons, u would call him a jackass?
Originally Posted by HushH
Uh, the original poster is from Texas and I don't see anywhere that he said he was tuned and/or dynoed in GA. Our weather is not that much different from you guys down in FL either. 
I have seen 20+ dyno graphs from Rons shop and assumed that where the car was put together and tuned.
My point was comparing the Z06 (thinking it was dyno for dyno) with the same or a very similar cam to this car.
My fault for not seeing he was in Texas.
I will edit my original post with the info you opened my eyes to.
Thanks
Originally Posted by Josh@MASPORT
and as a side point erik is talking about large cams in general he is not attacking ur exact dynograph, but in general most dyno graphs dont look as amazing as the vengeance ones, which is also stated by mphmotorsports.
I 99% of the time have nothing wrong with the numbers being posted by vengeance. They do nothing that I can't do myself. The key word is combo.
When I see "another" 490 RWHP TFS/Venda combo I never question the power. Why? B/C it can be backed up on other dyno's, and with the parts being used I can see the "potential" of that combo.
I have done a few 485+ RWHP combo's myself NA, and even more 470+ without using a ported Fast or maybe staying with stock ported castings.
However the number in this thread are crazy, and IMO on the high side, especially in the Texas heat. That car will make over 430 more then likely in Feb, and **** SAE corrections. When you have a dyno in shop you see that SAE isn't perfect, especially when its 100 degrees outside and 105+ in the shop. I assumed the combo was done at Vengeance and that's why I started there must be something in the Georgia air. It was a joke for those who didn't read it all the way.
Honestly we can all argue for hrs and get no where. Lets have fun and who cares what our opinion of what any cam is, if the owner is happy then let him be happy. And after that here you go sir.
Have one on me and enjoy the new found power.
Originally Posted by Josh@MASPORT
He states, which is true that u have to rev very high to make the power, and states they are great numbers, not knocking on anything
and then you write that hes wrong in very argumentive terms, saying "if someone jumped off a mountain" is very argumentative in a bad way, and he thens trys to prove his point as well as he can with the dyno u gaev him. and JUST TO CLEARIFY you state that hes wrong, even though hes not just talking about ure one dyno, dynos can say anything. u think all MS3s make more power down low then any smaller cam EVER?.... no. sometimes the smaller cams win
AND ON TOP OF ALL THIS, u call him a jackass, which u shouldnt ever call anyone, especially a sponsor, if they never attack you directly
AND LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT, if u called our shop wanting a cam recomendation from someone who has one of the most powerful H/C 346 LS1 ive ever seen, and erik said he recommends a smaller cam for the street and he states all of his reasons, u would call him a jackass?
and then you write that hes wrong in very argumentive terms, saying "if someone jumped off a mountain" is very argumentative in a bad way, and he thens trys to prove his point as well as he can with the dyno u gaev him. and JUST TO CLEARIFY you state that hes wrong, even though hes not just talking about ure one dyno, dynos can say anything. u think all MS3s make more power down low then any smaller cam EVER?.... no. sometimes the smaller cams win
AND ON TOP OF ALL THIS, u call him a jackass, which u shouldnt ever call anyone, especially a sponsor, if they never attack you directly
AND LET ME GET THIS STRAIGHT, if u called our shop wanting a cam recomendation from someone who has one of the most powerful H/C 346 LS1 ive ever seen, and erik said he recommends a smaller cam for the street and he states all of his reasons, u would call him a jackass?
Josh and Erik, as I asked earlier, please post a graph of something similar to the 228/232 cam (with stock heads) that Erik previously recommended that makes considerably more power at 3k, 4k, 5k than fairless's car.
I didn't even actually call him a jackass, I said that he "comes across as a jackass", that is like the difference between saying someone made a stupid comment and calling someone stupid, it is a big difference. You actually should be happy that I gave you feedback from a customer point of view, regardless if you agree with me or not, it's still how I feel.
Part of the reason that I said he cam across as a jackass is because it seemed that Erik spoke to fairless in a very critical and demeaning manner and by reading his posts I also wonder about his true technical knowledge, now please provide something technical to this discussion and post a graph like I asked for.
Originally Posted by ERIK@MASPORT
Don't know if you noticed, but i HAVE AN MS3 (237/242)...lol
I love it, but it comes with SOME cons..it's just the nature of the beast..
As far as me being a sponsor, well, considering I pay a premium to be here, I feel that I have a right to post exactly what I think a customer should know, it is my "duty" as someone in my position...I would have said the same thing if he had called me and wanted me to spec a cam for him...that is not to say I would not have gone with a larger cam, but it is my job to inform customers, and shed some light on the subject so that they can make an informed decision on their own...
I love it, but it comes with SOME cons..it's just the nature of the beast..
As far as me being a sponsor, well, considering I pay a premium to be here, I feel that I have a right to post exactly what I think a customer should know, it is my "duty" as someone in my position...I would have said the same thing if he had called me and wanted me to spec a cam for him...that is not to say I would not have gone with a larger cam, but it is my job to inform customers, and shed some light on the subject so that they can make an informed decision on their own...
Originally Posted by mudflap1989
I wasn't even the one that posted the dyno chart. That was fairless.
Josh and Erik, as I asked earlier, please post a graph of something similar to the 228/232 cam (with stock heads) that Erik previously recommended that makes considerably more power at 3k, 4k, 5k than fairless's car.
I didn't even actually call him a jackass, I said that he "comes across as a jackass", that is like the difference between saying someone made a stupid comment and calling someone stupid, it is a big difference. You actually should be happy that I gave you feedback from a customer point of view, regardless if you agree with me or not, it's still how I feel.
Part of the reason that I said he cam across as a jackass is because it seemed that Erik spoke to fairless in a very critical and demeaning manner and by reading his posts I also wonder about his true technical knowledge, now please provide something technical to this discussion and post a graph like I asked for.
Josh and Erik, as I asked earlier, please post a graph of something similar to the 228/232 cam (with stock heads) that Erik previously recommended that makes considerably more power at 3k, 4k, 5k than fairless's car.
I didn't even actually call him a jackass, I said that he "comes across as a jackass", that is like the difference between saying someone made a stupid comment and calling someone stupid, it is a big difference. You actually should be happy that I gave you feedback from a customer point of view, regardless if you agree with me or not, it's still how I feel.
Part of the reason that I said he cam across as a jackass is because it seemed that Erik spoke to fairless in a very critical and demeaning manner and by reading his posts I also wonder about his true technical knowledge, now please provide something technical to this discussion and post a graph like I asked for.
but im going to look into this, because now im very interested to see if theres any lose
Originally Posted by mudflap1989
You do have right to say what you want, but it might not be profitable for your business, but that is your choice. Question: Why do so many shops offer such large cams? Answer: Because people want them, PERIOD, please understand that, but I do appreciate your concern to do what is right for the customer, but I don't think that steering everybody away from big cams is the answer, maybe your time should be more spent towards optimizing their set up with a big cam. I've had and have big cams and I am completely happy with them, everybody is different.
also erik would only steer people away from big cams if we can see thast not what their car is going to be used for, if someone came to use and said he wants to make the most power with the best track times we wouldnt steer him from anything BUT a big cam....
Originally Posted by Josh@MASPORT
we dont have our dyno computer connected to our regular computer, just a printer. i dont have a scanner (or know anyone who has one these days) but as soone as i can ill get the dyno from our last 225/225 stock everything else car and ill check. btu the problem is our dyno tends to read very low, always. so even if i could show u the dyno i dont know if it would prove anything to u, (we have a mustang dyno)
but im going to look into this, because now im very interested to see if theres any lose
but im going to look into this, because now im very interested to see if theres any lose
I'm not trying to argue that big cams don't lose power down low, we all know that they usually do (although the vindicator has made some really great #s down low, better #'s than most big cams do). I was talking directly about Erik's comments about Fairless' car. I think that Erik was speaking about something that he really didn't understand. Fairless' car makes great power around 3k and 4k. But maybe I'm the one that doesn't understand, to prove me wrong all that you have to do is post a graph.