Black LS1 T/A

I take issue with the suggestion Rob is being overly defensive. Anyone who thinks that has not seen the history of unsubstantiated attacks on him and this kit. There is a point even a sheep will bite.

Rob, you nor anyone else dictates to the moderators when to lock a thread. That being said, you made this bed, unless someone else locks it, from my perspective, you will lie in it.

Finally, it is obvious to me Warbird is not being forthcoming about the original question. I'd want him to clear up his unfounded statement if it were me he had maligned. He would want that, too, if he were incorrectly accused. So far, all he has done has been to tap dance around the question... no straight-forward answer. That speaks volumes to me... and calls into question the credibility of any other statements made; particularly when there are other kits driving around with no significant issues.

Rob Raymer

I apologize if I come off rash. But I have been bashed for literally months now, called a liar among other thigs, and have up until 2 days ago, bit my tongue. I am still human, I still get mad, and I still make mistakes. In hindsight, I MAY have been more rude than I should have been. But as BlackLS1T/A said, I have been the target of unsubstantiated attacks on me for a long time now. Everyone has their breaking point, and I have reached mine. Right or wrong, I will live with that.

This thread could have been only two posts long had Warbird been a Man and simply answered my question, or proved me wrong. That's obviously still not going to happen. Mainly because I think he now sees this thread as a haven for having others bash me while he sits back and laughs. Why else would he let it go 6 pages long without a REAL answer?

I don't care if this thread gets locked, deleted, or turned into a rotating banner.

This entire episode will without a doubt affect my willingness to respond publicly to Message Boards in the future. This is why you now see so many Vendors that do not. Believe me, it's a subject that ALWAYS comes up when we sponsors/advertisers get together at SEMA, PRI, etc.

Some will see that as a good thing that my posting will be limited. However, I can guarantee you that many will be robbed of the help and knowledge that could be given from our posts.

I have nothing more to say.

Black LS1 T/A

And there you have it, friends!

Yet another vendor who attempted to provide us with an LS1 product and regularly posted to answer guys' questions gets kicked in the teeth and decides it's not worth it.

Perhaps some of you are happy, now.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

I get it.

Rob is mad.

I'd be mad too.

MM went 11.3@126 (almost a 127), I think that's a ringing endorsement of the QMP if I ever saw one. MM you did not know what your ARE motor had for a long time so call a spade a spade.

RiceEtr you are like troll city... You just keep the flame burning in these threads.

Warbird, I"m sorry but you used our board to vent and grip and dump, and now you won't post the results. I got your PM, and I am not going to respond to it. We use the message board to make things work, we don't gripe on it and then not tell anyone what worked or did not work. If you talked to Rob for an hour is that not a good thing why not appreciate that?

I just see blame/cry/gripe/cry coming from MM/Warbird/RiceEtr. You got tuner kits for like 60-70% of normal price so you get NO love from me!!! I know what a tuner version of the kit costs, I wish I had gotten one!

Warbird

I'm not laughing, I'm pissed at throwing thousands of dollars down the drain, and having to spend more to correct someones mistake.

Rob, you forgot to change your user name , I have held back in the hopes that you would offer to fix the problem or at least start to listen to what people had to say instead of being bull headed about the whole thing. Awwwwwwwwww **** it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are not here to help, you are her to make money. Being a philanthrapist is the furthest thing from your mind so lets drop the bullshit. Even spending time on the phone with you was a waste of an hour, you didn't offer to help you simply bashed my motor and told me what I already knew "change my exhaust"

Your kit was designed with an inherent design flaw that you know about and simply decided to push the limits of, without informing your customers. You were told this long before you built the kit in the first place. You have not answered yet to the question, "tuner kit/full kit" as to how many big displacement motors this kit has gone into? The reason you ignore it, is because mine is the only one on the road today. You maxed out your 404 and that is why I believe you sold it, it simply wasn't capable of making more power with the design of this log style kit and you knew it.

I have been working to clarify my position and have been in contact with a number of turbo experts in the field. My approach to solving my overheating issue was wrong because with your kit it can't be fixed only masked with the mods I have done. Just to clarify, the motor, placement of the intercooler, new rad, timing have nothing to do with my problem. It's the QMP turbo kit. Your tuner kit is identical in every way to the retail kit, except I chose to provide my own injectors, plugs and tuning.

My engine pumps easilly 50% more gases than a stock displacement engine for starters. The cause of my overheating is your log style manifold and the back pressure it causes in my engine and others. The problem will eventually show up in smaller engines (as breakage), especially when people start to up the boost. On a stock motor with your turbo kit, if you measured internal exhaust pressure under load you would easilly see around 60 psi of back pressure, high and eventually damaging, on my motor I am seeing 90+ psi of back pressure easilly enough to blow off my crossover pipes, crack manifolds, blow off clamps and damage my turbo seals (this is the reason I am blowing oil heavilly).

The fact that I welded my seams was a huge mistake because now pressure has no where to go except back into the motor, and it will eventuall grenade. The simple fact that my motor is still alive is a testament to how well built it was from the start.

Simply put my engine moves far more exhaust than your kit is able to handle, my exhaust backs up under load and where does that exhaust go? Answer; the exhaust is rigid so it trys to find an opening and or it pumps it right back into the motor overheating it. My car does not overheat or even get warm under zero load because the exhaust is able to flow at a slower rate and escape via the normal route (turbo is not spooled). Under load (turbo spooled) it can't, that's why my exhaust and engine resonate under load and the heat builds up very quickly and I start to overheat.

To date everything I have done, passenger header, oil scavenging pump, radiator, better coolant have only helped to mask this far more serious problem. I do know how it will be fixed but I simply won't tell you except to say I will longer have a QMP kit in my car.

You wanted a straight answer there it is, black and white, no more hinting.

I hope you're in this for the short haul on making money with these kits because I certainly smell the same odor I did with Incon. I could give a flying **** what your responses will be, more bashing, more avoiding direct questions, I know it you know it and I will deal with it on my own. I'm done with your games.

Please return to your regularly scheduled discussion

Paul

Hardtop

iTrader: (3)

Black LS1 T/A, you are a darn good moderator and have handled this thread very well. Props to you.


Bruce

Rob Raymer

Now that he has finally "somewhat" answered the question, HE HASN'T FIXED THE PROBLEM as he said, we all know who the liar is. Which he goes to prove even further with the slew of lies spewed in his post above.

So, can someone PLEASE shut Warbird up?

I'm done with Warbird, MM, and RICE ETR. I'm glad that none of them have, or will have our kit anymore. I'll continue to PROVE what can be done with it on my own car, as I have been doing. Who's ranked #1 again?
My car now has a T-88 with a 2 1/2 log, and a 2 1/2" crossover, and a STOCK passenger manifold. It STILL does not run hot. EVER. I'll do my talking at the track.

I completely agree about the Moderators job of handling this. Thank you.

MIGHTYMOUSE

iTrader: (59)

well said warbird.. i had the exact same results with my stock cid high boost application with the smaller 63mm and eventually others will as well.

psj fwiw we did not get a "deal"... we just did not pay for what we did not get (injectors fuel pump/tuning etc.)

so you are saying if it runs bad, its my fault because its a 'tuner' kit and i "tuned' it wrong.. but if it runs good then the praise goes to qmp for making a great product? toally contradictory.

situations like ours WILL happen and come up again if qmp sits on the kit as-is.. and i will have to watch people get f'd because we the customer are not being righted.

i dont think having a company car be a mere .1 faster than an individual with a stock bottom end is something to brag about.

RICE ETR

iTrader: (3)

He doesn't owe anyone ANYTHING! You are the one who is VERY childish and VERY unprofessional by making a post to call him out. Why couldn't this have been settled over the phone as you alwasy insist everyone else do? If you would re-read it you would see he answered it many times.... YOUR turbo kit caused his car to overheat. On a stock engine, the kit works great... yes i admit, as i have before.. it works great on a STOCK engine.... but anymore and the log manifold can't keep up. Warbird put a huge engine underneath your kit... something that nobody else has done, so i would think you would be more accepting of information from him.... and the result was an overheating engine due to too much backpressure coming mainly from the driver side log manifold.... END OF STORY!

again... there are others but they are probably not going to post up because they know you will blow up on them.


I am not disagreeing with you that it was restrictive.... please re-read my reply as well as look at the last post where i said what would be affected... HP and his spool up times... i even mentioned how a fellow stanger picked up power going from flowmasters to dynomax mufflers... remember that?
What i said was it was NOT restrictive enough to cause the manifold to crack... so in other words... if the catback was so restrictive, that it was more restrictive than your manifold, then he would have never made any boost.


Of course i can... he made 720rwtq on PUMP gas, and he would have made over 600rwhp if your manifold was as efficient as the T63 he was running so his boost would have held. I would say since i have yet to see that reproduced on a QMP kit that the A/F(11.5) he tuned his car too was very accurate.... and it does say alot about his tuning ability.


Same set-up?.... hmm hardly.... i have yet to see any pics of what turbo kit you were running at that time... PLEASE post pics up of it.. i would love to actually be proven wrong this time. You also had a larger turbo... which as i mentioned before... allowed some of that backpressue to be relieved.
Oh, and while were on the subject..... how about you tell everyone what "special" things had to be done to your engine from ARE to get it to seal..... how about sonic testing to find the beefiest heads.... then how about welding up the head's water ports.... you want to know why all that work had to be done while others on nitrous and FI can make more hp/tq without all that work? Reason being is your engine is seeing a tremendous amount of cylinder pressure for the power you make compared to the others due to that restrictive log.....Why aren't you cranking up the boost yet and making some more power? Still can't get that 88 to make boost?

And obviously copying a kit is even too much for you to handle....


MM's HG's were perfect.... i know because i helped pull the heads off....


True i did not waste any money on your kit.... BUT i did help install it and have worked around it enough that i think i have just as much right as someone who has actually purchased one.

Your right.... notice above how i said the kit works great on a STOCK engine... but Rob is claiming the kit is well capable of supporting whatever you put beneath it... and that's not true because of the log manifold..... there was a reason TT abandoned the log style manifold awhile ago....


For the last time, his car was NEVER lean! Stop making excuses.... if we have to believe that Shawn's manifold never cracked... (never saw any pics to confirm this) than you should start believing what we are saying.


If Rob had not deleted all the posts between us.... i could quote actual comments from him.... there were tons of discrepancies.... one where he even said "if you think you are going to make 700rwtq with our kit on a stock engine... you must be crazy because i barely made that with my built engine". Now why would he say that? 687rwtq is pretty damn close to 700 if you ask me.... do you not agree?


What? Where? Rob just said Warbird's was the largest yet.....


Ok.. i will lay this out clearly.... again....
Who buys a base kit? someone with a modified engine? NO someone with a stock/mostly stock engine...making around the stock HP levels.... right? Ok, so with a stock motor and the QMP kit, you can get around 500-550rwhp and alotta tq pretty easily.... still with me? So the kit is performing well but at this level about as efficiently as it can... and it's maxed out.
Who buys tuner kits? Someone with better heads, intake, cam, bottom end, etc.. so they are already making way more power than stock (as in Warbird's case) and also have the potential to run a lot of boost and make a lot of power..... well this is where things go south. The QMP kit based around that log will never do what these people are wanting it to do.... and so they start having problems.... like overheating, losing boost....
Does that not make sense to anyone?

Look at your A/F on that trusty dusty wideband when you dynoed..... boy look how flat it is... you really have that tuning nailed down


Rob, some of us do not have the funds you do and our cars are not tax write-offs. That mustang was my only means of transportation through engineering school and i built that car with spare money and only could work on it on the weekends or do all nighters... because it had to be running so i could get to school/work the next day. I bought the car ($2,800)with 121,000 miles on it, put a blower on around 200,000, sold it and some other stuff... saved for a long time and was lucky enough to work out a deal to get a previously owned but brand new and complete Incon TT kit. The kit sat in my garage for almost a year and half before i had found time/money to do a budget rebuild ($200).. no machining whatsoever, just new rings, main/rod bearings, oil pump and gaskets on a 250,000 mile long block. So no those numbers are not crazy good, but for what little had been done, for STOCK E7 heads, stock cam and pump gas.. it was respectible.
The car went from running low 13's at 100 mph to mid 11's at 124-125 mph. That was with an ill-shifting tremec (bought it used and got screwed.. synchros were junk) and no two-step. I am sure if i still had the car, and with my budget now, i would be giving you a run for your money at some Ford Vs. GM race

And as for my Ls1... well sure it is pretty slow compared to other cam'd cars (11.97 @ 115.8 1.77 60')... actually there is a whole list of stock cam'd cars faster than me. BUT i bought the car last november and everything i have done is in hopes of the next good turbo kit that comes out. The car is full weight and it will stay that way. I am not removing A/C or power anything nor my interior... and i don't plan on launching the car at 6,000 rpm's so my 60's will continue to suck while i stay N/A.


You continue to criticize me and MM yet you didn't do your tuning, you didn't do the springs.... what did you do? Sheesh... springs are easy... i did mine....

Oh... and Rob, Re; your PM.... as if i didn't think you were childish enough, are you now threatening to beat me up if you see me at the next car meet? If so then i really think you should withdraw that comment. Thanks.
-Jarrod

RICE ETR

iTrader: (3)

And from another post but very related...... thanks to the hurricane i was unable to post this in time.


I never said anything about his knowledge of tuning Ls1's... at that time as you of course know, it was completely new ground... i mean Ls1 Edit wasn't even out yet and nobody knew anything about FI tuning for Ls1's... so what did you exepct from TT? They provided the first street kit for Ls1's.

They did put the wastegate there for a reason. FACT.

.... sure in a perfect world and a perfect turbo system, the wastegate should be where yours is. However this isn't a perfect world... and TT didn't intend to design a perfect kit because it would have cost a fortune and taken longer to develop. As i already said, the TT kit was designed to be a STREET kit and was the first to the market... that was the whole idea. That's why they are now taking time to develop a race kit with tubular headers to support way more hp.
Back to the wastegate location... TT has it there to bleed off extra exhaust gases not needed for boost production... exhaust is a fluid so the pressure throughout the manifold is relatively the same.. this being said, both banks do indeed get vented just not in an ideal way to allow for constant one direction flow. For example, you have a balloon shaped like a "E", pop a hole in any one of the legs, and what happens to the pressure in the other legs?... well it lowers at the same rate, to the same level relatively speaking to right infront of the pin hole.
This same thing is happening when the wastegate opens, all of the pre-turbo exhaust piping loses pressure, not just the passenger side... AND now all of the exhaust that is being bled off does not have to go through the manifold first... so it doesn't impede the exhaust that actually will be used for boost production. Since it's not going through the manifold first before being vented, the overall backpressure of the system doesn't become a problem until a higher hp level.. THUS allowing the system as a whole to flow more overall.

If you want to get really technical, you will find (read the post from the Garrett turbo engineer) that dumping the wastegates exhaust back in right behind the turbos exhaust discharge is bad for flow as well. Your kit is like that.

I thought the TT A-4 kits always had that because there was more room for ground clearance?

I have enough to buy any kit on the market right now.... but i don't see anything yet that impresses me.... but don't worry, PTK's kit will be out soon as well as the race kit from TT... soon there will actually be a kit that everyone can compare to... then all of what i have said will be justified.

As with anything YOU yourself have said... it's just your word against mine right? It's always, "my kit this... my kit that"... but it is still your word against mine... show us some pics documenting your changes and the improvements.... show us all the date you recorded when you did the intercooler efficiency testing etc...

I am waiting.................

The TT kit which is pretty much the same kit... does begin to have backpressure vs. boost pressure issues around 500-550 hp... again if there had been any testing, you would have found this.

It's moderators of a FI section who are also sponsors AND sell a TURBO kit like you who can bend the rules, tell everyone i am lying and give reasons like "it is what it is" yet i have to defend myself with facts and you still lead people to believe i am wrong.. heck you even made a post calling Warbird out titled "Warbird Vs. QMP"... airing your dirty laundry... which reminds me... you did the same thing to Turbotech... but it was all ok because you are a moderator/sponsor.

Oh man... come on Rob, you take some else's design and make some slight changes and then give yourself all the credit? Now TT is getting a chance to make another turbo kit...a race kit.. so are you going to copy that, stamp your name on it and claim you where responsible for the whole thing? Heck, you didn't even know about turbos 3 years ago.

and speaking of those numbers.... did you ever post up graphs of Shawn's and other cars where you "fxed" the power drop off issue? You said it was fueling.. or was it valvesprings... Either way post up a graph of a stock turbo car that doesn't have the power dropping off....
again i am still waiting.............

Rob Raymer

How can I possibly make three people without the mental capacity understand anything?

There were at least 30 local F-Body members at the track that saw my car run the 9.86. (go to www.kyfbodies.org and ask) Everyone looked at it and many took pictures. Exact same kit on my car that we sell....exactly the same as Warbird's kit. It's not responsibility to do anything for you. You just can't stand the fact that you WERE WRONG!

Regarding dyno sheets, the one you are referring to was done over two years ago by Ed Wright. The current dyno sheet from my car (tuned by me) has a flat 11:1 AF. Did you look at my Buick's dyno graph that I also tuned? I also have a perfectly straight 11.5:1 AF graph with 500rwhp on Jonathan's Trans Am that I can email to anyone who wants to see it. (I tuned it with LS1Edit, 1st time ever! How 'bout that?)But I'm not going out of my way to post it to the website just because YOU doubt me.

So please show us MM's 11:1 AF graphs. Because one of you is lying. He has always said that he didn't get an AF reading, which is why he didn't post his AF graphs. Remember that? He uses ATAP to tune his car.....again, ingenius.

Lastly, I never threatened "to beat you up". But I did say that I wouldn't put up with your **** for two seconds in person. FACT. And I still stand by that statement.

I'm sorry, I know it's rash for me to say, but all three of you are idiots. I get dumber by the minute just trying to talk to you.

squirrel masta

what rpm does the power drop off, im kind of curious because im getting the kit hopfully soon and i need to know all so i can change to correct it,because im poor and am runnig a stock bottom end

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Last call, any final comments?

Here are mine:
1) The QMP vs Warbird/MM/RiceEtr threads have be be toned down, folks have beat this to death and frankly all of the parties get too charged up to have a productive discussion. I am not going to allow folks to have a feud on our site for the next 3-4 years about this.
2) I called Rob and he offered to take pics of his piping to show that it's the same stuff that he uses in the production kits. I am glad to host pics for any of you folks.
3) Maybe Warbird's bigger motor acts differently than smaller cube motor but why do the threads have to be like little wars? I just don't see how this stuff has to be so emotionally charged, why didn't the upset folks simply take their cars to QMP and go from there?
4) I know of two other cars getting the QMP setups, one already ran on stock longblock and it did 450rwhp thru cats and stock exhaust. Both installs took 1.5-2 days. I did not seek out these cars but I happened to hear about them.

Warbird

Yes, I will make my final summation this evening when I get home.

Give me a ******* break, emotionaly charged? John do you have any idea how much time, money and effort I have invested in this car. Who do you think is stuck with the repair bill if it lets go because of this now admitted defective product. Your damn right I'm going to get emotional when someone sells me a knowingly defective product, I just sank thousands of dollars and now have to spend thousands more to fix it. Rob can't even defend my answer to the problem because he knows, I hit the nail squarely on the head. FACT: Rob Raymer sold me a kit willingly with the full knowledge it could not work on my car, accepted mine/ARE's money (it doesn't matter) with a smile and makes no effort to make it right when it is shown to be defective. An internet offer carries no wieght I offered a compramise and he knew what the outcome would be, with me, that's called pandering. Furthermore he knows what the problem is and still decides to try to deflect blame from himself all the while happily accepting orders from an unsuspecting public. Rob, change your name to Dave. LS1tech, bury your head in the sand so nobody else can see this thread.

You give Rob the decency of a personal telephone call, but when I send you a "private" PM, you decide to publicly announce it. Talk about a double standard. We've actually met and talked a few times, you have clearly taken sides in this debate.

PSJ, did Rob offer you a free kit?

Malicious

iTrader: (1)

Why is it Rob's fault that your kit doesn't work? Lol, you didnt even buy it from him, you bought it from ARE who purchased a tuner kit WHOLESALE from Rob and installed it on your car. I think you might get a little more cooperation and understand if you remember that simple fact. I don't see anything else Mr Raymer has to do with this case besides deal with a bunch of loudmouths who would rather bash his product. He's offered to meet halfway to take your car back to his shop and figure out the problem but you balk on that. I don't know many people who would give you that opportunity. Most would tell you to bring it back or give it up. I mean yeah, I'd be mad too if my high dollar ARE motor got outpowered by a stock cube motor with a "defective" product strapped to it.

MIGHTYMOUSE

iTrader: (59)

depends on the combo, but for a stock type set up look at the peaks on the prototype cars graphs
http://www.ls1motorsports.com/Single_Turbo.asp

at 7psi the 6 speed peaked at around 5200rpm, then at 9psi it peaked just shy of 5krpm.. turn the boost up to where i had it and you get a peak at around 4krpm

compare this to some of the old incon graphs and you will see them pull to the same peak rpm as it did stock.. this is a good indication that the engine is within the efficiency range of the turbo kit.

Rob Raymer

"Admitted defective"?? Where in the hell did you get that? The only thing defective here is the owner of the car. IMHO.

KraZy

iTrader: (4)

You can take the kit off and sell it to me.

cablebandit

iTrader: (37)

LOL at Rob....if I ever think I am going to meet him, I'm gonna approach him with my drivers license so he can POSITIVELY identify who i am NOT!!!! Rob, I ,for one, appreciate the support you try to give your customers on this board. I don't always agree with you but it has always stuck out in my mind that at least you offer some help when you can instead of just "take the money and run" like some folks do.
Thanks!

10.5 Dave

iTrader: (5)

Please stick a fork in this bitch fest.