A2W on street car?
9 Second Club
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 985
Likes: 7
From: Lake Orion, MI
Rick,
If I read this correctly the TTI kit has a small W2A exhanger (with a fan) that cools the water before returning to the tank?
Do you have any pictures of it and where its mounted.
I asked before, anyone ever try direct contact injection if liquid Co2 into the A2W tank to keep the temp down. It could be hooked up and controlled like a nitrous system under WOT?
Anybody make a A2A that has an internal coil that nitrous or liquid Co2 runs in to bring the temp below ambient temps?or a seperate exchanger mounted in series with the A2A.
If I read this correctly the TTI kit has a small W2A exhanger (with a fan) that cools the water before returning to the tank?
Do you have any pictures of it and where its mounted.
I asked before, anyone ever try direct contact injection if liquid Co2 into the A2W tank to keep the temp down. It could be hooked up and controlled like a nitrous system under WOT?
Anybody make a A2A that has an internal coil that nitrous or liquid Co2 runs in to bring the temp below ambient temps?or a seperate exchanger mounted in series with the A2A.
That's correct. I believe MM probably has the best pictures of the A2W setup. I'll check to see what I have though.
The idea is the tank is in the battery bay with the pump mounted below that to send cold water to the IC in a 1" hose. Then the hose goes from the IC into the heat exchanger with a 800-1000CFM 10" fan on that and it sits right behind the TA front plate cover for good air flow. Then the hose returns the water to the tank.
Something like the Flex-a-lite 49501 works fine for the heat exchanger task. http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku I upgraded my fan from a 800cfm to a 1000cfm one that I had laying around from a transmission cooler that I had just because I had it laying around anyway.
The CO2 or NOS cooling really isn't needed for either setups. Using a good meth kit for cooling will help take the edge off even when you want to run C16 for those hot July Norwalk passes.
Rick
9 Second Club
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 985
Likes: 7
From: Lake Orion, MI
Rick
9 Second Club
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 985
Likes: 7
From: Lake Orion, MI
Ray,
I'm having a problem finding my pics but here's a shot of the full kit. The A2W setups is the left side of the Race Kit picture at the middle of this page. So it shows the hoses, pump, pump, tank, IC and heat exchanger with the fan.
http://www.turbotechnologyinc.com/site/?page_id=113
The tank goes where the battery does. The IC goes in the front driverside in front of the wheel well and the IC sits in the TA plate cover mounted to the front bumper.
Adding MM's pics too which are nice: http://home.comcast.net/~deezuns/LS1_RACE.htm
Rick
I'm having a problem finding my pics but here's a shot of the full kit. The A2W setups is the left side of the Race Kit picture at the middle of this page. So it shows the hoses, pump, pump, tank, IC and heat exchanger with the fan.
http://www.turbotechnologyinc.com/site/?page_id=113
The tank goes where the battery does. The IC goes in the front driverside in front of the wheel well and the IC sits in the TA plate cover mounted to the front bumper.
Adding MM's pics too which are nice: http://home.comcast.net/~deezuns/LS1_RACE.htm
Rick
Last edited by 2001-WS6; Dec 10, 2008 at 04:38 PM.
Somehow you have more experience with my setup than I do because you are able to tell me everything about it... too bad it's not true. My car is just a street car that is driven everywhere and I have already said it hovers all of 15-20 over ambient in 115 Phoenix heat when repeatedly beating on it. That's quite the opposite of a disadvantage on the street. You claim your A2A is only ever 10 deg over ambient, I'm calling BS right there. I have NEVER seen an A2A not raise at least 25-30 degrees over an entire pull and that's with a very large core. Hell most are more than that. You will NEVER have an A2A setup capable of this level of efficiency with as little pressure drop as an A2W provides, period. But what do I know, I only have both setups on both of my cars.
Last edited by otherwhitemeat; Dec 10, 2008 at 07:39 PM.
They could be lighter but the A2W vs A2A certainly isn't enough of a weight savings on these setups when compared to the fact we run these times with full stock interior, stock front wheels and tires.
It's been done with with simple LS1, LS2 builds to get me down to a 9.4s on 94 octane pump gas with meth and a stock PCM at this weight. Both cars show up on the same drag radials that they drive on street when they go to the store for a beer or when I drop the kids off at school. No need to change any tunes or files between the street and the track for us to run these times on baby Mototron injectors too.
Rick
It's been done with with simple LS1, LS2 builds to get me down to a 9.4s on 94 octane pump gas with meth and a stock PCM at this weight. Both cars show up on the same drag radials that they drive on street when they go to the store for a beer or when I drop the kids off at school. No need to change any tunes or files between the street and the track for us to run these times on baby Mototron injectors too.
Rick
The point you seem to fail to understand is that with a T4 flange limitation he's at the bigest turbo that fits in our spot. So at some point, you have to maximize the air to ring every last bit out of it. A2A won't ever get you as far as A2W when you get to the point of maxing out a turbo in a full weight street car. We don't need ice for the one pass that it takes to win or most likely the best of three if someone feels the need.
Rick
Rick
my ebay air to air keeps temps at 3-4 over while cruising on the highway but rises 30-40 degrees on a track pass. that is running 12 psi....at 20psi i bet it would climb to at least 70 over ambient. the meth will generally drop it 30-40 so i net a 0-40 gain.
A2w should do better than a2a...i was just too broke to get the setup for a2w
A2w should do better than a2a...i was just too broke to get the setup for a2w
my ebay air to air keeps temps at 3-4 over while cruising on the highway but rises 30-40 degrees on a track pass. that is running 12 psi....at 20psi i bet it would climb to at least 70 over ambient. the meth will generally drop it 30-40 so i net a 0-40 gain.
A2w should do better than a2a...i was just too broke to get the setup for a2w
A2w should do better than a2a...i was just too broke to get the setup for a2w
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nice size core man. For a true street car i vote a2a just because its so simple and maintenace free(pple dont like maintenance especially after how much work some guys have to do to their cars on a weekly basis). Air to water would be nice but not for a "simple" setup like a budget minded turbo LS1 with an A2A. With a nice A2W setup, i agree, you would be able to cool it down alot with ice etc but that probably gets old quick espeically if you're beating it around town or "having tests runs that are simulated on mexican streets"...this thread's point has almost been beaten to death and all good points for both sides have been made already....choose your destiny with either/or...it comes down to preference mostly and what you are comfortable with putting in your particular setup/car. Only upside i see to an A2W on my setup would be keeping my fog lights on my Trans Am....which is a gay and useless point but whatever to each his own....im out before i get **** thrown at me lol 
Launching!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
From: Northern Chicago
A Talon is a little bit tougher because of the tight spaces involved. Once an F-body guy concedes that they don't need AC and moves the battery back to the trunk, space becomes available for better combos relative to the power being discussed. Toss in Meth and life gets even better.
Launching!
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
From: Northern Chicago
Dump the junk china bay core and get a Garrett core. And make sure it's sized properly for the power you are making.
water is a better thermal conductor than air period.
room temp. water will conduct heat away better than room temp. air period
water system is heavier more complicated and more expensive. ALSO works better all scenarios outside of roadcourse where the water cannot cool down quick enough.
room temp. water will conduct heat away better than room temp. air period
water system is heavier more complicated and more expensive. ALSO works better all scenarios outside of roadcourse where the water cannot cool down quick enough.
also if done a certain way the tank hoses pump etc can be removed for non dragstrip activity to remove the clutter / weight
nah...i am only looking for .25 et more. Ill save my money and keep my china/meth and let you big dogs run the cool stuff
I use a Bell A2A core that's 23"Wx4.5"Dx6"H, with 34 vertical hot air channels and is rated 2074cfm. I have also surrounded my A2A with sheetmetal ducting to force all the air that comes through the hole in my bumper to move through the core. On a 1-mile run from a stop, my IAT only climbs 15-20 degrees, then drops to within 3-5 degrees of ambient in less than a eighth mile after I let off. I agree with otherwhitemeat - most A2A setups are either stingy on the core size or don't have great and controlled airflow, or both.
People always cite the fact that water absorbs heat 14 times faster than air. That's great for the charge side. But no one ever talks about how it make the heat shedding side 14 times slower to transition the heat back into the air. I see a couple people post that their water stays constant in temperature - they're the lucky ones and I don't know how they do it.
But in Corky Bell's books, he basically says that, with the one exception of ice-water drag racing applications, a properly sized A2A with good air throughput is the simplest, lightest and most effective way to go on a street or road racer.
Some people, it seems especially the Aussie crowd, have experimented with dry ice/salt water or dry ice/alcohol combos for the drag strip and gotten some amazingly low IAT numbers, and the coolant seems to last longer. But I haven't seen anyone doing a serious A2W with an auxilary coolant system like CO2, except the air conditioning thing someone already mentioned.
Jim
People always cite the fact that water absorbs heat 14 times faster than air. That's great for the charge side. But no one ever talks about how it make the heat shedding side 14 times slower to transition the heat back into the air. I see a couple people post that their water stays constant in temperature - they're the lucky ones and I don't know how they do it.
But in Corky Bell's books, he basically says that, with the one exception of ice-water drag racing applications, a properly sized A2A with good air throughput is the simplest, lightest and most effective way to go on a street or road racer.
Some people, it seems especially the Aussie crowd, have experimented with dry ice/salt water or dry ice/alcohol combos for the drag strip and gotten some amazingly low IAT numbers, and the coolant seems to last longer. But I haven't seen anyone doing a serious A2W with an auxilary coolant system like CO2, except the air conditioning thing someone already mentioned.
Jim
I was playing with my car tonight and logged some IAT's. My setup is a dual Bell core a2W, a 7.6Gallon tank mounted in the rear hatch, filled with 50/50 water/antifreeze, and a Ron Davis 03-04 Cobra Heat exchanger (it is pretty big), and a Mezeire 136 pump.
It was 70* outside tonight, after sitting and heat soaking the underhood, IAT's were 125*, within 50-100 feet they dropped to 85*. Never got above 90* No real high speeds were reached, but boost was logged around 8 psi with 10.8 max. I checked the tank when I got back, the water was not warm at all. You could feel a little warmth coming out of the turbo into the IC, but everything else was cool to the touch.
On the street, this setup is going to work great, any air going over that heat exchanger knocks the temp down immediately.
At the track with ice, will be the perfect.
Does it add weight? Yes. Is the piping complex? No, the IC is V-banded right to the compressor outlet, about 3.5 feet of pipe to the TB.
With the right components that I chose, this a great street/strip setup.
It was 70* outside tonight, after sitting and heat soaking the underhood, IAT's were 125*, within 50-100 feet they dropped to 85*. Never got above 90* No real high speeds were reached, but boost was logged around 8 psi with 10.8 max. I checked the tank when I got back, the water was not warm at all. You could feel a little warmth coming out of the turbo into the IC, but everything else was cool to the touch.
On the street, this setup is going to work great, any air going over that heat exchanger knocks the temp down immediately.
At the track with ice, will be the perfect.
Does it add weight? Yes. Is the piping complex? No, the IC is V-banded right to the compressor outlet, about 3.5 feet of pipe to the TB.
With the right components that I chose, this a great street/strip setup.
I was playing with my car tonight and logged some IAT's. My setup is a dual Bell core a2W, a 7.6Gallon tank mounted in the rear hatch, filled with 50/50 water/antifreeze, and a Ron Davis 03-04 Cobra Heat exchanger (it is pretty big), and a Mezeire 136 pump.
It was 70* outside tonight, after sitting and heat soaking the underhood, IAT's were 125*, within 50-100 feet they dropped to 85*. Never got above 90* No real high speeds were reached, but boost was logged around 8 psi with 10.8 max. I checked the tank when I got back, the water was not warm at all. You could feel a little warmth coming out of the turbo into the IC, but everything else was cool to the touch.
On the street, this setup is going to work great, any air going over that heat exchanger knocks the temp down immediately.
At the track with ice, will be the perfect.
Does it add weight? Yes. Is the piping complex? No, the IC is V-banded right to the compressor outlet, about 3.5 feet of pipe to the TB.
With the right components that I chose, this a great street/strip setup.
It was 70* outside tonight, after sitting and heat soaking the underhood, IAT's were 125*, within 50-100 feet they dropped to 85*. Never got above 90* No real high speeds were reached, but boost was logged around 8 psi with 10.8 max. I checked the tank when I got back, the water was not warm at all. You could feel a little warmth coming out of the turbo into the IC, but everything else was cool to the touch.
On the street, this setup is going to work great, any air going over that heat exchanger knocks the temp down immediately.
At the track with ice, will be the perfect.
Does it add weight? Yes. Is the piping complex? No, the IC is V-banded right to the compressor outlet, about 3.5 feet of pipe to the TB.
With the right components that I chose, this a great street/strip setup.
9 Second Club
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 985
Likes: 7
From: Lake Orion, MI
Did you run a heat exchanger with your A2W setup?
Rick
This is gay bickering back and forth......
MM has opened my eyes.
Ill be keeping the new A2W setup on my car and driving it everywhere....
You guys can keep your street racing storys...... Ill just send ya lots of lube and tissues when ya go to jail.......
Im passed all of that now and just want to enjoy it when i can, where ever i can....
Kyle
MM has opened my eyes.
Ill be keeping the new A2W setup on my car and driving it everywhere....
You guys can keep your street racing storys...... Ill just send ya lots of lube and tissues when ya go to jail.......
Im passed all of that now and just want to enjoy it when i can, where ever i can....
Kyle
9 Second Club
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 985
Likes: 7
From: Lake Orion, MI
Rick
Last edited by 2001-WS6; Dec 11, 2008 at 02:56 AM.