Automatic vs. 6spd in the 1000 rwhp range
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Aug 2004
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Automatic vs. 6spd in the 1000 rwhp range We all know the auto at the track is more consistent and faster than the 6spd.
Now on the street from a 60 to 160 mph roll, two similar Turbo set up cars, both with 1000 rwhp , and both with traction.
Does the AUTO car has an advantage because it does not lose time shifting thru the gears, and can keep Boost pegged throughout the pull, or does the 6spd do to the better gearing in the trans., and less drop off during shifts has the advantage?
If the Auto has the advantage, how much power does the 6spd. need to run as fast?
Again, both cars Turbo, 1000 rwhp, and hooking.
thanks!
Now on the street from a 60 to 160 mph roll, two similar Turbo set up cars, both with 1000 rwhp , and both with traction.
Does the AUTO car has an advantage because it does not lose time shifting thru the gears, and can keep Boost pegged throughout the pull, or does the 6spd do to the better gearing in the trans., and less drop off during shifts has the advantage?
If the Auto has the advantage, how much power does the 6spd. need to run as fast?
Again, both cars Turbo, 1000 rwhp, and hooking.
thanks!
Aut has higher driveline loss and then you have torque converter slippage. Six speeds don't keep the turbo spooled up that great between shifts but you can use no lift to shift on the gas basically powershifting. I would think thought that the auto car would need 5% or so more hp to make up for its higher drivetrain losses.
TECH Fanatic
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,218
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From: MI
Gearing in an auto is all made up by converter slip.....I'm not sure how high you can get in the MPH with a 3 or 4 speed auto safely...I know a lot of overdrives won't take it. And if you're planning on making it up there with 3 gears you'd better have one hell of a high ratio in the rearend, which will make your acceleration suffer.
I think the race would go like this....
Auto car sprints many bus lengths again from the start up to around 145-150 mph. The six speed lags way behind because of loss of traction, and losing boost. If you go to 170 mph then the 6 speed will go there....the auto depending on the gearing won't go much higher than 150-160.
there are to many variables to come up with a conclusion. weight aerodynamics at that speed. if your running a dog box in the stick, converter ratio, rear ends, lifting/no lifting. there are some guys with sticks that can shift pretty damn fast! especially if its a dog box.
if both cars are equal in every aspect except the trans, i would expect the auto to get the hit but maybe fall of on the top. if its a dog box with a good clutch? the stick car right after the hit.
if both cars are equal in every aspect except the trans, i would expect the auto to get the hit but maybe fall of on the top. if its a dog box with a good clutch? the stick car right after the hit.
FormerVendor
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,444
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From: WWW.SPEEDINC.COM
If we're talking highway I have always destroyed auto cars with a 6-speed. This always came down to traction however as every high hp auto car I've been up against has a lot of trouble getting any traction from a 60 roll.
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Acceleration does not suffer much with the right converter. A turbo car with an auto and a good converter is always in the power band and never drops boost.
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what are all these shifts? Its two shifts.....In a 6 speed car, have a two step, go against the 2 step, build boost, leave in 2nd.....shift to third with out lifting(two step) then shift the second time to 4th.....two shifts.
I know when I raced zombiess car (only to 130-135) in a 6 speed vette, I was behind down low, and slowly gaining as we went faster. The entire race was maybe a 4 foot gain on him and I still lost. If we raced to 160 I probably would have been ahead.. He was making more power but also heavier.
This is all fantasy anyways, as the op said assume traction. Thats a dream, 600-700 rwhp spins um good at 90+ mph most of the time. The 6 speed gets stupid on the 2-3 shift at 90 and the auto gets stupid too.....so this is a bad argument and can not be solved.
I know when I raced zombiess car (only to 130-135) in a 6 speed vette, I was behind down low, and slowly gaining as we went faster. The entire race was maybe a 4 foot gain on him and I still lost. If we raced to 160 I probably would have been ahead.. He was making more power but also heavier.
This is all fantasy anyways, as the op said assume traction. Thats a dream, 600-700 rwhp spins um good at 90+ mph most of the time. The 6 speed gets stupid on the 2-3 shift at 90 and the auto gets stupid too.....so this is a bad argument and can not be solved.
Hey if you have an extra 5k $ go with the 6 speed. Actually its probably 2x that. Figure youll break atleast one trans(the good ones are 2500-3500) and atleast one clutch a year. And then labor if your not doing it yourself.
9 Second Club
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,192
Likes: 243
From: IL
We all know the auto at the track is more consistent and faster than the 6spd.
Now on the street from a 60 to 160 mph roll, two similar Turbo set up cars, both with 1000 rwhp , and both with traction.
Does the AUTO car has an advantage because it does not lose time shifting thru the gears, and can keep Boost pegged throughout the pull, or does the 6spd do to the better gearing in the trans., and less drop off during shifts has the advantage?
If the Auto has the advantage, how much power does the 6spd. need to run as fast?
Again, both cars Turbo, 1000 rwhp, and hooking.
thanks!
Now on the street from a 60 to 160 mph roll, two similar Turbo set up cars, both with 1000 rwhp , and both with traction.
Does the AUTO car has an advantage because it does not lose time shifting thru the gears, and can keep Boost pegged throughout the pull, or does the 6spd do to the better gearing in the trans., and less drop off during shifts has the advantage?
If the Auto has the advantage, how much power does the 6spd. need to run as fast?
Again, both cars Turbo, 1000 rwhp, and hooking.
thanks!
Sean
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 590
Likes: 0
From: Scottsdale, AZ
I would think the 6-speed from a roll based purely on gearing. Having the extra gear that the auto doesn't makes a big difference from a roll.
Auto will be faster. Trying to put a 1000RWHP down with a 6 speed is tough For the 1/4 track auto for sure but I DD my Car sick HP plus 6speed still gets me 21 mpg
On the Street I can spin them all over the place in 3th. 4th gear is tough if the road its just paved but after a few rains
On the Street I can spin them all over the place in 3th. 4th gear is tough if the road its just paved but after a few rains
I'm out of gear at 130-135 with a 26" tall tire and 3.73's so an auto car is not running much above that unless they go in OD.
Ignorant statement. Try hooking up a 700+ RWHP car from a dig on the street without prep (if you're going to use prep, do it at the track).
Ignorant statement. Try hooking up a 700+ RWHP car from a dig on the street without prep (if you're going to use prep, do it at the track).
Auto car sprints many bus lengths again from the start up to around 145-150 mph. The six speed lags way behind because of loss of traction, and losing boost. If you go to 170 mph then the 6 speed will go there....the auto depending on the gearing won't go much higher than 150-160.
^^^ i dont agree.
"six speed lags cause of loss of traction" so autos dont spin? a 5000 stall in a auto is alot like a 5000 clutch drop with a stick if you know how to preload everything. at 1000 horse both will have launch problems with out the prefect set up. but we are talking about a 60 roll not a 0 launch. so this has no bearing on the subject. and if it did. i know a pretty good stick driver that can luanch good
"losing boost" ever heard of no lift shift? i can shift my car pretty damn fast. i wouldnt lift i would just stay in it. also the make boost controls that really help with this stuff.
Yea, the problem is traction.....power shifting a 700 hp 6 speed car with a 2 step sends it sideways on anything less then a perfect road, and I dont see many perfect roads, based on all the black stripes I ve painted.
I d also like to know why a 1000 rwhp would have 3.73's? What now the auto is a 4l60? LOL taht would cost atleast as much as the six speed parts.
I d also like to know why a 1000 rwhp would have 3.73's? What now the auto is a 4l60? LOL taht would cost atleast as much as the six speed parts.
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Aug 2004
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The Supra guys do a lot of 60-130 mph data logging. I was talking to one of the guys over there that organizes a lot of these type of events. when comparing an auto Supra to a 6spd Supr while BOTH have the SAME Acceleration under Load (shown graphically), the 6spd run 60-130 mph in 4.5, while the Auot did it in 3.9 sec.
The difference in Time was the tow upshifts required for the 6spd. Supra.
I think traction, and power being the same the Auto even from a roll has to be quicker because it does not have to wste time shifting.
What would you say the 6spd would need at the tires to make up the difference?
100 rwhp?
The difference in Time was the tow upshifts required for the 6spd. Supra.
I think traction, and power being the same the Auto even from a roll has to be quicker because it does not have to wste time shifting.
What would you say the 6spd would need at the tires to make up the difference?
100 rwhp?
FormerVendor
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,444
Likes: 2
From: WWW.SPEEDINC.COM
The Supra guys do a lot of 60-130 mph data logging. I was talking to one of the guys over there that organizes a lot of these type of events. when comparing an auto Supra to a 6spd Supr while BOTH have the SAME Acceleration under Load (shown graphically), the 6spd run 60-130 mph in 4.5, while the Auot did it in 3.9 sec.
The difference in Time was the tow upshifts required for the 6spd. Supra.
I think traction, and power being the same the Auto even from a roll has to be quicker because it does not have to wste time shifting.
What would you say the 6spd would need at the tires to make up the difference?
100 rwhp?
The difference in Time was the tow upshifts required for the 6spd. Supra.
I think traction, and power being the same the Auto even from a roll has to be quicker because it does not have to wste time shifting.
What would you say the 6spd would need at the tires to make up the difference?
100 rwhp?
Might be a bit different if both cars started at a steady 60mph.
