Which Head Unit for 700+rwhp?
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 610
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From: Redondo Beach, CA
Originally Posted by Trojan T/A
The both the F1 and YS-trims have a strong following and good results. I dont think I will need something that flows 2000 as 1700 is already way more than can be handled on the street. I still kinda want to try the Novi since the mustang guys do well with it, and it can be ordered in reverse rotation to mount it
InvisibleSun - Yep, that's where the name comes from.
InvisibleSun - Yep, that's where the name comes from.
For Vince I have maxed out the D-1SC in my application with no belt slipage. It made 10 lbs of boost and that was as far as it was going.
This is on a C5-R block, Long tube headers, opened up LS6 Heads.
This was a real world test on an engine dyno. This was with a 7.70 crank pulley and a 3.40 blower pulley. Going to a 3.20 pulley would not do anything but cause belt slipage. So unless you were going to use a chain drive, and the cog setup is great for about 3000 miles or less. This is all it would make within the given RPM limits of the head unit.
Hope this helps all your testing efforts
This is on a C5-R block, Long tube headers, opened up LS6 Heads.
This was a real world test on an engine dyno. This was with a 7.70 crank pulley and a 3.40 blower pulley. Going to a 3.20 pulley would not do anything but cause belt slipage. So unless you were going to use a chain drive, and the cog setup is great for about 3000 miles or less. This is all it would make within the given RPM limits of the head unit.
Hope this helps all your testing efforts
Originally Posted by Bryan Wilkinson
I have maxed out the D-1SC in my application with no belt slipage. It made 10 lbs of boost and that was as far as it was going.
This is on a C5-R block, Long tube headers, opened up LS6 Heads.
This was a real world test on an engine dyno. This was with a 7.70 crank pulley and a 3.40 blower pulley. Going to a 3.20 pulley would not do anything but cause belt slipage. So unless you were going to use a chain drive, and the cog setup is great for about 3000 miles or less. This is all it would make within the given RPM limits of the head unit.
Hope this helps all your testing efforts
This is on a C5-R block, Long tube headers, opened up LS6 Heads.
This was a real world test on an engine dyno. This was with a 7.70 crank pulley and a 3.40 blower pulley. Going to a 3.20 pulley would not do anything but cause belt slipage. So unless you were going to use a chain drive, and the cog setup is great for about 3000 miles or less. This is all it would make within the given RPM limits of the head unit.
Hope this helps all your testing efforts
Cogged setup would have made more power with the D1SC but I'm sure that's pushing and maybe overspinning it.
Invisible, the C5R block is 3 times stronger than a production LS1l/LS6 block. No Darton combo will be stronger than a C5R block, I have talked to the company that makes the C5R blocks.
Invisible, the C5R block is 3 times stronger than a production LS1l/LS6 block. No Darton combo will be stronger than a C5R block, I have talked to the company that makes the C5R blocks.
D-1sc
Originally Posted by VINCE
Did you max out the blower or did you max out what you could use before the belt would slip? Speed Inc was using a 400ci plus block and they were seeing over 10lbs of boost and produced a lot more horsepower. I remember them saying that maxed out the fuels system. Not the blower.
The amount of boost that is showing would depend on how efficient their motor was. If CFM is constantly increasing then it would appear to me that there was no slipage and if it was is was very minimal.
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Verdad Gallardo TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2002
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From: Redondo Beach, CA
Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
Invisible, the C5R block is 3 times stronger than a production LS1l/LS6 block. No Darton combo will be stronger than a C5R block, I have talked to the company that makes the C5R blocks.
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 408
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From: Houston TX (Chicago/Evanston IL)
Speed Inc made 20 lbs of boost and 700 RWHP. Maybe your cam was bleeding off to much boost. Whats the Overlap at .050?
Well Guys I'll let you know if it can be done with a d1sc in a few weeks. Ill have my car up and running.
Placing bets now. I think the twin intercooler set up is a bigger bottle neck at the 700rwhp mark than the head unit. -20% of 925 hp (what the d1sc is rated at) is 740 RWHP. My car is a manual with under driven acc. and a lite weight flywheel. I figure 20% drive train loss is what my aplication will loose on the way to the wheels. I have one of the better 8 rib set ups I have seen. I was making 15 lbs on our pre Accel gen 7 passes before we decided I was going to need it to control my 83# inj. We maxed out my 57# at 1/2 throtte by 4500rpm's. Mod Mustangs are making 750 RWHP with a D1, why cant we?
Well Guys I'll let you know if it can be done with a d1sc in a few weeks. Ill have my car up and running.
Placing bets now. I think the twin intercooler set up is a bigger bottle neck at the 700rwhp mark than the head unit. -20% of 925 hp (what the d1sc is rated at) is 740 RWHP. My car is a manual with under driven acc. and a lite weight flywheel. I figure 20% drive train loss is what my aplication will loose on the way to the wheels. I have one of the better 8 rib set ups I have seen. I was making 15 lbs on our pre Accel gen 7 passes before we decided I was going to need it to control my 83# inj. We maxed out my 57# at 1/2 throtte by 4500rpm's. Mod Mustangs are making 750 RWHP with a D1, why cant we?
Last edited by Evil Turbo SS; Dec 14, 2003 at 01:08 AM.
Strength of C5-R block
Originally Posted by InvisibleSun
I don't doubt that the C5R block is 3x stronger than a stock block, and I'm sure the people who make the C5R block will tell you that they are stronger than the Darton blocks, just as the people who make the Darton blocks will tell you that the Darton blocks are stronger then the C5R blocks. The only way we we ever REALLY know is when enoght of the Darton blocks are are out there running as long and as strong as the C5R blocks are and have been running. As of know, the C5R blocks are the strongest tested blocks out there.
Sir, You need to get a clue. Please do not post stuff for which you know absoluetly nothing about.
The Stock LS1/LS6 Block is made from 6061 Aluminum heat treated to T6 standards, The C5-R racing block is made from 356A Aluminum heat treated to T7 Standards. The C5-R block is 100% stronger than the Stock LS1/LS6 block. This may also explain the difference in the price of a LS6 Block of $1200 and a C5-R block of $6200.
The Darton Sleeve is nice, however, there have been several cases where the sleeves have cracked due to heat stress. I have personally spoken to the gentleman that works in the Darton Machine Shop. That is why the sleeve was redesigned. To try and resovle this problem.
GM designed the 7.0 race block because the Stock LS1/LS6 block when resleeved was not strong enough for their race applications.
Everything that I have said here is 100% verifiable through GM Racing, Pratt and Miller Racing, and Katech Engines.
This seems to be an ongoing problem with people and their postings. Please get all of your facts straight before making comments like the one you made.
Let's not go off on a huge tangent but everything that Bryan posted is 100% accurate. The block itself goes thru a hardening process and it's already that special alloy.
Gordon, I agree, I think that the twin small intercoolers could be a restriction at some point but let's see what you can pull.
Gordon, I agree, I think that the twin small intercoolers could be a restriction at some point but let's see what you can pull.
CamSpecs
Originally Posted by Evil Turbo SS
Speed Inc made 20 lbs of boost and 700 RWHP. Maybe your cam was bleeding off to much boost. Whats the Overlap at .050?
Well Guys I'll let you know if it can be done with a d1sc in a few weeks. Ill have my car up and running.
Placing bets now. I think the twin intercooler set up is a bigger bottle neck at the 700rwhp mark than the head unit. -20% of 925 hp (what the d1sc is rated at) is 740 RWHP. My car is a manual with under driven acc. and a lite weight flywheel. I figure 20% drive train loss is what my aplication will loose on the way to the wheels. I have one of the better 8 rib set ups I have seen. I was making 15 lbs on our pre Accel gen 7 passes before we decided I was going to need it to control my 83# inj. We maxed out my 57# at 1/2 throtte by 4500rpm's. Mod Mustangs are making 750 RWHP with a D1, why cant we?
Well Guys I'll let you know if it can be done with a d1sc in a few weeks. Ill have my car up and running.
Placing bets now. I think the twin intercooler set up is a bigger bottle neck at the 700rwhp mark than the head unit. -20% of 925 hp (what the d1sc is rated at) is 740 RWHP. My car is a manual with under driven acc. and a lite weight flywheel. I figure 20% drive train loss is what my aplication will loose on the way to the wheels. I have one of the better 8 rib set ups I have seen. I was making 15 lbs on our pre Accel gen 7 passes before we decided I was going to need it to control my 83# inj. We maxed out my 57# at 1/2 throtte by 4500rpm's. Mod Mustangs are making 750 RWHP with a D1, why cant we?
Cam is 232/240 .600 .600 115LS
TECH Regular
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 408
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From: Houston TX (Chicago/Evanston IL)
Originally Posted by Bryan Wilkinson
Cam is 232/240 .600 .600 115LS
This thread is going in the exact direction I wanted it to - lots of tech and hypothetical, with the inclusion of real world testing.
My biggest flaw with the ATI kit is what Evil Turbo SS mentioned - small twin intercoolers. I dont know their max flow, but those along with all of the piping in the kit allow too much boost to be bled off and to drop the actual cfm seen at the engine.
I also agree that Bryan didnt max out the supercharger, but just found the limit to his tensioner and pulley setup. With a new crank pulley and a better tensioning setup he could easily see more power.
But with these D1-SC real-world results, it seems 700 rwhp is not a problem as long as the setup is very, very good; but I still dont think it will get near 800.
I am curious about this block debate. I understand that the C5R block is structurally stronger than a resleeved block, but are the sleeves as strong? Also, how many people have had a stock aluminum block fail? I know the stock block can handle 600+ rwhp no problem just as the crank can. Therefore, at what HP level is the added strength of the C5R block worth the extra money over a standard block?
Keep the results coming and the theorizing interesting.
My biggest flaw with the ATI kit is what Evil Turbo SS mentioned - small twin intercoolers. I dont know their max flow, but those along with all of the piping in the kit allow too much boost to be bled off and to drop the actual cfm seen at the engine.
I also agree that Bryan didnt max out the supercharger, but just found the limit to his tensioner and pulley setup. With a new crank pulley and a better tensioning setup he could easily see more power.
But with these D1-SC real-world results, it seems 700 rwhp is not a problem as long as the setup is very, very good; but I still dont think it will get near 800.
I am curious about this block debate. I understand that the C5R block is structurally stronger than a resleeved block, but are the sleeves as strong? Also, how many people have had a stock aluminum block fail? I know the stock block can handle 600+ rwhp no problem just as the crank can. Therefore, at what HP level is the added strength of the C5R block worth the extra money over a standard block?
Keep the results coming and the theorizing interesting.
TECH Regular
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 408
Likes: 0
From: Houston TX (Chicago/Evanston IL)
If I cant get to my goal what should I try first... A front mount of an f1? the f1 trade will cost less money but then we will not be able to get a final word on the d1sc Q's.
The Iron block is the better way to go. A decent amount stronger than the al. block and not 6 grand. I thought the weak point was the bulk heads?
The Iron block is the better way to go. A decent amount stronger than the al. block and not 6 grand. I thought the weak point was the bulk heads?
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
From: Redondo Beach, CA
Originally Posted by Bryan Wilkinson
Sir, You need to get a clue. Please do not post stuff for which you know absoluetly nothing about.
The Stock LS1/LS6 Block is made from 6061 Aluminum heat treated to T6 standards, The C5-R racing block is made from 356A Aluminum heat treated to T7 Standards. The C5-R block is 100% stronger than the Stock LS1/LS6 block. This may also explain the difference in the price of a LS6 Block of $1200 and a C5-R block of $6200.
The Darton Sleeve is nice, however, there have been several cases where the sleeves have cracked due to heat stress. I have personally spoken to the gentleman that works in the Darton Machine Shop. That is why the sleeve was redesigned. To try and resovle this problem.
GM designed the 7.0 race block because the Stock LS1/LS6 block when resleeved was not strong enough for their race applications.
Everything that I have said here is 100% verifiable through GM Racing, Pratt and Miller Racing, and Katech Engines.
This seems to be an ongoing problem with people and their postings. Please get all of your facts straight before making comments like the one you made.
The Stock LS1/LS6 Block is made from 6061 Aluminum heat treated to T6 standards, The C5-R racing block is made from 356A Aluminum heat treated to T7 Standards. The C5-R block is 100% stronger than the Stock LS1/LS6 block. This may also explain the difference in the price of a LS6 Block of $1200 and a C5-R block of $6200.
The Darton Sleeve is nice, however, there have been several cases where the sleeves have cracked due to heat stress. I have personally spoken to the gentleman that works in the Darton Machine Shop. That is why the sleeve was redesigned. To try and resovle this problem.
GM designed the 7.0 race block because the Stock LS1/LS6 block when resleeved was not strong enough for their race applications.
Everything that I have said here is 100% verifiable through GM Racing, Pratt and Miller Racing, and Katech Engines.
This seems to be an ongoing problem with people and their postings. Please get all of your facts straight before making comments like the one you made.
Originally Posted by InvisibleSun
Please tell me what factual lies I am spreading? I actually agree with you that the C5R is stronger and I said so in my post. All I am saying is that the new revised wet sleeved Darton designs may prove to be as strong as the C5R blocks. That was not a fact, merely my opinion and from the posts and info I have been reading on this board, I am not alone in this opinion. I'm sorry if my post was misleading in any way, that was not my intent and it's too bad you had to resort to insults, which I also feel is an ongoing problem with people and their postings.
True, True
Pulley Question
Originally Posted by Trojan T/A
This thread is going in the exact direction I wanted it to - lots of tech and hypothetical, with the inclusion of real world testing.
My biggest flaw with the ATI kit is what Evil Turbo SS mentioned - small twin intercoolers. I dont know their max flow, but those along with all of the piping in the kit allow too much boost to be bled off and to drop the actual cfm seen at the engine.
I also agree that Bryan didnt max out the supercharger, but just found the limit to his tensioner and pulley setup. With a new crank pulley and a better tensioning setup he could easily see more power.
But with these D1-SC real-world results, it seems 700 rwhp is not a problem as long as the setup is very, very good; but I still dont think it will get near 800.
I am curious about this block debate. I understand that the C5R block is structurally stronger than a resleeved block, but are the sleeves as strong? Also, how many people have had a stock aluminum block fail? I know the stock block can handle 600+ rwhp no problem just as the crank can. Therefore, at what HP level is the added strength of the C5R block worth the extra money over a standard block?
Keep the results coming and the theorizing interesting.
My biggest flaw with the ATI kit is what Evil Turbo SS mentioned - small twin intercoolers. I dont know their max flow, but those along with all of the piping in the kit allow too much boost to be bled off and to drop the actual cfm seen at the engine.
I also agree that Bryan didnt max out the supercharger, but just found the limit to his tensioner and pulley setup. With a new crank pulley and a better tensioning setup he could easily see more power.
But with these D1-SC real-world results, it seems 700 rwhp is not a problem as long as the setup is very, very good; but I still dont think it will get near 800.
I am curious about this block debate. I understand that the C5R block is structurally stronger than a resleeved block, but are the sleeves as strong? Also, how many people have had a stock aluminum block fail? I know the stock block can handle 600+ rwhp no problem just as the crank can. Therefore, at what HP level is the added strength of the C5R block worth the extra money over a standard block?
Keep the results coming and the theorizing interesting.
F1 blower with intercoolers
Originally Posted by Evil Turbo SS
If I cant get to my goal what should I try first... A front mount of an f1? the f1 trade will cost less money but then we will not be able to get a final word on the d1sc Q's.
The Iron block is the better way to go. A decent amount stronger than the al. block and not 6 grand. I thought the weak point was the bulk heads?
The Iron block is the better way to go. A decent amount stronger than the al. block and not 6 grand. I thought the weak point was the bulk heads?
When I sold my D1SC, the intercoolers went with it, I am going with a single Spearco up front behind the license plate and I am going with Aluminum plumbing. I have a fear that the rubber plumbin gives too much and is a heat soaker.
Any Thoughts.
Bryan