Which Head Unit for 700+rwhp?
Apology
Originally Posted by InvisibleSun
Please tell me what factual lies I am spreading? I actually agree with you that the C5R is stronger and I said so in my post. All I am saying is that the new revised wet sleeved Darton designs may prove to be as strong as the C5R blocks. That was not a fact, merely my opinion and from the posts and info I have been reading on this board, I am not alone in this opinion. I'm sorry if my post was misleading in any way, that was not my intent and it's too bad you had to resort to insults, which I also feel is an ongoing problem with people and their postings.
More research has provided that we may never find the theroretical limits of either block, but there is a problem with the resleeved blocks overheating and there have been 3 cases where the sleeving didn't take and they came out. It just sounds like to me that this is more of an expermental thing than something that should be used in production. If using IRON doesn't bother you, buy the 6.0 Liter IRON LS1/Vortec block. It can be had for about $900.00. I didn't want to have any possibilities of any problems so I bought the best that there was.
Bryan
TECH Enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 610
Likes: 0
From: Redondo Beach, CA
Originally Posted by Bryan Wilkinson
Sir, You are right, I take it back. It was uncalled for. Please accept my apology.
More research has provided that we may never find the theroretical limits of either block, but there is a problem with the resleeved blocks overheating and there have been 3 cases where the sleeving didn't take and they came out. It just sounds like to me that this is more of an expermental thing than something that should be used in production. If using IRON doesn't bother you, buy the 6.0 Liter IRON LS1/Vortec block. It can be had for about $900.00. I didn't want to have any possibilities of any problems so I bought the best that there was.
Bryan
More research has provided that we may never find the theroretical limits of either block, but there is a problem with the resleeved blocks overheating and there have been 3 cases where the sleeving didn't take and they came out. It just sounds like to me that this is more of an expermental thing than something that should be used in production. If using IRON doesn't bother you, buy the 6.0 Liter IRON LS1/Vortec block. It can be had for about $900.00. I didn't want to have any possibilities of any problems so I bought the best that there was.
Bryan
Trojan T/A - Here is a good thread on the new Darton wet sleeves:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/showthrea...ghlight=darton
The designers of the system give some great info...
Gordon, Scottie has been running a F1 with the D1 twin intercoolers and he has them maxed out. He has an A3 going 133-134mph at 3700 raceweight.
If a person is buying stuff from scratch, and wanting 700rwhp, it's definitely worth buying the best head unit you can find that hits that power range without being massively overspun.
700rwhp on 91 octane might be:
400-427ci, 8:1
15 lb blower setup - F1, YS Trim, Novi 2000
FAST or DFI ECU system
83 lb injectors and complete fuel system
I'm not sure a 348ci + boost can hit 700rwhp on 91 octane, I will say that I think it would be hard.
If a person is buying stuff from scratch, and wanting 700rwhp, it's definitely worth buying the best head unit you can find that hits that power range without being massively overspun.
700rwhp on 91 octane might be:
400-427ci, 8:1
15 lb blower setup - F1, YS Trim, Novi 2000
FAST or DFI ECU system
83 lb injectors and complete fuel system
I'm not sure a 348ci + boost can hit 700rwhp on 91 octane, I will say that I think it would be hard.
PSJ-
I would expect a LOT more than 700rwhp with the combo you mentioned. My LT1 (inferior head wise to an LS1) made nearly 660rwhp on 12psi, with only 383ci. pump fuel.
Anyhow, If 700rwhp is your MAX goal, I would go with a t-trim. you will probably get close to that figure, but have MUCH better low end boost for street driving. a YS -trim at only 13-14psi will be much more lazy down low. YS trim is more suited for cars wanting to see 800+.
Spinnin a t-trim hard will get you good low end boost, and close to your power goals. Vortechs are known for their rock solid engineering, and can handle abuse.
I would expect a LOT more than 700rwhp with the combo you mentioned. My LT1 (inferior head wise to an LS1) made nearly 660rwhp on 12psi, with only 383ci. pump fuel.
Anyhow, If 700rwhp is your MAX goal, I would go with a t-trim. you will probably get close to that figure, but have MUCH better low end boost for street driving. a YS -trim at only 13-14psi will be much more lazy down low. YS trim is more suited for cars wanting to see 800+.
Spinnin a t-trim hard will get you good low end boost, and close to your power goals. Vortechs are known for their rock solid engineering, and can handle abuse.
True, a T Trim is rated for 825 (crank) hp.
Jordan, hitting 700rwhp on 91 octane sounds like a bit of a challenge to me. A 383ci + 15 psi might get there too sure I was more playing to the combos being thrown out earlier in this thread.
I think a 8:1 348ci motor + 15 lbs might get to 700rwhp.
Jordan, hitting 700rwhp on 91 octane sounds like a bit of a challenge to me. A 383ci + 15 psi might get there too sure I was more playing to the combos being thrown out earlier in this thread.
I think a 8:1 348ci motor + 15 lbs might get to 700rwhp.
Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
True, a T Trim is rated for 825 (crank) hp.
Jordan, hitting 700rwhp on 91 octane sounds like a bit of a challenge to me. A 383ci + 15 psi might get there too sure I was more playing to the combos being thrown out earlier in this thread.
I think a 8:1 348ci motor + 15 lbs might get to 700rwhp.
Jordan, hitting 700rwhp on 91 octane sounds like a bit of a challenge to me. A 383ci + 15 psi might get there too sure I was more playing to the combos being thrown out earlier in this thread.
I think a 8:1 348ci motor + 15 lbs might get to 700rwhp.
825hp, =~ 717rwhp (assumin a manual, 13% loss)
Not to mention that is at max effciency, not what you can REALLY make out of it. people are making 650 with a S-trim!
I am expecting 700+ with 15psi/pump gas on my motor. I would think with an LS motor's heads, you would see at least another 80rwhp at the same boost.. maybe more. my motor "NA" probably only makes 380.
We can't compare NA output of a LT1 382ci and a 348ci LS1. You have to be making 30-50 more ft lbs of torque.
I was trying to guesstimate how much NA power I make, and I'd guess 350rwhp/380rwtq thru my T400.
I was trying to guesstimate how much NA power I make, and I'd guess 350rwhp/380rwtq thru my T400.
My reason for thinking it would be easier PSJ was that Mike at MMS has made several heads/cam vettes get into the 640rwhp range with around 10-11lbs of boost on a D1SC. However, I have also heard those engines dont last long due to too agressive tuning for 91 octane and the street.
As you stated, finding the right head unit is the best first step in looking for more power. The kits are good but only to a certain level.
BTW, what kind of fuel system are we looking at here. I understand 83lb injectors, but what about the fuel pump, and are billet fuel rails and a pressure regulator all part of the system as well?
As you stated, finding the right head unit is the best first step in looking for more power. The kits are good but only to a certain level.
BTW, what kind of fuel system are we looking at here. I understand 83lb injectors, but what about the fuel pump, and are billet fuel rails and a pressure regulator all part of the system as well?
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TECH Regular
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 408
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From: Houston TX (Chicago/Evanston IL)
I am running 83 lb/hr injectors, billet fuel rails, FP regulator, -10 fuel line and twin intank walbro fuel pumps. This will be tuned thru a GEN & DFI. I have the fuel system and tuning.
I am running:
83 lb Siemens injectors
SS Racing Billet fuel rails
Weldon FP regulator
-10 to the front, -8 crossover, -6 return
Weldon 2025 externa pump
FAST ECU system
Other way to tune without getting an aftermarket ECU would be to tune in speed density and get a Pro-M MAF. Or try to max out a set of 57lb injectors and try to tune with the the MAF working.
83 lb Siemens injectors
SS Racing Billet fuel rails
Weldon FP regulator
-10 to the front, -8 crossover, -6 return
Weldon 2025 externa pump
FAST ECU system
Other way to tune without getting an aftermarket ECU would be to tune in speed density and get a Pro-M MAF. Or try to max out a set of 57lb injectors and try to tune with the the MAF working.
Originally Posted by Pro Stock John
I am running:
83 lb Siemens injectors
SS Racing Billet fuel rails
Weldon FP regulator
-10 to the front, -8 crossover, -6 return
Weldon 2025 externa pump
FAST ECU system
Other way to tune without getting an aftermarket ECU would be to tune in speed density and get a Pro-M MAF. Or try to max out a set of 57lb injectors and try to tune with the the MAF working.
83 lb Siemens injectors
SS Racing Billet fuel rails
Weldon FP regulator
-10 to the front, -8 crossover, -6 return
Weldon 2025 externa pump
FAST ECU system
Other way to tune without getting an aftermarket ECU would be to tune in speed density and get a Pro-M MAF. Or try to max out a set of 57lb injectors and try to tune with the the MAF working.
Pro-M MAF? What is this.
83 lb injectors are nice, however, in NC to pass inspection the inspectors have to be able to run an ODB II test, which means xnay on the aftermarket computer. I have to make this work with the Siemens 57#'s and the stock computer, I am running Aeromotive 1000 fuel pump, -10 feed -12 return, but none of that matters. It is all about the injector and the fuel pressure. You could have garen hose for fuel lines and it would not make any difference.
Bryan,
Basically when pushing the stock pcm you have some issues:
-run out of injector choices
-stock MAF gets pegged
-leaded gas kills 02 sensors
Pro-M sells custom MAFs: http://pro-flow.com/
Ask for Scott Beers and mention our site. He owes me a phone call.
Basically when pushing the stock pcm you have some issues:
-run out of injector choices
-stock MAF gets pegged
-leaded gas kills 02 sensors
Pro-M sells custom MAFs: http://pro-flow.com/
Ask for Scott Beers and mention our site. He owes me a phone call.
Cam Overlap
Originally Posted by Evil Turbo SS
Whats the overlap @ .050 You may have a cam that is bleeding off boost. You should be able to make 15#s even with that motor w/ a D1sc. look at the cam card.
Adkoonerstrator
iTrader: (4)
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 21,420
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From: Deep in the seedy underworld of Koonerville
Bryan - Why don't you run an impedance converter and low impedance injectors? You could go a little bigger on the injector and the stock computer should handle it fine. I'd say you could probably get away with 65#(43.5psi test pressure) low-z injectors with no problems and 75# low-z injectors with some idle tuning. 
Check this page out for an impedance converter.
http://www.ls1speed.com/catagory.cfm?catagory=fuel
Those 57#ers may do 900hp N/A but, not with boost. That would be pushing it I think.
Check this page out for an impedance converter.
http://www.ls1speed.com/catagory.cfm?catagory=fuel
Those 57#ers may do 900hp N/A but, not with boost. That would be pushing it I think.
Fuel Problem Solved Spoke with RC Engineering today. They will have on Jan 15th a 72# high impedence injector making this level at only 43psi. I would only have to run the injector at 91% duty cycle according to Aeromotive. After speaking with Aeromotive today that in conjunction with the aeromotive 1000 fuel pump will make 620 lbs of fuel per hour. For 850 HP at the fly wheel with 10 lbs of boost with the Procharger F1, Aeromotive says I only need 535 lbs of Fuel per hour. The 57 Lb injectors only will give me 517 lbs of fuel per hour. These in conjuction with my -10 feed and -12 return I am good to go. Injectors are $95.00 each. This also means my 57# injectors are now on sell. First come first serve with best price.
THIS TRANSLATES TO: I CAN USE MY STOCK LS1 COMPUTER AND MAKE THAT HORSEPOWER. FUEL PROBLEM IS SOLVED
THIS TRANSLATES TO: I CAN USE MY STOCK LS1 COMPUTER AND MAKE THAT HORSEPOWER. FUEL PROBLEM IS SOLVED