Mass Air location on Turbo setup
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From: orlando, florida
The closer to the throttle body it is the better the throttle responce is. I`ve had better luck with my blow through started out as a draw through but changed it because of poor throttle responce. if you have a system that is efficent and flows well i think a draw through is a better setup becase you don`t risk getting oil on the MAF.
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From: Bridgewater,Ma
Now the fun,this system also has a BOV in it..I would think it would run rich when opened.
Also I would think that oil on the MAF shouldn't happen.A new Turbo shouldn't leak for awhile I would think.
Also I would think that oil on the MAF shouldn't happen.A new Turbo shouldn't leak for awhile I would think.
On The Tree
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From: Charlestown, Indiana
Check out this thread:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/124085-some-comparison-questions-turbo-kits.html
And by the way, I've had the MAF in both places. Responsiveness is EXACTLY the same when tuned properly. Anyone who has driven, or rode in one of our turbo cars will tell you that being responsive is NOT an issue. No bog, no hesitation, just tirespin.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-induction/124085-some-comparison-questions-turbo-kits.html
And by the way, I've had the MAF in both places. Responsiveness is EXACTLY the same when tuned properly. Anyone who has driven, or rode in one of our turbo cars will tell you that being responsive is NOT an issue. No bog, no hesitation, just tirespin.
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From: Bridgewater,Ma
Yes,I've read that thread before..The MAF does work on the incoming side,but I do not agree with putting it there.Case in point.If I tune a turbo car today in 15 degree weather,11-1 A/F. and have the MAF and air temp reading incoming air it can make a big difference when it see's 80 degree weather.I would suspect the A/F will be leaner and can not take as much timing..I would feel safer putting the MAF and IAT in the incoming air stream and use the IAT as a timing retard if the incoming air gets too hot(from traffic,whatever).
Supercharged (Procharger)cars do very good with MAF's in the air stream and Radix Blowers use the IAT as a timing retard.
Another thing,what happens if you blow the discharge pipe off the turbo?I would figure the car would run like crap with the MAF before the turbo,but run fine if the MAF was up the air stream.
I'm just going by my GN here.Factory it is before the turbo,but when you move them before the TB the response/tunability and drivability are much improved.
Supercharged (Procharger)cars do very good with MAF's in the air stream and Radix Blowers use the IAT as a timing retard.
Another thing,what happens if you blow the discharge pipe off the turbo?I would figure the car would run like crap with the MAF before the turbo,but run fine if the MAF was up the air stream.
I'm just going by my GN here.Factory it is before the turbo,but when you move them before the TB the response/tunability and drivability are much improved.
On The Tree
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From: Charlestown, Indiana
Okay, do it any way you want. But if that was an issue, why do you think that GM did it that way with the Buicks and gave a Factory Warranty??
And by the way, I've personally owned and raced 6 Turbo Buicks. I've been in the Turbo Buick community since 1986. I do not know one single person who has ever moved their MAF in front of the throttlebody. Secondly, since when was the response of a Buick ever considered "slow"?
We've proven that the placement of the MAF pre-turbo works. Just as GM, Mitsubishi, Eagle, Ford and Chrysler have all done. I've put over 100 dyno pulls and at least as many street runs on our 120,000 mile stock engine Formula with no problems ever. It sounds to me like you ask teh question, but you only want to hear answers that agree with your assessment. Not arguing, just my observation. So please don't take this the wrong way. I'm trying to help.
And by the way, I've personally owned and raced 6 Turbo Buicks. I've been in the Turbo Buick community since 1986. I do not know one single person who has ever moved their MAF in front of the throttlebody. Secondly, since when was the response of a Buick ever considered "slow"?
We've proven that the placement of the MAF pre-turbo works. Just as GM, Mitsubishi, Eagle, Ford and Chrysler have all done. I've put over 100 dyno pulls and at least as many street runs on our 120,000 mile stock engine Formula with no problems ever. It sounds to me like you ask teh question, but you only want to hear answers that agree with your assessment. Not arguing, just my observation. So please don't take this the wrong way. I'm trying to help.
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From: Bridgewater,Ma
Originally Posted by Rob Raymer
Okay, do it any way you want. But if that was an issue, why do you think that GM did it that way with the Buicks and gave a Factory Warranty??
And by the way, I've personally owned and raced 6 Turbo Buicks. I've been in the Turbo Buick community since 1986. I do not know one single person who has ever moved their MAF in front of the throttlebody. Secondly, since when was the response of a Buick ever considered "slow"?
We've proven that the placement of the MAF pre-turbo works. Just as GM, Mitsubishi, Eagle, Ford and Chrysler have all done. I've put over 100 dyno pulls and at least as many street runs on our 120,000 mile stock engine Formula with no problems ever. It sounds to me like you ask teh question, but you only want to hear answers that agree with your assessment. Not arguing, just my observation. So please don't take this the wrong way. I'm trying to help.
And by the way, I've personally owned and raced 6 Turbo Buicks. I've been in the Turbo Buick community since 1986. I do not know one single person who has ever moved their MAF in front of the throttlebody. Secondly, since when was the response of a Buick ever considered "slow"?
We've proven that the placement of the MAF pre-turbo works. Just as GM, Mitsubishi, Eagle, Ford and Chrysler have all done. I've put over 100 dyno pulls and at least as many street runs on our 120,000 mile stock engine Formula with no problems ever. It sounds to me like you ask teh question, but you only want to hear answers that agree with your assessment. Not arguing, just my observation. So please don't take this the wrong way. I'm trying to help.
The way it works:
I bring up what I think and give my reason..
The person replying gives there way and why..
Can't believe the way you put a point across
[edit]Keep it civil[/edit]
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GN MAF's are very good at dealing with reversion.
F-body MAF's read really well backwards. If you run without a bypass on a draw-through, and have the MAF close to the turbo inlet you can run into flame out situations on heavy drop throttle.
They both work.
F-body MAF's read really well backwards. If you run without a bypass on a draw-through, and have the MAF close to the turbo inlet you can run into flame out situations on heavy drop throttle.
They both work.
i've had good luck with both placements as far as response and stability.. it may just come down to the tuner and what they have personally had sucess with.
it all comes out in the wash at wide open when you go to the edge of knock in either situation... but all else aside if i had a maf on the new set up it would be blow through.
it all comes out in the wash at wide open when you go to the edge of knock in either situation... but all else aside if i had a maf on the new set up it would be blow through.
On The Tree
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Charlestown, Indiana
Originally Posted by Slowhawk
There is no reason to jump at me.I see you do this all the time to people.
The way it works:
I bring up what I think and give my reason..
The person replying gives there way and why..
Can't believe the way you put a point across
[edit]Keep it civil[/edit]
The way it works:
I bring up what I think and give my reason..
The person replying gives there way and why..
Can't believe the way you put a point across
[edit]Keep it civil[/edit]
I resent the fact that you say I "do this to people all the time". I don't do anything to people. I give my experience, FREE, and that's it. If you don't like what I have to say, then I will stay out of it.
When I talked to Transdamit, he said you were going to be tuning the car tomorrow evening. I will be on the road then, but I told him I would call from my mobile and assist you guys in the tuning. I guess there's no point now in me calling. It sounds like you don't need/want my "advice".
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From: Bellevue, Wa
If they don't want to listen that's there problem, not yours. I would not stress over it. I know I appreciate the info you provide on the boards so keep it coming.
All the FI cars I have owned or dealt with I do draw thru.
No issues. Works very well for me.
All the FI cars I have owned or dealt with I do draw thru.
No issues. Works very well for me.
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From: Bridgewater,Ma
Has nothing to do with what I wanted..The car ran like complete *** and I was sick of tuning out potential ductwork problems,so I garrentied the movement of the MA would atleast get us in the right direction.Have you seen L-terms go from -28 to +45 while cruising?(no throttle input at all?)I got the car running good then we were set for athe night till the dyno.On his way home he really got onto it and the car began to run like a complete bag again..
I'm waiting for what he finds wrong.I'm suspecting his tubing is loose,cut or the blowoff valve is leaking.He is doing all the mechanic part since he want's it that way.
So for me to suggest to move the MAF is not wrong since it will bypass any leak problems for now and get the car at least drivable...
I take all the advise on these boards,but not the ones like you put up.I would never respond to someones post the way you did.I have enough respect to PM the person.
Good Day..
I'm waiting for what he finds wrong.I'm suspecting his tubing is loose,cut or the blowoff valve is leaking.He is doing all the mechanic part since he want's it that way.
So for me to suggest to move the MAF is not wrong since it will bypass any leak problems for now and get the car at least drivable...
I take all the advise on these boards,but not the ones like you put up.I would never respond to someones post the way you did.I have enough respect to PM the person.
Good Day..
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From: Deep in the seedy underworld of Koonerville
The pull through setup is nice because you can hook the PCV stuff up just like stock. The way it has to be in a blow through setup the computer reads the PCV air as extra and that must be tuned for.
I had a Procharger on my car which uses the blow through setup. I switched it to pull through though because of the PCV and resulting Ltrim problems. It worked great with the pull through setup. I did hit something in the road one day that pulled a pressurised hose lose. The car ran VERY bad for a few seconds from what I'm assuming was a VERY rich condition since the metered air was no longer making it to the motor but, the fuel for it was. I think it must've switched over to speed density mode after those few seconds because the car picked right back up and ran fine until I made it to work.
The Ltrims seemed a little jumpy in the blow through setup but, I think that may have been because of the MAF placement. There was a hump right before the MAF where the hose goes over the radiator support. I think that was cause air flow problems through the MAF.
Just make sure you have the screen in the MAF wherever you put it.
I had a Procharger on my car which uses the blow through setup. I switched it to pull through though because of the PCV and resulting Ltrim problems. It worked great with the pull through setup. I did hit something in the road one day that pulled a pressurised hose lose. The car ran VERY bad for a few seconds from what I'm assuming was a VERY rich condition since the metered air was no longer making it to the motor but, the fuel for it was. I think it must've switched over to speed density mode after those few seconds because the car picked right back up and ran fine until I made it to work.
The Ltrims seemed a little jumpy in the blow through setup but, I think that may have been because of the MAF placement. There was a hump right before the MAF where the hose goes over the radiator support. I think that was cause air flow problems through the MAF.
Just make sure you have the screen in the MAF wherever you put it.
On The Tree
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From: Charlestown, Indiana
Slowhawk, I've read, and re-read my post. I just don't see where I was being the a$$ you say I was. I think you took it wrong. And I also think that when someone thinks something should be one way, but it's another, that can cause them problems. i.e. The L-trims are off, so since the MAF is not where you think it should be, then the MAF is automatically the culprit. (not saying that's the case, just a for instance)
That's why I said "do it your way"....since you seem to think you have a handle on tuning it as a blow-thru. That's all. I meant nothing more, despite what you think.
And that's the other problem with posting things and people "reading into them". It's the old thing where you put the emphasis on a different word, and the sentence completely changes meaning.
I also understand you spent a lot of time tuning it with Autotap? You REALLY need to tune it with a Wideband on a Dyno, not Autotap in a driveway. But that's just my opinion.
That's why I said "do it your way"....since you seem to think you have a handle on tuning it as a blow-thru. That's all. I meant nothing more, despite what you think.
And that's the other problem with posting things and people "reading into them". It's the old thing where you put the emphasis on a different word, and the sentence completely changes meaning.
I also understand you spent a lot of time tuning it with Autotap? You REALLY need to tune it with a Wideband on a Dyno, not Autotap in a driveway. But that's just my opinion.
On The Tree
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From: Charlestown, Indiana
FWIW, Ed has tuned at least 10 of these kits by remote with the MAF where we put it. As far as I am aware, nobody has had any idle, response, or any other problems. So it really sounds to me like it's simply a tuning issue. (provided there are no IC leaks anywhere)
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From: Bridgewater,Ma
So far 1 02 was blown out.I tune all the cars I do for drivability before it hit's the dyno.I'm not doing WOT blasts down the road.Just simple driving.
The main problem I see with hitting a dyno first thing is that you tune it in,then when you drive down the street the fuel trims start compensating to give drivability.This will affect all your dyno tuning A/F ratio's.
I'm not blaming where the MAF is as being the problem,just wanted to try it in the other spot to see if there are changes...I am getting aliitle aggravated with this tune due to that I would prefer to have the car to check over and find the problem that's not letting me tune it.There should be nothing holding back the car from just cruising down the street.
From what I see on the 02 side of thing's still baffles me.Pass side 02 is good in the crossover pipe,but the other 02 is in the downpipe?That to me ,eams that the driver side 02 is measuring both banks of exhaust? That was also the 02 that was dead..
The main problem I see with hitting a dyno first thing is that you tune it in,then when you drive down the street the fuel trims start compensating to give drivability.This will affect all your dyno tuning A/F ratio's.
I'm not blaming where the MAF is as being the problem,just wanted to try it in the other spot to see if there are changes...I am getting aliitle aggravated with this tune due to that I would prefer to have the car to check over and find the problem that's not letting me tune it.There should be nothing holding back the car from just cruising down the street.
From what I see on the 02 side of thing's still baffles me.Pass side 02 is good in the crossover pipe,but the other 02 is in the downpipe?That to me ,eams that the driver side 02 is measuring both banks of exhaust? That was also the 02 that was dead..