Shenlon

iTrader: (4)

So, I've recently been looking at possibly building up my beloved 2001 WS6 to make some real HP. So far I basically just have an MTI lid and some other free mods, no real performance enhancers. When trying to come up with what I wanted to do with the vehicle, I came across a few questions that I didn't really have good answers for and was hoping for some good discussion here.

Goals:
>~80% of stock driveability. I'm willing to make a few sacrifices, but I really want extremely good street manners, since I very rarely race this vehicle and it's never been to the track. That may change in the future though.

HP/TQ - This is really what I'm looking for opinions on. IMO the numbers are more of a guideline than anything, but they're the easiest way to quantify power and can at least give me a round about idea of what to shoot for

Decent MPG. I'm not expecting super mileage, but I don't want to have to fill up every 150 miles either.


I will not be gutting anything out of the car to drop weight and may end up adding some audio equipment. I would also like to be able to have a conversation without having to shout or deal with drone and rattles.

Since this is still in the very early planning stages of the build, I'm exploring as many different avenues as possible and would like to hear both the super as well as turbo arguments, even though I've read through dozens of old threads about them, I've found that things change as technology progresses and the standing advice from yesteryear may no longer be valid. I am approximately 98% sure that this will be a FI build, hence why this was posted here and not in the Internal Engine forum, so I'd like to steer away from a H/C package.

Questions that I would like answered:

Where does the ridiculous line get drawn for deployable RWHP/TQ as far as street driving goes? I have no intentions of putting a roll cage or anything like that in, so serious track duty is out. I may go once or twice to see how the car performs, but don't plan to do it frequently.

Turbocharger adjustability - can anyone give me a really good lowdown on just how much can be fiddled with once the system is installed? I really don't have any current desire to rebuild my LS1 or replace it with a forged bottom end, so I'm not talking insane levels of boost, but I'd like to know what can be adjusted to keep the drive as docile as possible while still being able to rip it up when I want to.

Can someone tell me whether this quick list of turbo vs supercharger pros and cons is pretty accurate? Anything to add?

Supercharger pros

• less piping therefore "easier" install
• progressive boost for better traction at launch
• cheaper (debatable?)

Turbo pros

• much more tuning can be done to fit the application
• better useable power (area under the curve)
• much higher peak power possibilities
• adjustable without having to lift the hood
• better mileage due to lower parasitic drain loss prior to boost

Super cons

• limited adjustability
• less area under the curve
• higher parasitic loss due to belt driven nature

Turbo cons

• more fabrication required
• more parts required
• more expensive
• more time required for install

Thanks in advance, I realize this is a very vague post with lots of questions that I'm hoping will spark some good discussion/debate. I also realize a lot of this has been hashed over before, but I don't think anyone really wants me to start bringing up multiple year old threads to address the questions I have within those threads. I tried to include enough information to show that I am not just posting because I'm being lazy and not searching, but maybe I failed.

**EDIT**
Car is a 2001 WS6 M6

98Z28CobraKiller

iTrader: (17)

Some short answers to narrow it down.

Staying within your stock bottom, driveability, weight and sound constraints, your max RELIABLE power setup will not exceed the limits of what can be applied on the street. Somewhere in the 650-700 rwhp range. Many supporting mods will be required to make it work.

I think that given the sound and fueling constraints, turbo is the only way to get there. Assuming that you want to keep the A/C, that will add complexity (=cost) to the kit.

A single good 76-78mm T4 with a big back housing will get you there. Bunches of build threads that you can copy or get ideas from.

GhostofKrypton

iTrader: (7)

From what it seems like you are describing, I would recomend a procharger. I believe that with a procharger, you will have your stock reliability, and to keep everything stock I.E A\C then this is your best bet. Yes you can do this with a turbo setup, but not for as cheap as a procharger. Supporting mods will be as expensive either way, Fuel system and exhaust. Power goals both will put you where you want, but a stock Ls1 will not handle much past 550. I helped with a procharger on my cousins mustang, and it is great for the street and the cruises he goes on, but he rarely takes it to the track. I am building a turbo for my car, because I like to race and not just cruise. Plus after riding in my friends turbo the procharger just seemed to tame. Just my 2 cents

Shenlon

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for 2 quick responses! I forgot to mention in my first post that I fully plan on doing all the supporting mods and not just trying to slap a kit on the car and roll. Before I look at any serious power adder, I'll be doing a 9" rear and possibly a little bit more suspension work because tires are way too expensive to just roast them trying to go fast. Obviously the fuel system upgrades would be installed at the same time as adding the system.

98Z - Is there a significant bonus (other than less piping) to a single turbo over a twin setup?

ZL1Killa

iTrader: (17)

bottom line if you are keeping the stock engine, 7psi max. get a good pcv breathing setup, vent both valve covers.

There are turbo & supercharging kits that will both NOT be noisy, however you will hear a supercharger at least somewhat (there are quiet-er ones than others).

Be careful on suspension work. and drive line wise, if you don't want noise, do not get a chassis mount torque arm.

keeping the bottom end, a 67mm or 70mm turbo with a .81 or .9x AR ratio will do you good and at 7psi or even 5psi you can make around 500rwhp and something of that nature torque.

prices for turbo & supercharger kits, I feel they are near the same price.
routing & parts and etc, I would have to say turbo kits have more pieces to them.

twin kits means you have twice the feed lines & drain lines;

a nice AC kept front mount kit is do-able and if you wrap the exhaust can be quite a nice kit. Always, always put in at least $500 more than what you think for your budget, its always a safe bet. And if you end up having that or more than that left over; buy some beer.

Shenlon

iTrader: (4)

I'm not afraid of noise, I mean these are muscle cars, not luxury sedans. I just don't want something that's screaming or rattling/banging pipes which I guess is more of an install issue than going with super or turbo charger.

I have been looking at torque arms quite a bit, but haven't really been able to determine for sure which would be the best way to go. Currently, I'm leaning towards a fabbed MWC 9" but luckily its easy to swap out fictional parts .

Thanks everyone for their input so far.

ZL1Killa - how far from Raleigh are you?

Bob@BruteSpeed

iTrader: (16)

https://www.brutespeed.com/prochargers.htm
I have a lot of info on ProChargers at the above link that may help you out.

https://www.brutespeed.com/rear_end_information.htm
Info on Moser rears can be found at this link. Bob

ZL1Killa

iTrader: (17)

I'm in charlotte right now, but I drive through raleigh when I go see my parents in wilson (~30 min from Raleigh). I was on HPJunkies forums if you have heard of them.

crf538

iTrader: (3)

im with cobrakiller on this one, get a turbo. ive had dealing with prochargers and they just aren't as much fun as turbos on the street. go with at least 76mm or your going to want an upgrade quickly, and if you or any friends have welding/fab ability you can use truck or stock f body manifolds and do it pretty cheep, prolly cheaper than the procharger.

as far as keeping it to 7 psi i think it has a lot to do with the tune, ive had 14 pounds on a bone stock motor (except valvesprings/pushrods) and never had a problem on pump gas and meth. there's no telling what a real tuner (aka FROST) could get away with.

as long as your willing to drive around with a bfg or mickey thomson drag radial all the time id say 600 whp is pretty manageable on the street.

id do something like this

twin walboros
60 lb injectors
otherwise stock fuel system
precision 76mm
tial 44 wastegate
ALKYCONTROL meth
patroit valve springs
pushrods
-10 psi
that ought to get you there
GOOD LUCK

blue00ZZleeper

iTrader: (5)

Either a procharger or a 78mm turbo sound good for your goals. As said once you go past 550 you start rolling the dice a little more. Methanol will take you waay closer to your goals and make it a little safer as well. I plan on running a little more on my stock motor once my forged motor is done just to see what she can do. I suggest twin walbro pumps, 60lb injectors, good fuel pressure reg, matching cam to your method of FI, valve springs, 317 heads (lower comp a touch). Either a D1 or a 78mm will take you where you want to go and both will have much room to grow (a little more on the turbo side though) Keep in mind i've been making close to 600 for 2 years now and shes my DD with over 104K on her clock lol and I'm not nice to her in the least bit. Be prepared to spend good money to set her up properly....and even more money to maintain her lol

kikass_z28

manual or auto trans?

CarsandWomen

iTrader: (19)

based on your goals the 9" is overkill. the 12 bolt is cheaper, lighter, and puts more horsepower to the ground while still being capable of 4 digit whp numbers.

Shenlon

iTrader: (4)

Lots of great responses, thanks! Methanol is something I haven't looked into because to be 100% honest I'm a bit intimidated by it and just haven't really decided that I need to do that. I'm sure I'll probably end up researching that too. How much of a hassle is it to setup/maintain (methanol)? I also thought methanol injection was more of a drag thing, which I am not really planning on.

Also, for those of you that claim a turbo is "more fun" is there any way you could quantify that a bit more? I've driven turbo'd cars, but not a supercharger and I haven't even ridden in a turbo'd or super'd LS1, so trying to decide is pretty difficult based on people's own opinions without any way for me to relate. I appreciate the opinion, but if you could put some more words into trying to describe what the "fun" is exactly I would greatly appreciate it.

I agree that I think the 9" is a bit of overkill, but the 9" will support more in the future if I decide to eventually upgrade and build the bottom up and/or change cams/heads etc. I was also under the impression that the price difference was not very dramatic and if it's a couple hundred bucks extra on a $3k+ part, I'll stick to the overkill.

**EDIT**
Car is an M6

offroadfury6

iTrader: (8)

-I've driven turbo and S/C'd cars...my favorite is the S/C'er, man nothing beats that "whine" comming from under the hood, constint boost and reliable. no need to wait for you to gain boost on a S/C'er like a turbo spooling...

-But from what you describe Forced Induction isan't your only way to go for a street manner'ed built car...IF I were you, I would just do a Head, Cam build...I'm not sure but I would like to think for forced inducted car you would have to upgrade a few parts anyways....Stay N/A man...you can get great street manners out of it and still have an awesome/powerful build....I'm staying N/A myself...

just get a aftermarket lid, ported TB, LS6 intake mani, chromoly PR's, Cam it, LS6 heads or some ported ones, ported oil pump, alil bigger fuel injectors and Tune that Mother-Lover....

Wayyyyy cheaper than going Forced Inducted and she should have some nice street manners

BTW is it a T/A or camaro M6?

ZL1Killa

iTrader: (17)

a turbonetics tc72 or tc76 would do ya some good with a 0.81 ar and as far as 14psi on the stock motor...what was the compression left at? the factory or was it lowered with the addition of heads? were the heads studded?

Shenlon

iTrader: (4)

2001 WS6 only mod is a lid.

I was hoping to make over 500 RWHP but wasn't sure if that was "too much" hence the title for the thread. I also want room to grow if I decide to keep building the car down the road, and while heads/cam/tune may get me to 500 RWHP, it means that any time I want to change things to make more power I have to tear it all apart to make it happen. Originally I wanted to stay all N/A, but the more I look at things the more it seems like the extra $$ may be worth it to go for the big numbers/low times.

Photochop

iTrader: (74)

I would recommend a P1 or D1 procharger kit based on your wants and the fact that the car is an M6.

elias_799

iTrader: (8)

my car needed a fill up every 150miles at only 10psi and just under 500whp

you can not just burn air to make power

Shenlon

iTrader: (4)

You don't need to make tons of power to get from point A to point B. That was exactly what I was asking for, something that can still get around, but has the oomph to play with when I want to step on it.

MY99TAWS6

iTrader: (3)

Turbos are very driveable as are prochargers. I have ridden in and driven a few procharged cars. Both were near stock. The one procharged car went boom when he tightend his belt up after losing to a local NA ls1 car. The other procharged car was fine when guy sold it not sure what happened after that. Also been in an sts ls1 and sts lt1 car. Both were very near stock. The lt1 sts car went boom. The ls1 sts car is still around and the guy keeps it at 5psi. Very safe but its survived a few years.
Another local heads,cam ls1 car just got sts on it and think it went boom when guy bought a boost controller and think went up to 9psi.That one is high compression from the heads though.No forged inside parts.

So you can run your procharger or turbo on basically stock engine. But you better not get greedy and don't care how many guys on here say they run 10psi or more or whatever all day on their stock engines. I have seen several go boom and it was not at very high boost. And not all these guys were terrible tuners and some had sts tune or whatever in there.
You are on borrowed time with stock engine and FI. So if you do go that route plan on putting money aside for engine rebuild. Or plan on your car down for awhile.
I went straight to forged motor seen enough broken ringlands.
My build goals were pretty simple. I wanted a very streetable but very high hp car. Wanted 1000 engine hp thus my plate. That plate was my goal and was not ever meant to be 1000rwhp . Most people have no clue what rwhp is.

I went pretty tame. But very strong parts. Dana 60, heavy but very tough, 4l80e fully built also heavy but very tough. Wanted overdrive its a street car. Went to 3.54 gears they are fine off boost hate much lower numerical gears. Went to a pretty melllow cam ,barely noticeable lope. I kept my car pretty quiet and did nothing to drop weight.Its a heavy thing around 4000 me out is my guess. Will weigh it soon.
And put in good fuel support, etc. etc.

But have learned a few things off this board on how to do FI for cheap if you insist.
If you are going to stay stock stay low boost and low timing. Get good scanner and watch knock like a hawk. Don't get greedy.Its impossible to say how much boost is safe on stock engine.Its not really the boost its more the detonation and of course too much power can be hard on parts. Different power adders make very different power at same psi level. Its airflow not boost psi that determines power.

Anyway the recipe.
Stock cranks are strong. Rods are so so. A good build would be at least good rod bolts, rods,forged pistons. Go arp main studs,arp rod bolts, arp head studs. 317 heads are good for cheap and drop compression which is a good thing.
Run alc injection even 50/50 blue windshield washer fluid for extra safety.
Turbo 400 trans are strong .If you want to be good on highway go with like 3.08 gears.
4l80e are strong even stock form. 4l60 are weak. You need a good clutch if you are manual. Or you will go thru a lot of them.T56 are pretty strong.
Rear end well I actually drove me car with around 750 engine hp for season on stock 10 bolt. I didn't race the car and most important only ran nittos and had no traction till like top of third. So didn't really hurt the rearend. I also drove on the stock t56 with tex twin at around same 750 engine hp. Didn't hurt trans .

Fuel for 500 rwhp you can get buy with like an upgraded pump and 60 pound injectors.
Much above that twin pump like my setup is good thing. Big lines and rails not really needed till you get a lot higher up on power which you won't anyway on stock engine.

Tuning of course important and its important to have good monitoring ,of boost ,knock,wideband for afr,etc.
Tires well nittos work not bad to mabye 500 rwhp or bit more. Then to hook you really need to run things like et street radials. My toyos tq are not bad. they are my experiment this year. They aren't too bad in rain either. Et street radials are horrible in rain.Nittos are good in rain and can last longer than toyo or et streets but don't stick as good once the power starts really getting up there.

Turbos do have advantages in terms of ramping boost to help traction. With my boost controller I can ramp boost by rpm, time or gear. Supers like Procharger are not instant boost ,well they might be instant boost but they are not instant full boost. They ramp in boost by rpm. This can help traction sometimes.But turbos definitely have way more power under the curve .A proper turbo setup can have full spool by 3000rpm and carry it to redline.It can start building even under 3000 depending .

And turbos sound awesome to me . Nice jet sounds and like the blow offs too. I got pretty loud ones.

Now turbo kits well not so good for fourth gens . Single you have a few choices like TTi ?
and some of the sponsors have singles. And a few have twins too either out or coming out .Some are more custom though and big money. Or you can fab your own kit ,single is much easier to do. And sometimes you can find used kits of either turbos or procharger.

I would think long and hard on this and really decide if you can afford to buy an engine if you blow up your stock one. If not then NA is a good way to go. A good set of AFR heads, fast intake, decent cam ,headers, bolt ons can give mid 400rwhp and be very very reliable. And if you match the parts very driveable and streetable.

FI is very streetable too but better have deep pockets. Cheap and FI don't go well together. Things will break ,if you have weak links FI will find them.