I'm looking for supercharger flow maps that I can use on my site for plotting the engine air demand on the compressor map.

I've only been able to find a few Vortech maps. If you have any please PM me.

 

check out

http://www.slowcar.net/compressormaps/

for the few I have collected. ATI will not provide them - if you manage to find any for them please let me know (but I do not believe they exist, at least externally to ATI).

 

Does anybody know why this is? What is so secretive about a compressor map?

It makes me wonder if ATI is hiding something (rotating stall somwhere in the RPM), horribly inefficient compressors??

It is pretty common knowledge that getting a D1 to spin to its maximum RPM requires some significant engineering (no matter what the setup) and I have often wondered if ATI's refusal to release compressor maps and the D1's problems are linked.

It's not that hard to develop a compressor map. I will gladly donate (only for this experiment, naturally, I want it back) my head unit to anybody who has the equipment to develop compressor maps.

-Kevin

 

Kevin.. Hello again, to helped me out a little bit with Ls1 Edit over a year ago.. If I read your post correctly, you stated that the D-1SC has problems at max impeller rpms of 62.000. Did I read that correctly? I've got my P-1SC-1 and I'm spinning her to 65,000 impeller rpms at 6500 engine rpms. My 602 RWHP dyno graph is smooth and shows the P-1SC-1 to be a nice smooth little brother to the D-1SC and the F1 blowers.

I too wonder why ATI won't release their info...

clint

 

I don't think the blowers have trouble spinning at their rated max speed, but it VERY difficult to max out the D1 blower without some significant alterations to the drive system.

Just my observations. We have maxed out many P1 systems, but the D1 goes from 'the perfect blower' to a nightmare in the upper RPM.

 

Which is why I went with Vortech.

 

Are you serious?? NoGo What do you think goes wrong at the max impeller speed of a D-1SC?? The P1 and D1 are not that much different at all, with the Exducer being a little larger in the D-1SC, and Flow about 15% more than the P-1SC-1.. Let us know..

Clint

 

I'm curious about this too, I plan on pushing my D-1SC to the max with my COG pulley setup.......

 

I dumped my D1sc in favor of a F1.

 

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the D1 blower. I don't want to work myself into a hole here.

All I was saying is that it is very difficult to max out a D1 blower. Anybody who has one knows that the drive requirments and the efforts that have to be put into the belt system to stop it from slipping are substantial.

There is nothing wrong with the D1 blower. It just seems that the adiabadic losses of the blower are substantial. You have to put alot of HP into the turning system (read: slipping belts, snapping belts, etc...) to get a moderate flow of ~1400 CFM.

Again, there is nothing wrong with the D1. I have a D1 on my car. However, I only spin it to 55k. After all the trouble I have on other D1 setups I chose not to even bother with the hassle to max the thing out.

My personal opinion is that if you are going for a max effort system and shooting for flow requirements in excess of 1200 CFM (greater than 600 RWHP, where the P1 stops) I would just go right to the F1.

I'm not saying you can't max out the D1 blower. We have some people that have done it. It is just alot of work for a moderate amount of flow.

:flame suit on:

 

Well, this is my opinion, but I am *not* a D1 fan. I have seen too many problems with them (both the belt system mentioned above, but also leaking seals, crappy bearings, etc.). But again, this is just an opinion

I would agree though, if you want any kind of high power ATI based setup skip straight to the F1. They (ATI) seem to have fixed a bunch of the problems in those that plague the Dx series.

Other point to consider though - if you aren't going to give the D1 a workout, would you possibly be better with a Px series - a smaller blower should give boost sooner, which is always a nice thing.

Or just go with a nice S/T trim

 

Vortech Lover.. JK

OK.. I'm running the P-1SC-1, by far much better than the P-1SC with the Stright Cut Blade design. (Why ATI makes that Stright cut Impeller, makes no sence to me). I'm maxing out my P-1SC-1 to 65,000 k. I see no drop in HP or flow until Max impeller speed, When I dynoed 602 at the wheels that was at about 6400 engine rpms, At 6500 engine rpms, (max impeller speed) my HP started leveled off and as my engine rpms reached 6800 rpms the hp started to go down ever soo slightly.. So I take that as ATI stating their max impeller speeds, I don't see more flow, fine. Someone told me I'm seeing the limits of my 112LSA cam at that engine rpm. I've always thought a lower LSA means your increasing the powerband in rpm. So if a 115LSA cam say has a power band from 1,500 rpms to say 6,200, just guessing here. Then a 112LSA cam has a power band from 2200 to almost 7000 rpms. Again just guessing here, but I think I'm right. So that means to me once I reach max Blower impeller speed on my P-1SC-1 than it won't flow any more air.

NOGO I'm sure the drag on the belts for my P-1SC-1 is not much lower than the D-1SC. If I didn't have COGS, I would not be able to get my belt tight enough to make this HP. the D-1SC, I have always thought is not enough of a blower to warrant a 1000 dollar upgrade. The F1 is next on my list, for blowers that is..

ChrisB........

I agree with some of your statements. My blower has weeped a little oil out it self. Being self contained I'm sure pressure in there can get a little high. I just tightened down my hex bolts and the weeping stopped. I don't like the Aftercooler design of the Vortech systems. On the street I would think that the intake temps are higher than the ATI setup. Yes water to air is a better cooler, however in that small aftercooler, sitting ontop of a hot motor, I don't see how the air can get cooler. Plus you cant tell anyway, because Vortech put the IAT sensor in the stock (before the Blower) place. They could have and should have put the IAT sensor after the aftercooler. Some people have done it with good results. Stalker and Httm on the LS1.com board has done it. Httm ran his car at the track, he's got a T-trim, and he said at the end of the 1/4 mile his IAT's were reading like 160 deg F. Perhaps he could chime in about that.

that's all...

Clint

 

No arguments here about the aftercooler - I am not a big fan of that for a street setup - it definitely works, but I prefer the simplicity of an air/air setup (for the street, again). Plus you just might as well replace everything with hard tubing to prevent headaches. My suggestion would be a S/T-trim, aftermarket intercooler, custom tubing, and such. Do it right the first time . Of course a lot more fab work involved there, and if you aren't doing it yourself it will cost.

With respect to blower cfm and max flow rate/impeller speed, again, w/o a compressor map it is very difficult to tell - that is what you really need, but what apparently ATI is very secretive about. Their "published cfm ratings" seem a bit optimistic to me, but again, it's hard to tell.

I know with the s-trim it's pretty common to spin them 5-8k above max impeller rpm. You may not be flowing any more air mass at that level, but you will make boost sooner, and have more area under the curve....

 

Hugger your setup demonstrates my point exactly:

Your setup is probably pushing ~1200 CFM. The ATI system is about 80% efficient.

At 1200 CFM the approximate amount of HP that it *should* take to drive your blower:

Drive HP Ideal = boost * flow
Drive HP Ideal = 2016 lb/ft2 * 1000 ft3/min
Drive HP Ideal = 2016000 lb-ft/min
Drive HP Ideal = 33600 lb-ft/sec ......convert to sec
Drive HP Ideal = 61.09 HP .......convert lb-ft/sec to HP

Drive HP Actual = Drive HP Ideal / Drive Belt Eff. * Blower Adiabatic Eff.
Drive HP Actual = 61.09 HP / (0.97 * 0.60)

Drive HP Actual = 104.96 HP

A properly setup 6 rib setup will support drives up to ~90 HP.
A properly setup 8 rib setup will support drives up to ~140 HP.
A properly setup 10 rib setup will support drives up to ~160 HP.
A cog is recommended for anything over 150 HP.

To drive the P1 to it's maximum RPM you should EASILY be able to do with an 8 rib setup. Some might even be able to do it with a 6 rib setup. But you are using a COG to drive 1200 CFM.

And from your above statement:
"If I didn't have COGS, I would not be able to get my belt tight enough to make this HP"

From that statement we can either say that you prior belt setup wasn't adequate or that the drive requirements of your blower exceed the usual industry standards.

ie:
From your statement we will assume your drive requirements are around 130 HP. Just to give the P1 the benefit of the doubt. Working backwards:

Adiabatic Eff. = (Boost * Flow) / Drive HP * Belt Eff.
Adiabatic Eff. = 33600 ft-lb/sec / (71500 ft-lb/sec * 0.97)
Adiabatic Eff. = 0.48
Adiabatic Eff. = 48%


The above numbers smell like an overspun blower. A properly sized blower should be seeing adiabatic eff. in excess of 60%. Some centripital blowers, if properly sized will see efficiencies near 70%.

Again this is all just my opinion....... but we will never know because ATI will never release their compressor maps.

 

Kevin your the Man.... Thats all I need to say..

Nice math. You went over most peoples heads. I'll just trust you..

1 thing I will say. With the stock ATI 6 rib setup. After 7 to 8 psi of boost I was seeing belt slippage. I would retighten the belt, boost went back up, then fell off again. You say a properly setup 6 or 8 rib. ATI does not have that. The belt contact on the Blower pulley is about 60% of the pulley. Not enough IMO. I'm glad I went COGS.. When the F1 blower goes on, I'll be happier..

Clint