Maggie 112, valve float or out of blower ?
12-31-2012, 08:07 PM
#41
Some people just don't understand that when a blower is done, it's done. You can spin it as high as you want, and do all the motor mods in the world, but it's not going to move any more air.
So you're at 480rwhp, I bet doing every other bolt on mod only gets you to less than 520rwhp or less.
So you're at 480rwhp, I bet doing every other bolt on mod only gets you to less than 520rwhp or less.
12-31-2012, 09:41 PM
#42
Not sure what you are LOL about since I already proved 550 mark is EASILY attainable. Hell mine is right at 500 with worthless shorty headers, STOCK cam, STOCK heads, STOCK airbox and their horrible intercooler. I have gone to a 2.6 pulley since it was dynoed at the 480 and that is where I am getting the 500 from. Might evne be a tad higher as others have run over 500 with the same setup. Oh 91 octane to boot. I know another member making 520ish on stock cam as well and a 2.6 pulley. These are without even touching the TB . $20 heatercore mod and I dont even get heatsoak now which I proved with about 5 hot laps within 15 min period last time out to track.
As for cobras not so sure whats so impressive about that. Forged internals they can run a lot more boost. LSx are making these numbers with 8-10 PSI.
These blowers might not be the best thing since sliced bread but that are very good and very respectable.
As for cobras not so sure whats so impressive about that. Forged internals they can run a lot more boost. LSx are making these numbers with 8-10 PSI.
These blowers might not be the best thing since sliced bread but that are very good and very respectable.
And your input on lsx making the same numbers on 8-10 psi.......your talking about 5.7 litres vs 4.6 and 10.5:1 compression vs 8.5:1.
I never said they werent respectable I just said nowadays there are better options and for 5.7+ lsx they are maxed out insanely quick. They are much better suited on cars where that is the ONLY mod done.
01-01-2013, 11:47 AM
#43
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The issue is yea 500 is it......you add heads,cam, etc and you basically dont gain anything because you cant flow the air to maximize the added flow from the cam and heads.
And your input on lsx making the same numbers on 8-10 psi.......your talking about 5.7 litres vs 4.6 and 10.5:1 compression vs 8.5:1.
I never said they werent respectable I just said nowadays there are better options and for 5.7+ lsx they are maxed out insanely quick. They are much better suited on cars where that is the ONLY mod done.
And your input on lsx making the same numbers on 8-10 psi.......your talking about 5.7 litres vs 4.6 and 10.5:1 compression vs 8.5:1.
I never said they werent respectable I just said nowadays there are better options and for 5.7+ lsx they are maxed out insanely quick. They are much better suited on cars where that is the ONLY mod done.
01-05-2013, 09:12 AM
#44
Well said Mike,
The saga continues:
I've not yet been able to get all of the work done that I mentioned earlier however, I was able to replace my manual tensioner with the HD tensioner from ECS. In addition, we put a carbonite coating on my upper pulley. Very impressed with the changes, it seems that there was belt slip even in the lower rpm range as I can actually feel the difference as the boost kicks in even harder & earlier than before. This would have gone unnoticed if it wasn't for the issues that we are trying to cure. Here's the rub, I now have slippage in the rear pulleys. Given that this is in an FBody, the rear belt change and tightening is not simple maintenance. This has now officially become a PITA !!!
Still worth it YES however, as Mike13 mentioned there are more efficient options available. I will post again when this is complete.
The saga continues:
I've not yet been able to get all of the work done that I mentioned earlier however, I was able to replace my manual tensioner with the HD tensioner from ECS. In addition, we put a carbonite coating on my upper pulley. Very impressed with the changes, it seems that there was belt slip even in the lower rpm range as I can actually feel the difference as the boost kicks in even harder & earlier than before. This would have gone unnoticed if it wasn't for the issues that we are trying to cure. Here's the rub, I now have slippage in the rear pulleys. Given that this is in an FBody, the rear belt change and tightening is not simple maintenance. This has now officially become a PITA !!!
Still worth it YES however, as Mike13 mentioned there are more efficient options available. I will post again when this is complete.
06-09-2013, 01:53 PM
#46
For anybody interested in the Saga ... I'm back. Sorry for the delay I had set back since my last post. Before I could get back to the shop to make the modifications I had a lifter failure and it took out my cam. Fresh build is done and ready to install this week. Before I get into the new mods and request advice I'd like to address the cause of my engine failure. Recently I read a thread on this site titled " important oil information for anyone". I read it before its too late. See link below : Read it !!
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...?highlight=Oil
It seems that what I thought was a great protective oil ( mobil1 ) was missing the necessary additives. The lack of lubricant actually caused my lifters to exessivily wear my cam lobes until one lifter finally gave out. The #8 gave out however, after dismantling we found all of the lobes to have exessive wear.
( a boat load of $ and a wife that dosent understand my obsession with this money pit as she calls it ) we are ready to install this week.
What we did find was that my rear pulleys were not slipping at all. It was sill the front slipping after 5200 rpm. I finally broke down and installed an 8 rib system.
New mods include.
1. 8 rib pulley system. Overdrive balancer 8", 3.1" upper pulley. If this slips ... There is no justice left in this Universe. I will be spinning the little sewing machine 500 rpm fast than before ( I know ... IATs ). It will spin @ 16,774 rpm @ 6500 ( that's as fast as I am willing to go ). Should see an extra 1 lb of boost from that alone. ( not that boost is a measure of power ... But noteworthy None the less).
2. Cam: I felt that my previous cam was too big for what I was using it for. Hard to tune & bad street manners. I went with something specced for the magie 112.
22X, 23X, .600 on a 114+2 LSA. Supposedly will have great drivability and still provide good power as well as that nasty lope that I have grown to know & love! ( not sure how the boost will react to this change as the cam is smaller and just a little less overlap ... My guess is a little more restrictive creating a little more boost) here again ... The engine will breath less but have more boost/ a trade off as it pertains to power. My thoughts are that a cam made for the LS2 with a 112 on top should perform better than the previous.
3. This next mod could be a bit controversial. Compression. I was previously @ 10.2. After much deliberation and advice from first hand experienced personnel I chose to bring the compression a bit higher than that of a stock LS2. Stock is 10.9 and I am at 11.1. The science & philosophy of low compression & high boost wouldn't work in my case. I Can't create high boost. The advice was to create as much safe power Naturally as the PD blowers respond well to high compression anyway. In addition, the more simplified thinking was that many ,,, many stock LS2 GTO's exist with Maggie's on top & make good safe power. My forged LS2 shouldn't have an issue. ( here again we will need to deal with the increased IATs and pull timing in an effort to avoid knock). The increased compression should offset the retard of timing as it pertains to power.
4. SD tune ( nough said)
5. New fuel system: Dual pumps.
At this point I'd rather this be a discussion and transfer of information, ideas & opinions rather than an argument over HP. We have covered the limitations of the " little ant that could" the 112.
For the last mod... I have to decide to keep the N20 ( 100 shot wet) to feed my addiction. Or switch to meth ( Alky Control kit) out of necessity. I won't do both ( for the maniacs out there that will enevitably reply quickly, lol) I do know that my IATs will be somewhat of an issue. Previously they weren't obnoxiously high, about normal for Maggie standards. We intend to make the decision on the fly while we are on the Dyno. If after 3-4 runs and some DD right after show safe temps ( I doubt it) we will stick with the N20. In the past I found that I didn't need it for cooling the charge unless I was ripping through more than 2 gears. If we don't need it out of necessity then it will be for the extra thrill when desired (will be set up with a timing controller so I don't have to drive around with a dumbed down tune to accommodate a retard in timing for the N20). The timing controller can pull out 4* or so only when the system is armed.
Conversely, the meth system may be needed as a safety feature DD. I'm good with this also. I just struggle with the idea of tuning for meth. You know .... If it dosent spray ... You pop !! (I Know N20 has the same associated risks, I just feel more trusting in my fuel system always being there along with a failsafe fuel pressure switch). The other thing that I can't get my mind around is using the meth to simply cool the charge (which is what I intend to do) what confuses me is that if you are spaying Alchol ( fuel) you have to match it with oxygen or you will run fat/rich. If you adjust for it ( your tuning for it ) .... If its not there when it's supposed to be ...POP. Your lean. I will venture a quess that we can tune for it somewhere in the middle so it is not catestrophic if it fails ???
( Alhemist help me out here).
I am all about a safe tune. I would far rather leave a few ponies on table rather than risk another build. I'm hoping this dosent turn into a N20 vs Meth discussion. More of will I absolutely need meth & how to run it if I do.
I welcome all comments.
Patrick
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...?highlight=Oil
It seems that what I thought was a great protective oil ( mobil1 ) was missing the necessary additives. The lack of lubricant actually caused my lifters to exessivily wear my cam lobes until one lifter finally gave out. The #8 gave out however, after dismantling we found all of the lobes to have exessive wear.
( a boat load of $ and a wife that dosent understand my obsession with this money pit as she calls it ) we are ready to install this week.
What we did find was that my rear pulleys were not slipping at all. It was sill the front slipping after 5200 rpm. I finally broke down and installed an 8 rib system.
New mods include.
1. 8 rib pulley system. Overdrive balancer 8", 3.1" upper pulley. If this slips ... There is no justice left in this Universe. I will be spinning the little sewing machine 500 rpm fast than before ( I know ... IATs ). It will spin @ 16,774 rpm @ 6500 ( that's as fast as I am willing to go ). Should see an extra 1 lb of boost from that alone. ( not that boost is a measure of power ... But noteworthy None the less).
2. Cam: I felt that my previous cam was too big for what I was using it for. Hard to tune & bad street manners. I went with something specced for the magie 112.
22X, 23X, .600 on a 114+2 LSA. Supposedly will have great drivability and still provide good power as well as that nasty lope that I have grown to know & love! ( not sure how the boost will react to this change as the cam is smaller and just a little less overlap ... My guess is a little more restrictive creating a little more boost) here again ... The engine will breath less but have more boost/ a trade off as it pertains to power. My thoughts are that a cam made for the LS2 with a 112 on top should perform better than the previous.
3. This next mod could be a bit controversial. Compression. I was previously @ 10.2. After much deliberation and advice from first hand experienced personnel I chose to bring the compression a bit higher than that of a stock LS2. Stock is 10.9 and I am at 11.1. The science & philosophy of low compression & high boost wouldn't work in my case. I Can't create high boost. The advice was to create as much safe power Naturally as the PD blowers respond well to high compression anyway. In addition, the more simplified thinking was that many ,,, many stock LS2 GTO's exist with Maggie's on top & make good safe power. My forged LS2 shouldn't have an issue. ( here again we will need to deal with the increased IATs and pull timing in an effort to avoid knock). The increased compression should offset the retard of timing as it pertains to power.
4. SD tune ( nough said)
5. New fuel system: Dual pumps.
At this point I'd rather this be a discussion and transfer of information, ideas & opinions rather than an argument over HP. We have covered the limitations of the " little ant that could" the 112.
For the last mod... I have to decide to keep the N20 ( 100 shot wet) to feed my addiction. Or switch to meth ( Alky Control kit) out of necessity. I won't do both ( for the maniacs out there that will enevitably reply quickly, lol) I do know that my IATs will be somewhat of an issue. Previously they weren't obnoxiously high, about normal for Maggie standards. We intend to make the decision on the fly while we are on the Dyno. If after 3-4 runs and some DD right after show safe temps ( I doubt it) we will stick with the N20. In the past I found that I didn't need it for cooling the charge unless I was ripping through more than 2 gears. If we don't need it out of necessity then it will be for the extra thrill when desired (will be set up with a timing controller so I don't have to drive around with a dumbed down tune to accommodate a retard in timing for the N20). The timing controller can pull out 4* or so only when the system is armed.
Conversely, the meth system may be needed as a safety feature DD. I'm good with this also. I just struggle with the idea of tuning for meth. You know .... If it dosent spray ... You pop !! (I Know N20 has the same associated risks, I just feel more trusting in my fuel system always being there along with a failsafe fuel pressure switch). The other thing that I can't get my mind around is using the meth to simply cool the charge (which is what I intend to do) what confuses me is that if you are spaying Alchol ( fuel) you have to match it with oxygen or you will run fat/rich. If you adjust for it ( your tuning for it ) .... If its not there when it's supposed to be ...POP. Your lean. I will venture a quess that we can tune for it somewhere in the middle so it is not catestrophic if it fails ???
( Alhemist help me out here).
I am all about a safe tune. I would far rather leave a few ponies on table rather than risk another build. I'm hoping this dosent turn into a N20 vs Meth discussion. More of will I absolutely need meth & how to run it if I do.
I welcome all comments.
Patrick
03-16-2014, 03:53 PM
#49
I was searching for info & came across my old thread. Sorry for the delay in an update. Saga continues:
As far as the build.... I loved it. Past tense. In an effort to avoid valve train issues I was sure to use Joe Gibbs break in oil and JG LS 5/30 there after. Car made great power (520 rwhp 500 TQ ) on a stingy mustang Dyno, drivability was good. The Alky control kit is great. IATs weren't bad compared to previous build. The 8 ribs worked like a charm & boost was 9-10 lbs at peak. By the first oil change I heard a slight tick. I've been here before .... So the hair on the back of my neck went up. Had more than one reputable builder try to diagnose the issue and without any decisive answer. Even chased down possible exhaust leak. Needless to say I know what had to be done ....
Today the top of the motor is off & without pulling the heads yet, I can see at least one lobe of my cam with some very minor scoring on it. The rest that I can see with the valley cover removed look good. I CANT BELIEVE this **** !!!
The blocks coming out & we need to track down the cause. I am going to reavaluate my entire valve train. Is my set up matched properly, springs/ valves rods. Even found some recent info re: faulty cam materials being the possible cause of early deterioration of the lobes. This may be a simple as one lifter being bad. I hoping its as simple as that. We will have it figured out this week. I will post an update for anyone interested.
In between time, I have opportunity to put an F1 on. Swap the old Maggie out for a Procharger. Increase the injectors, have a new cam specced & upgrade to a twin disc clutch. I'm just trying to make lemonade out of lemons. Sometimes a failure can lead to a new adventure. Just wish this rabbit hole didn't cost so much !!!!!!
As far as the build.... I loved it. Past tense. In an effort to avoid valve train issues I was sure to use Joe Gibbs break in oil and JG LS 5/30 there after. Car made great power (520 rwhp 500 TQ ) on a stingy mustang Dyno, drivability was good. The Alky control kit is great. IATs weren't bad compared to previous build. The 8 ribs worked like a charm & boost was 9-10 lbs at peak. By the first oil change I heard a slight tick. I've been here before .... So the hair on the back of my neck went up. Had more than one reputable builder try to diagnose the issue and without any decisive answer. Even chased down possible exhaust leak. Needless to say I know what had to be done ....
Today the top of the motor is off & without pulling the heads yet, I can see at least one lobe of my cam with some very minor scoring on it. The rest that I can see with the valley cover removed look good. I CANT BELIEVE this **** !!!
The blocks coming out & we need to track down the cause. I am going to reavaluate my entire valve train. Is my set up matched properly, springs/ valves rods. Even found some recent info re: faulty cam materials being the possible cause of early deterioration of the lobes. This may be a simple as one lifter being bad. I hoping its as simple as that. We will have it figured out this week. I will post an update for anyone interested.
In between time, I have opportunity to put an F1 on. Swap the old Maggie out for a Procharger. Increase the injectors, have a new cam specced & upgrade to a twin disc clutch. I'm just trying to make lemonade out of lemons. Sometimes a failure can lead to a new adventure. Just wish this rabbit hole didn't cost so much !!!!!!
