What would cause failure
as for the plugs while at the track we pulled #7 plug and the tip was gone on it.
fyi i did not install anything on the car had a shop build the engine and sent to the installer/tuners place they did the install of engine/sc/fuel setup.
so you can see my displeasure in all of this.
so you can see my displeasure in all of this.
Launching!
Joined: Jul 2008
Posts: 205
Likes: 10
From: Newville, PA
With the way your fuel system is set up you have no way to control the pressure at the rails. Basically your rails are only receiving the access run off from your feed line since the regulator is only controlling pressures between it and the tank.
It's something you want to change but I don't think it's your problem here since the drivers side head went first.
It's something you want to change but I don't think it's your problem here since the drivers side head went first.
I would be pissed too if I paid someone to do the work and got these results.
Are you sure the plugs melted? To me it doesn't look like anything got that hot. Seems more like a mechanical issue and not detonation???
After you get this addressed I would recommend changing the fuel setup a bit. Maybe feed both rails from a Y block and have the regulator post fuel rails.
Are you sure the plugs melted? To me it doesn't look like anything got that hot. Seems more like a mechanical issue and not detonation???
After you get this addressed I would recommend changing the fuel setup a bit. Maybe feed both rails from a Y block and have the regulator post fuel rails.
TECH Resident
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 916
Likes: 5
From: Las Vegas, NV
Strangest thing I've seen in a while.
Did you get any input from the builder as to what went wrong? What did he say caused it?
Last edited by HRHohio; May 2, 2013 at 11:28 AM.
I would be pissed too if I paid someone to do the work and got these results.
Are you sure the plugs melted? To me it doesn't look like anything got that hot. Seems more like a mechanical issue and not detonation???
After you get this addressed I would recommend changing the fuel setup a bit. Maybe feed both rails from a Y block and have the regulator post fuel rails.
Are you sure the plugs melted? To me it doesn't look like anything got that hot. Seems more like a mechanical issue and not detonation???
After you get this addressed I would recommend changing the fuel setup a bit. Maybe feed both rails from a Y block and have the regulator post fuel rails.
Even though a lot of people run high HP with a single feed w/crossover setup I don't like the idea...
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Why would an engine shop be liable? If the plugs were indeed melted then there was a failure of the system supporting the engine....not an engine builders problem.
He said the regulator feeds the rails? Thats bass-ackwards. In the pic I cannot see where the other hose coming off the front passenger side fuel rail goes to?? Where? Anyway...... something failed and caused excessive heat. Likely lean + timing. So either the fuel system failed or looking at the pic of the sharp elbow before the TB... it would push more air to the passenger side of the intake where the drivers side runners feed off of making that side a bit leaner and that compounded by the timing on 16psi did it in. Detonation caused the plugs to melt and the peice of plug took out the valve. Thats my theory.
Were your A/F readings taken off of all 8 cyls combined? Be curious to know the difference between banks.
He said the regulator feeds the rails? Thats bass-ackwards. In the pic I cannot see where the other hose coming off the front passenger side fuel rail goes to?? Where? Anyway...... something failed and caused excessive heat. Likely lean + timing. So either the fuel system failed or looking at the pic of the sharp elbow before the TB... it would push more air to the passenger side of the intake where the drivers side runners feed off of making that side a bit leaner and that compounded by the timing on 16psi did it in. Detonation caused the plugs to melt and the peice of plug took out the valve. Thats my theory.
Were your A/F readings taken off of all 8 cyls combined? Be curious to know the difference between banks.
9 Second Club
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 13,616
Likes: 185
From: Norn Iron
Bottom line....
Find a builder and tuner who can resolve everything for you instead of having multiple parties involved.
Melted plugs are detonation or too lean. Burnt valves could be lack of seat time, not helped by detonation.
Pics of the damage might help though.
Find a builder and tuner who can resolve everything for you instead of having multiple parties involved.
Melted plugs are detonation or too lean. Burnt valves could be lack of seat time, not helped by detonation.
Pics of the damage might help though.
TECH Resident
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 916
Likes: 5
From: Las Vegas, NV
Can you provide the following info for us:
Cam specs? (To get opinions on PTV possibility)
Wastegate size? (To rule out boost spike possibility)
I don't think that the 90 elbow before the TB is an atypical setup, pretty common in fact. These results on the other hand are not common. Also, too lean for too long typically results in melted pistons. Again, I don't see any sign of melting anywhere. It's more like physical breakage, which is a possible result of the stress of detonation too. Possible causes:
failed methanol injection pump (have you checked it?)
Clogged meth nozzle
Poor/incorrect fuel setup (agree, its bass-ackwards)
bad batch of gas
tune
Cam specs? (To get opinions on PTV possibility)
Wastegate size? (To rule out boost spike possibility)
I don't think that the 90 elbow before the TB is an atypical setup, pretty common in fact. These results on the other hand are not common. Also, too lean for too long typically results in melted pistons. Again, I don't see any sign of melting anywhere. It's more like physical breakage, which is a possible result of the stress of detonation too. Possible causes:
failed methanol injection pump (have you checked it?)
Clogged meth nozzle
Poor/incorrect fuel setup (agree, its bass-ackwards)
bad batch of gas
tune
It sounds like a shop put everything together.....not the fault of the engine builder but whoever built the whole setup. I agree the fuel system is backwards, but to me I would think the even side would have had damage also if that was the culprit. Or possibly more damage.
Why would an engine shop be liable? If the plugs were indeed melted then there was a failure of the system supporting the engine....not an engine builders problem.
He said the regulator feeds the rails? Thats bass-ackwards. In the pic I cannot see where the other hose coming off the front passenger side fuel rail goes to?? Where? Anyway...... something failed and caused excessive heat. Likely lean + timing. So either the fuel system failed or looking at the pic of the sharp elbow before the TB... it would push more air to the passenger side of the intake where the drivers side runners feed off of making that side a bit leaner and that compounded by the timing on 16psi did it in. Detonation caused the plugs to melt and the peice of plug took out the valve. Thats my theory.
Were your A/F readings taken off of all 8 cyls combined? Be curious to know the difference between banks.
He said the regulator feeds the rails? Thats bass-ackwards. In the pic I cannot see where the other hose coming off the front passenger side fuel rail goes to?? Where? Anyway...... something failed and caused excessive heat. Likely lean + timing. So either the fuel system failed or looking at the pic of the sharp elbow before the TB... it would push more air to the passenger side of the intake where the drivers side runners feed off of making that side a bit leaner and that compounded by the timing on 16psi did it in. Detonation caused the plugs to melt and the peice of plug took out the valve. Thats my theory.
Were your A/F readings taken off of all 8 cyls combined? Be curious to know the difference between banks.
The owner never touched anything on the car
The fuel regulator installed like that caused a lean condition for sure, the reg. cuts off fuel feed to the rails to maintain line pressure. The rails should always be fed first, so that reg can just limit fuel return and not fuel feed to the rails. I've seen this before, works ok on the dyno and then goes lean when making a full pass at the track. For sure if the shop knew what they were doing, that would have never happen. Sorry to hear about that tho.
TECH Resident
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 916
Likes: 5
From: Las Vegas, NV
The tuner is the same shop that did the entire install, but the motor was built elsewhere. If the long block was built wrong it would have blown up on the 1st pass. It's a setup/tune issue. Too much timing/boost on pump even with meth. As mentioned, relying on meth to give u the octane you need is playing with fire.
Something fuel or valvetrain wise had to fail. Your motor is built and 20* timing isnt all that crazy (I run that now on a stock bottom but with E85). 16psi isnt that crazy either. If the tune didnt handle the meth correctly, then i could see this happening, its just weird that its only one side of the motor. I have a hard time believing your plug choice was the problem either, you werent really pushing this hard enough (from what i can tell) to warrant a colder plug.