Set me straight on pump gas
05-28-2013, 09:22 PM
#181
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thats $4.90/gallon ...holy ****... id go thru 55 gallons in a few weeks easy..
Id be afraid inconsistancy would be a problem here. i dont know of anyone really using it in my town. I know several do in indianapolis, which is about an hour directly south of me..
For me, E85 would be great if my car were a track only car. but since itll be on the street 99% of the time, i really have to stick with 93/meth.
Id be afraid inconsistancy would be a problem here. i dont know of anyone really using it in my town. I know several do in indianapolis, which is about an hour directly south of me..
For me, E85 would be great if my car were a track only car. but since itll be on the street 99% of the time, i really have to stick with 93/meth.
05-29-2013, 06:54 AM
#182
And just FYI, everyone already knows that you would have to turn the boost/timing/etc WAY down if all you plan to do is swap to E85 and make no changes in fuel. It just serves no usefulness which is why nobody in their right mind would do it. Say your "experiment" works, what did you prove? That it takes more E85 fuel to keep the same A/F ratio compared to gasoline???? Congrats, that was a waste of time and you made less power because you didn't want to take advantage of E85.....
05-29-2013, 07:04 AM
#183
As I said, for such a low power build, pump or E85 hardly matters. So you're just spouting dribble. 600hp is pretty tame, grow a set and aim higher.
And only an idiot would try to tune and simply retain injector duties at a fixed amount.
Just do the bloody thing right and build a fuel system appropriate for the build
And only an idiot would try to tune and simply retain injector duties at a fixed amount.
Just do the bloody thing right and build a fuel system appropriate for the build
Dude, I've been holding back but I gotta say, you're thinking on why people go E85 is all wrong. People who go E85 understand that you need to build the fuel system to support it, otherwise you have to do what you're saying.
Here's what it boils down to. Say you max your motor on pump gas (even with duty cycle at 60%, whatever... who cares) at say 600rwhp@15psi. Lets just say for giggles that you can't risk turning it up any more because of the risk of detonation. THAT is the limiting factor, NOT fuel flow, NOT fuel Injector Duty cycles, NOT fuel pumps. DETONATION.
Now enter E85. Up the fuel injectors to 105 lbs, up the fuel pumps to twin 255s or whatever you need to flow the E85. NOW you can increase the boost and timing to reach upwards of 800 rwhp on the SAME MOTOR that was maxxed on gas. THAT is what everyone is trying to say.
Your point is true.... if you leave everything the same (built to handle the flow needed for pump gas, and at the edge of that limit), you CAN'T handle the flow needed for E85 and you'll never see the benefits of it.
Now if you want high horsepower, you gotta pay to play. You MUST build your supporting systems to a level that is safe for your fuel. Imagine this, somebody says "I want to put a 2000rwhp engine in my Camaro, behind the stock 4l60." That's what your'e saying right now. You want to put this fantastic thing we call E85 into a car that won't support it. BOOM! Just like a 2000 rwhp engine behind a 4l60 will shred it.
If you only want a 600 rwhp car, build it for that, Stevieturbo is right, you can easilly get there on gas. Great. That's about as much as you'll get on pump gas before you start to see detonation. You will have maxxed out the potential of the motor (Heads, cam, intake, pistons, etc).
Now when you're ready to push that SAME MOTOR (Heads, cam, intake, pistons, etc) to 800+ rwhp, you're gong to have to man up and buy a fuel system that will support it. Otherwise, you'll have to do what you're saying and de-tune the system because you can't supply the fuel it needs.
Regardless, your ENGINE has more potential with E85 that it does with pump gas, when supporting systems (fuel) are build correctly. THAT is the point everyone is trying to get across.
Here's what it boils down to. Say you max your motor on pump gas (even with duty cycle at 60%, whatever... who cares) at say 600rwhp@15psi. Lets just say for giggles that you can't risk turning it up any more because of the risk of detonation. THAT is the limiting factor, NOT fuel flow, NOT fuel Injector Duty cycles, NOT fuel pumps. DETONATION.
Now enter E85. Up the fuel injectors to 105 lbs, up the fuel pumps to twin 255s or whatever you need to flow the E85. NOW you can increase the boost and timing to reach upwards of 800 rwhp on the SAME MOTOR that was maxxed on gas. THAT is what everyone is trying to say.
Your point is true.... if you leave everything the same (built to handle the flow needed for pump gas, and at the edge of that limit), you CAN'T handle the flow needed for E85 and you'll never see the benefits of it.
Now if you want high horsepower, you gotta pay to play. You MUST build your supporting systems to a level that is safe for your fuel. Imagine this, somebody says "I want to put a 2000rwhp engine in my Camaro, behind the stock 4l60." That's what your'e saying right now. You want to put this fantastic thing we call E85 into a car that won't support it. BOOM! Just like a 2000 rwhp engine behind a 4l60 will shred it.
If you only want a 600 rwhp car, build it for that, Stevieturbo is right, you can easilly get there on gas. Great. That's about as much as you'll get on pump gas before you start to see detonation. You will have maxxed out the potential of the motor (Heads, cam, intake, pistons, etc).
Now when you're ready to push that SAME MOTOR (Heads, cam, intake, pistons, etc) to 800+ rwhp, you're gong to have to man up and buy a fuel system that will support it. Otherwise, you'll have to do what you're saying and de-tune the system because you can't supply the fuel it needs.
Regardless, your ENGINE has more potential with E85 that it does with pump gas, when supporting systems (fuel) are build correctly. THAT is the point everyone is trying to get across.
05-29-2013, 09:42 AM
#185
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You only pull timing on a nitrous timing to do what? AVOID DETONATION , because of the lack of octane available. You would make more power on that same 200 shot if you could keep the timing where it was , or better yet, increase it to take advantage of a higher octane fuel.
05-29-2013, 09:50 AM
#186
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agreed..the advantage of E85 is the ability to run a more agressive timing curve with XXX amount of boost without detonation. same principle as any race fuel except ethanol has a different makeup wich requires more fuel volume. with the correct E85 setup some ditch their intercooler setups and make more power. pump gas blowthrough carb guys can run without an intercooler...ive seen frost on a non intercooled E85 blowthrough carb intakr manifold..while the carb by design and the way it atomizes fuel allows for chemical intercooling in itself no matter the fuel, its obvious that the E85 takes it above and beyond what regular pump gas can do.
regardless of how the OP wants to run it, he wil find out that pulling timing to make up for the the lack of a fuel system to support E85 will do nothing but cause problems and dissapoint..
regardless of how the OP wants to run it, he wil find out that pulling timing to make up for the the lack of a fuel system to support E85 will do nothing but cause problems and dissapoint..
05-29-2013, 09:54 AM
#187
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tuning for nitrous and tuning for boost are two different animals...
my setup will be higher. I was just using round numbers that were close to make an example. Building a high flowing fuel system to run a fuel that is practically unobtainable to see marginal gains is not worth it to me.
ok, let me put this to you this way. When doing a nitrous setup, you pill a wet kit for say a 150 shot. What do you do tuning wise? Pull timing. Say you pill it up to 200. You start seeing 1/2* of kr. Do you put smaller pills back in, or pull a little more timing to handle this amount of air/fuel? I don't know about you guys, but I always just pulled a little timing to take full advantage of the shot. Did I lose some "potential power" by pulling timing out. yeah probably, but it helps the engine live, and in the end still makes more power. You guys are acting like pulling timing will make the motor lay over or something. That isn't how it works. It has been known fact in the nitrous world for years. You add more air and fuel, yes you gotta pull timing. BUT the increased volume of air and fuel is what is making the higher power, not running higher timing
ok, let me put this to you this way. When doing a nitrous setup, you pill a wet kit for say a 150 shot. What do you do tuning wise? Pull timing. Say you pill it up to 200. You start seeing 1/2* of kr. Do you put smaller pills back in, or pull a little more timing to handle this amount of air/fuel? I don't know about you guys, but I always just pulled a little timing to take full advantage of the shot. Did I lose some "potential power" by pulling timing out. yeah probably, but it helps the engine live, and in the end still makes more power. You guys are acting like pulling timing will make the motor lay over or something. That isn't how it works. It has been known fact in the nitrous world for years. You add more air and fuel, yes you gotta pull timing. BUT the increased volume of air and fuel is what is making the higher power, not running higher timing
05-29-2013, 10:29 AM
#188
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my setup will be higher. I was just using round numbers that were close to make an example. Building a high flowing fuel system to run a fuel that is practically unobtainable to see marginal gains is not worth it to me.
ok, let me put this to you this way. When doing a nitrous setup, you pill a wet kit for say a 150 shot. What do you do tuning wise? Pull timing. Say you pill it up to 200. You start seeing 1/2* of kr. Do you put smaller pills back in, or pull a little more timing to handle this amount of air/fuel? I don't know about you guys, but I always just pulled a little timing to take full advantage of the shot. Did I lose some "potential power" by pulling timing out. yeah probably, but it helps the engine live, and in the end still makes more power. You guys are acting like pulling timing will make the motor lay over or something. That isn't how it works. It has been known fact in the nitrous world for years. You add more air and fuel, yes you gotta pull timing. BUT the increased volume of air and fuel is what is making the higher power, not running higher timing
ok, let me put this to you this way. When doing a nitrous setup, you pill a wet kit for say a 150 shot. What do you do tuning wise? Pull timing. Say you pill it up to 200. You start seeing 1/2* of kr. Do you put smaller pills back in, or pull a little more timing to handle this amount of air/fuel? I don't know about you guys, but I always just pulled a little timing to take full advantage of the shot. Did I lose some "potential power" by pulling timing out. yeah probably, but it helps the engine live, and in the end still makes more power. You guys are acting like pulling timing will make the motor lay over or something. That isn't how it works. It has been known fact in the nitrous world for years. You add more air and fuel, yes you gotta pull timing. BUT the increased volume of air and fuel is what is making the higher power, not running higher timing
Here's what it boils down to. Say you max your motor on pump gas (even with duty cycle at 60%, whatever... who cares) at say 600rwhp@15psi. Lets just say for giggles that you can't risk turning it up any more because of the risk of detonation. THAT is the limiting factor, NOT fuel flow, NOT fuel Injector Duty cycles, NOT fuel pumps. DETONATION.
Now enter E85. Up the fuel injectors to 105 lbs, up the fuel pumps to twin 255s or whatever you need to flow the E85. NOW you can increase the boost and timing to reach upwards of 800 rwhp on the SAME MOTOR that was maxxed on gas. THAT is what everyone is trying to say.
If you only want a 600 rwhp car, build it for that, Stevieturbo is right, you can easilly get there on gas. Great. That's about as much as you'll get on pump gas before you start to see detonation. You will have maxxed out the potential of the motor (Heads, cam, intake, pistons, etc).
Regardless, your ENGINE has more potential with E85 that it does with pump gas, when supporting systems (fuel) are build correctly. THAT is the point everyone is trying to get across.
I highlighted the points I think you missed.
Also, by your logic, you can force as much pump gas and air as you want as long as you pull enough timing. There comes a point of diminishing returns. i.e. Maxxed out engine.
Again... at that point, you have MORE potential still with E85.
05-29-2013, 11:33 AM
#190
TECH Resident
http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp...e/viewall.html
For those who still understand octane at this point.... here's an interesting article on Methanol/Water injection and it's benefits if you can't get E85 or still want to run pump gas.
http://www.snowperformance.net/produ...cle-pdf-42.pdf
Very interesting reads.
Last edited by HRHohio; 05-29-2013 at 11:44 AM.
05-29-2013, 06:30 PM
#192
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That should really shut this down. People are going to search and find this thread. If they don't read through they might actually think that you can make more power on pump gas. This could cost some one a blown engine. We all know badhonbre is dead wrong. Honestly i think he does to but is to proud to admit it. Close this down!!!
05-29-2013, 07:28 PM
#195
TECH Resident
If you accept 1000 hp CRANK or ~850 RWHP, I don't see a problem with it. If you avoid Methanol/Water, I think you'll have a hard time getting there safely.
Here's another similar thread without all the confusion. LOL.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...-pump-gas.html
Or, just grab your checkbook.... NRE --> http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...x/viewall.html
The consensus on that thread is "Yes, it can be done". Good luck!
Last edited by HRHohio; 05-29-2013 at 07:35 PM. Reason: Added other post.
05-29-2013, 07:32 PM
#196
TECH Resident
That's what happens when someone throws a wrench in the works... everyone pitches in to fix it. LOL
05-30-2013, 05:16 AM
#197
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Hopefully to help answer your question a little, I think you can get there on pump gas, but you'll need methanol/water. That's with all the best stuff on your engine taken care of... start with a 6.0L or better, Heads/Cam setup, forged pistons, fuel system, etc.
If you accept 1000 hp CRANK or ~850 RWHP, I don't see a problem with it. If you avoid Methanol/Water, I think you'll have a hard time getting there safely.
Here's another similar thread without all the confusion. LOL.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...-pump-gas.html
Or, just grab your checkbook.... NRE --> http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...x/viewall.html
The consensus on that thread is "Yes, it can be done". Good luck!
If you accept 1000 hp CRANK or ~850 RWHP, I don't see a problem with it. If you avoid Methanol/Water, I think you'll have a hard time getting there safely.
Here's another similar thread without all the confusion. LOL.
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...-pump-gas.html
Or, just grab your checkbook.... NRE --> http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...x/viewall.html
The consensus on that thread is "Yes, it can be done". Good luck!
05-30-2013, 08:42 AM
#198
TECH Resident
I'm not dead set on 1000 rwhp . If I'm within 150hp those are pretty wild numbers. I've been looking into water/meth and my only concern is how long a tank lasts. I know you can get bigger tanks, but it i have to fill 2.5 gallons of water/meth every 20 gallons of fuel it will suck. Anyone use a kit on the street with a high hp application?
Everyone has an opinion on what to use, so talk with your tuner about what he's comfortable tuning on (straight meth, 50/50, or -30F) and do some more research on that.
05-30-2013, 09:56 AM
#199
I'm not dead set on 1000 rwhp . If I'm within 150hp those are pretty wild numbers. I've been looking into water/meth and my only concern is how long a tank lasts. I know you can get bigger tanks, but it i have to fill 2.5 gallons of water/meth every 20 gallons of fuel it will suck. Anyone use a kit on the street with a high hp application?
05-30-2013, 12:41 PM
#200
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I'm not dead set on 1000 rwhp . If I'm within 150hp those are pretty wild numbers. I've been looking into water/meth and my only concern is how long a tank lasts. I know you can get bigger tanks, but it i have to fill 2.5 gallons of water/meth every 20 gallons of fuel it will suck. Anyone use a kit on the street with a high hp application?
IMO all your questions have been answered
I would say yes you can achieve your power goals on pump gas alone. However, it will require very good intercooling and a lower compression than many might like. This will keep you away from detonation to allow you to use a sensible amount of ignition timing to make the power. Is it the preferred option ? not generally, but it will still work, and has worked for others for decades across many different engines.
And has already been answered several times. Meth usage/longevity depends on pump, nozzle size, tank size, when you inject and ultimately how often you actually put your foot down in such a manner as to actually be injecting.
I generally only inject water/meth when racing, so a 6-7 litre tank on the street would last me forever...simply because I dont use it there. I already have far more power than I do traction on the street, so the added power via meth is of no use.
When racing with suitable tyres and high traction surface, then I can make better use of any extra power.
IMO a 2.5-3 gallon tank ( AIS tanks are the best
) should last you a very long time, unless you drive like a complete lunatic all the time.