Set me straight on pump gas
05-22-2013, 08:35 PM
#142
Badhombre, i get what you are trying to say here but i seriously wonder why. Per unit weight, gasoline contains more energy(100,000+kJ) than ethanol(~70,000kJ). Gasoline burns hotter and in the case of your arguement, pump 93, obviously has a lower octane rating than ethanol (im not even going to mention the cooling characteristics of ethanol).
Say you are trying to maximize your "performance" tune, you will be limited by 93 farrrrr before ethanol limits you. The extra heat of combustion of gasoline seriously hurts you when you are trying to make the most of your setup.
Example
Say you are on the verge of seeing knock at 14* timing at 8psi on 93. the car makes 500hp.
Switch to E85, dial in your AFR and at 14* timing at 8psi should make the same power (with 30% more fuel) but who cares, seriously?? you are no longer knock limited and can SAFELY throw more timing at it. If you pulled the plugs on it, theyd be screaming for more timing while if you are on 93 theyd be screaming at you to back off.
Why in the world do you care about comparing fuel systems? i spent mayyybe an extra $500 dollars to run E85 compared to pump gas.
On the exact same setup you will always be able to get better performance out the ethanol car when compared to the 93. All your "experiment" will prove is that your fuel system is in adequate.
Say you are trying to maximize your "performance" tune, you will be limited by 93 farrrrr before ethanol limits you. The extra heat of combustion of gasoline seriously hurts you when you are trying to make the most of your setup.
Example
Say you are on the verge of seeing knock at 14* timing at 8psi on 93. the car makes 500hp.
Switch to E85, dial in your AFR and at 14* timing at 8psi should make the same power (with 30% more fuel) but who cares, seriously?? you are no longer knock limited and can SAFELY throw more timing at it. If you pulled the plugs on it, theyd be screaming for more timing while if you are on 93 theyd be screaming at you to back off.
Why in the world do you care about comparing fuel systems? i spent mayyybe an extra $500 dollars to run E85 compared to pump gas.
On the exact same setup you will always be able to get better performance out the ethanol car when compared to the 93. All your "experiment" will prove is that your fuel system is in adequate.
Last edited by Ryans99ls1; 05-22-2013 at 11:53 PM.
05-25-2013, 11:08 AM
#151
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watch out...he knows what he is doing....stock truck injectors, junk turbo and a 5 second 60 foot......
the fact your SBC on a 150 gun couldnt hardly run a 12 second pass is embarrassing enough i guess..now you want to show your *** to folks who have been messing with alternative fuels and forced induction before you were even a twinkle in your daddy's eye....and if you know so much about EFI, fuels, boost etc, you sure do ask alot of noob questions and my god, your truck proves that you know nothing...you come on here trying to correct tuners and builders of LSX platforms that make a nice living of it and you go on sites like yellowbullet doing the same **** telling all the carb guys they are stupid and slow....
you can go ahead and bench race me, ryan or martin all you want...fact is that we have all actually been as fast and faster than you think you are....save your BS for ricer forum dude...
the fact your SBC on a 150 gun couldnt hardly run a 12 second pass is embarrassing enough i guess..now you want to show your *** to folks who have been messing with alternative fuels and forced induction before you were even a twinkle in your daddy's eye....and if you know so much about EFI, fuels, boost etc, you sure do ask alot of noob questions and my god, your truck proves that you know nothing...you come on here trying to correct tuners and builders of LSX platforms that make a nice living of it and you go on sites like yellowbullet doing the same **** telling all the carb guys they are stupid and slow....
you can go ahead and bench race me, ryan or martin all you want...fact is that we have all actually been as fast and faster than you think you are....save your BS for ricer forum dude...
05-25-2013, 04:45 PM
#152
Badhombre, i get what you are trying to say here but i seriously wonder why. Per unit weight, gasoline contains more energy(100,000+kJ) than ethanol(~70,000kJ). Gasoline burns hotter and in the case of your arguement, pump 93, obviously has a lower octane rating than ethanol (im not even going to mention the cooling characteristics of ethanol).
Say you are trying to maximize your "performance" tune, you will be limited by 93 farrrrr before ethanol limits you. The extra heat of combustion of gasoline seriously hurts you when you are trying to make the most of your setup.
Example
Say you are on the verge of seeing knock at 14* timing at 8psi on 93. the car makes 500hp.
Switch to E85, dial in your AFR and at 14* timing at 8psi should make the same power (with 30% more fuel) but who cares, seriously?? you are no longer knock limited and can SAFELY throw more timing at it. If you pulled the plugs on it, theyd be screaming for more timing while if you are on 93 theyd be screaming at you to back off.
Why in the world do you care about comparing fuel systems? i spent mayyybe an extra $500 dollars to run E85 compared to pump gas.
On the exact same setup you will always be able to get better performance out the ethanol car when compared to the 93. All your "experiment" will prove is that your fuel system is in adequate.
Say you are trying to maximize your "performance" tune, you will be limited by 93 farrrrr before ethanol limits you. The extra heat of combustion of gasoline seriously hurts you when you are trying to make the most of your setup.
Example
Say you are on the verge of seeing knock at 14* timing at 8psi on 93. the car makes 500hp.
Switch to E85, dial in your AFR and at 14* timing at 8psi should make the same power (with 30% more fuel) but who cares, seriously?? you are no longer knock limited and can SAFELY throw more timing at it. If you pulled the plugs on it, theyd be screaming for more timing while if you are on 93 theyd be screaming at you to back off.
Why in the world do you care about comparing fuel systems? i spent mayyybe an extra $500 dollars to run E85 compared to pump gas.
On the exact same setup you will always be able to get better performance out the ethanol car when compared to the 93. All your "experiment" will prove is that your fuel system is in adequate.
Everyone is making this stuff out like it is some sort of magical stuff. "Switch to e85, use more of it an make more power!". Well, duh... For a guy trying to make the most of a setup that may already be maxed out, switching to e85 will not help. It has been a common misconception lately that just switching to it will yeild power gains and this is not that case. I don't see why you guys are downplaying the argument of a larger fuel system. have you seen what A1000 pumps and 160lb injectors are going for? If know is your limiting factor, why not use meth? Or a better intercooler? Find ways of bringing IAT's and cylinder temps down. E85 is not the only answer. If you guys cannot understand this, then I am sorry for you. Maybe my experiment will clear some thing up for you then
05-25-2013, 05:03 PM
#153
9 Second Club
You cant even put a wastegate together correctly, and you're trying to argue about what fuel is best ???
You cannot be serious ?
If E85 is available, you'd have to fall into two categories.
1. You are low powered so wouldnt need or benefit from it it in the first place. I suspect you fall into this category
Or
2. You'd be an idiot not to make use of it, simply because it makes power more easily and safely than pump fuel ever will. Any cost is negligible compared to race fuel etc. So value for money, it wins hands down.
And if the fuel is too expensive...easy. Just run a setup with a flex fuel sensor for tuning adjustments then you can safely use any combination of pump/E85 as you desire.
It's a no brainer, if you have a brain to understand it.
You cannot be serious ?
If E85 is available, you'd have to fall into two categories.
1. You are low powered so wouldnt need or benefit from it it in the first place. I suspect you fall into this category
Or
2. You'd be an idiot not to make use of it, simply because it makes power more easily and safely than pump fuel ever will. Any cost is negligible compared to race fuel etc. So value for money, it wins hands down.
And if the fuel is too expensive...easy. Just run a setup with a flex fuel sensor for tuning adjustments then you can safely use any combination of pump/E85 as you desire.
It's a no brainer, if you have a brain to understand it.
05-25-2013, 06:55 PM
#154
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You should just post what your experiment is. If you never share results, we will just assume it has failed. At least if you share your idea ahead of time, maybe someone will share previous attempts at a similar idea, and save you time and money on R&D, or prevent you from wasting money on some part that wont work. If the point is going to be proving you can make more power on 93 octane pump gas than E85, its already a flawed experiment. Its been scientifically proven, both in theory and in application.
05-25-2013, 11:16 PM
#155
I have to say....this thread made me smile. It's amazing that its been explained as clearly and broadly as can be, and it has not sunk in that this is cheap, cool burning, detonation controlling, badassery from a pump for $2.xx a gallon.
Last edited by I8UR4RD; 05-25-2013 at 11:24 PM.
05-26-2013, 01:18 AM
#156
Just because you've brought down iat's does not get over the fact that for a given cylinder pressure created by a certain VE you need a given octane rating. What about guys in heads up classes running A2W I/C's with IAT's in the 60-80 degree range that still have to run C16, Q16, VP Import etc.? I guess pump gas would work there too right?
No offense, but not everyone has a clapped out farm truck and doesn't want to spend money on going faster than the next guy. I think it's cool what you're doing on the cheap, but not everyone is like you. If that weren't obvious already.
No offense, but not everyone has a clapped out farm truck and doesn't want to spend money on going faster than the next guy. I think it's cool what you're doing on the cheap, but not everyone is like you. If that weren't obvious already.
05-26-2013, 08:07 AM
#157
well I appreciate you actually using logic and examples instead of coming in here senselessly blasting me. This is what all these other bandwagon/skim readers are not understanding; I know e85 has more potential power, when used in higher quantity than gas. That is exactly my point. But everyone's answer is "well just upgrade your fuel system". To the average guy who doesn't want to spend a bunch of money and upgrade his fuel system to make a little more power, this is a big deal. Or in a case like mine where the significant loss in fuel economy is not worth the gains when there is one place within 50 miles of you that sells the fuel.
Everyone is making this stuff out like it is some sort of magical stuff. "Switch to e85, use more of it an make more power!". Well, duh... For a guy trying to make the most of a setup that may already be maxed out, switching to e85 will not help. It has been a common misconception lately that just switching to it will yeild power gains and this is not that case. I don't see why you guys are downplaying the argument of a larger fuel system. have you seen what A1000 pumps and 160lb injectors are going for? If know is your limiting factor, why not use meth? Or a better intercooler? Find ways of bringing IAT's and cylinder temps down. E85 is not the only answer. If you guys cannot understand this, then I am sorry for you. Maybe my experiment will clear some thing up for you then
Everyone is making this stuff out like it is some sort of magical stuff. "Switch to e85, use more of it an make more power!". Well, duh... For a guy trying to make the most of a setup that may already be maxed out, switching to e85 will not help. It has been a common misconception lately that just switching to it will yeild power gains and this is not that case. I don't see why you guys are downplaying the argument of a larger fuel system. have you seen what A1000 pumps and 160lb injectors are going for? If know is your limiting factor, why not use meth? Or a better intercooler? Find ways of bringing IAT's and cylinder temps down. E85 is not the only answer. If you guys cannot understand this, then I am sorry for you. Maybe my experiment will clear some thing up for you then
05-26-2013, 08:24 AM
#158
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like i mentioned in a PM...please humble yourself and ask questions on here. you will get far better responses when asking questions. you have the potential to have a 600hp truck that would be a solid 10 second truck or quicker.
there are alot of folks on here willing to help you. but if each thread turns into an argument then the information you are looking for wont be given.
there are alot of folks on here willing to help you. but if each thread turns into an argument then the information you are looking for wont be given.
05-26-2013, 11:39 AM
#159
fyi he said he put a glass of e85 somewhere sitting out for a 3-4 days and when he checked it it had water in it. I would think that it had absorbed moisture in that time since it wasnt properly contained. you have to keep it sealed or it will absorb water like a sponge. so the "experiment" due to the contamination and environment the media was in, gives him the botched result. 
05-26-2013, 12:13 PM
#160
fyi he said he put a glass of e85 somewhere sitting out for a 3-4 days and when he checked it it had water in it. I would think that it had absorbed moisture in that time since it wasnt properly contained. you have to keep it sealed or it will absorb water like a sponge. so the "experiment" due to the contamination and environment the media was in, gives him the botched result.
You seem to not want to give everyone else credit just like you think they're not giving you credit. Pot meet kettle.... All of the major posters in this thread are agreeing with you that it takes more e85 to maintain the same lambda. Shoot, they're even agreeing that gasoline contains MORE energy per unit. AND they agree that you need a larger fuel system because of this. However, what you're failing to grasp is that due to the benefits of e85 over 93, you can run Substantially more boost or timing or compression and still keep detonation at bay. People have gained over 100hp or more on a proper e85 setup over pump gas. Did their fuel system cost more, yup. Say it cost them $1000-1500 extra in fuel components over a PROPERLY done pump gas fuel system and they were able to make an extra 100-150hp due to running more boost/timing/compression..... $10/hp sure is cheap. Nobody is saying just by switching to e85 and leaving everything else the same will net you a large power increase. They already agreed that gasoline has more energy. if the argument of not going to e85 is because you want to keep everything else the same, well then you better go back to the basics and start listening and stop waiting for others to finish talking so you can talk. End of story.
In the end it all comes down to the tuning, which is what I said to begin with that seemed to **** everyone off. I am waiting on my injectors to arrive, so I can get back to the dyno and see what happens. luckily my dyno shop is just a few miles from the one station with e85 here. So I will be able to make pump gas pulls, and have some cans on e85 handy to swap